Is it okay to blame God for stuff that is his fault?

[GodsGrace]

Which post sorry?

Post 136, 137, 138

You told me my exegeting was terrible and that THIS is the problem.
The problem is that some of us come onto these Forums to argue instead of to have a conversation.
YOU asked about Genesis 3:1
I replied as to the animal being mentioned there.
I did NOT exegete anything.
YOU answered telling me my exegeting is terrible.

And it should end there?

No.

You should tell me exactly WHAT I exegeted and WHY it's terrible.

It would be appreciated instead of having a negative comment thrown at me for no reason.

 

[Brakelite]

Can I expect Him to be better than the terrible definition of Him given by the church? (and you) ???

Yes, you can, and you must. The promise is that God can, depending on our faith, accomplish in each one of us exceedingly more than we could possibly ask or think. That promise comes from a God who is exceedingly more wonderful, gracious, and merciful than we could possibly ask or think.

Sadly, we have been infected by the fruits of Cain's offering which devolved into pagan sacrifices where the offenders offered sacrifices to appease an angry vengeful spiteful god bent on punishment and suffering to the offender. This utterly false paradigm was Satan's counterfeit to the real truthful wonderful line of sacrifice which Abraham attested to and witnessed, saying, "God shall provide Himself a sacrifice my son".
The truth is that God took upon Himself the shame of our sin and selfishness. Shame is unbearable. Attested to by Adam and Eve who both tried to pass on their shame to others. Shame brings people to suicide. But rather than require Adam and Eve to suffer and spend the rest of their lives appeasing an angry bitter resentful God, He promised hope and release.

“4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. ”
Isaiah 53:4-12 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

What sustained the Son of God during His life of toil and sacrifice? He saw the results of the travail of His soul and was satisfied. Looking into eternity, He beheld the happiness of those who through His humiliation had received pardon and everlasting life. His ear caught the shout of the redeemed. He heard the ransomed ones singing the song of Moses and the Lamb.

Here is a God of such love, devotion, and commitment, to our redemption that He took upon Himself the full cost. By grace we are saved. Nothing was withheld in the plan of salvation. God gave everything that we might be saved. What do we give in return? We question His integrity. We mistrust His plans. We don't believe His word or His promises. And we accuse Him of being a tyrant of far greater evil than the worst of human sinners could even dream of by accepting and believing the worst of interpretations of the more obscure texts in direct contradistinction to the numerous texts that clearly declare the precise opposite.
So yes. You can fully expect God to be far better than what the church and any individual portrays.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Post 136, 137, 138

You told me my exegeting was terrible and that THIS is the problem.
The problem is that some of us come onto these Forums to argue instead of to have a conversation.
YOU asked about Genesis 3:1
I replied as to the animal being mentioned there.
I did NOT exegete anything.
YOU answered telling me my exegeting is terrible.

And it should end there?

No.

You should tell me exactly WHAT I exegeted and WHY it's terrible.

It would be appreciated instead of having a negative comment thrown at me for no reason.

Ah yes the animal which God created - more cunning and with voice.

The reason for its creation was to test the first pair. God required another voice other than His Word to see if they would choose obedience.

He did the same to His Son in Matthew 4.

 

[Brakelite]

Having a correct theology and understanding truth offers us spiritual maturity. But through our relationship with Him, God desires for us a wholeness of not just spiritual maturity, but also emotional and mental health, which in turn can radically improve even physical health. One however could discern that if one isn't mentally or emotionally mature, it is likely that his theology, the foundation of which all the above are dependant, is wrong.

 

[St. SteVen]

Having a correct theology and understanding truth offers us spiritual maturity. But through our relationship with Him, God desires for us a wholeness of not just spiritual maturity, but also emotional and mental health, which in turn can radically improve even physical health. One however could discern that if one isn't mentally or emotionally mature, it is likely that his theology, the foundation of which all the above are dependant, is wrong.

No one is saved by doctrine, or religious practice.
God wants a personal relationship with us.
Spiritual maturity comes as a result of a thriving relationship with God.

[

 

[Brakelite]

No one is saved by doctrine, or religious practice.
God wants a personal relationship with us.
Spiritual maturity comes as a result of a thriving relationship with God.

[

I wasn't talking about salvation. I was talking about spiritual, mental, emotional and physical health and well being. But I agree with you. Relationship is essential. Correct theology naturally follows, then growth and maturity. If however, following from recent posts, our understanding of theology regarding the nature of God is wrong, how can we hope for health and well-being mentally or emotionally?

 

[St. SteVen]

I wasn't talking about salvation. I was talking about spiritual, mental, emotional and physical health and well being. But I agree with you. Relationship is essential. Correct theology naturally follows, then growth and maturity. If however, following from recent posts, our understanding of theology regarding the nature of God is wrong, how can we hope for health and well-being mentally or emotionally?

Agree.

[

 

[Brakelite]

To add to that, if we are a part of a religious system that allows us to be comfortable doing theology and treating people like garbage, you probably don't have the right theology because you cannot separate spiritual maturity with relational and emotional maturity. I think we have both seen on this thread and elsewhere the negative affects of that.

 

[Brakelite]

Agree.

[

I liked his testimony to how God led him in his ministry to others. His book however, and the theological conclusions one draws from the story and his perspective of God's nature, demands questions. I remember the controversy the book engendered after its sale. I understand now much of where you are coming from in your questioning of scripture and your reliance on the holy Spirit above that of the Bible. I rather think the Bible to be more reliable than our intuition or gut feelings when it comes to our perception of the nature of God. I think scripture must be the final arbiter on that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, you can, and you must. The promise is that God can, depending on our faith, accomplish in each one of us exceedingly more than we could possibly ask or think. That promise comes from a God who is exceedingly more wonderful, gracious, and merciful than we could possibly ask or think.

Sadly, we have been infected by the fruits of Cain's offering which devolved into pagan sacrifices where the offenders offered sacrifices to appease an angry vengeful spiteful god bent on punishment and suffering to the offender. This utterly false paradigm was Satan's counterfeit to the real truthful wonderful line of sacrifice which Abraham attested to and witnessed, saying, "God shall provide Himself a sacrifice my son".
The truth is that God took upon Himself the shame of our sin and selfishness. Shame is unbearable. Attested to by Adam and Eve who both tried to pass on their shame to others. Shame brings people to suicide. But rather than require Adam and Eve to suffer and spend the rest of their lives appeasing an angry bitter resentful God, He promised hope and release.

“4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. ”
Isaiah 53:4-12 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

What sustained the Son of God during His life of toil and sacrifice? He saw the results of the travail of His soul and was satisfied. Looking into eternity, He beheld the happiness of those who through His humiliation had received pardon and everlasting life. His ear caught the shout of the redeemed. He heard the ransomed ones singing the song of Moses and the Lamb.

Here is a God of such love, devotion, and commitment, to our redemption that He took upon Himself the full cost. By grace we are saved. Nothing was withheld in the plan of salvation. God gave everything that we might be saved. What do we give in return? We question His integrity. We mistrust His plans. We don't believe His word or His promises. And we accuse Him of being a tyrant of far greater evil than the worst of human sinners could even dream of by accepting and believing the worst of interpretations of the more obscure texts in direct contradistinction to the numerous texts that clearly declare the precise opposite.
So yes. You can fully expect God to be far better than what the church and any individual portrays.

Great post Brakelite !

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah yes the animal which God created - more cunning and with voice.

The reason for its creation was to test the first pair. God required another voice other than His Word to see if they would choose obedience.

He did the same to His Son in Matthew 4.

Looks like the testing is still going on.

 

[St. SteVen]

I understand now much of where you are coming from in your questioning of scripture and your reliance on the holy Spirit above that of the Bible. I rather think the Bible to be more reliable than our intuition or gut feelings when it comes to our perception of the nature of God. I think scripture must be the final arbiter on that.

Thanks for watching the video.

The problem with scripture being a final authority is that we are referring to an English translation that is highly biased doctrinally and questionable in handling of the ancient languages and culture. It usually supports western cultural standards. Like no women in ministry.

Rather than view the leading of the Spirit as "our intuition or gut feelings" we should learn to hear from God clearly.
I'll admit, I'm still working on that.

That being said however, scripture does come to mind in most situations.

[

 

[Hiddenthings]

Having a correct theology and understanding truth offers us spiritual maturity. But through our relationship with Him, God desires for us a wholeness of not just spiritual maturity, but also emotional and mental health, which in turn can radically improve even physical health. One however could discern that if one isn't mentally or emotionally mature, it is likely that his theology, the foundation of which all the above are dependant, is wrong.

Because many Christians confuse the will of God with that of a fictitious evil being, they miss the true character of God and the relationship He desires as a Father with His child. Consider Job: you claim a fallen angel inflicted his suffering, yet the record itself consistently attributes it to God’s hand, as discipline of a son, not the work of some outside creature.

When this truth is uncovered, how will it shape your understanding of God and His character? You may even conclude that you do not like a God who tests and tries His children.

But read James’s epistle carefully, you won’t find your so-called demonic figure there. What you will find is the truth: that God refines the character of His children through suffering.

2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. James 1:1-4

Was this not true of Job?

Would God attribute such work to a false deity, or to Himself?

And who but God could carefully direct His angels to carry out such a work with the precision and care it required, some unlawful arch-enemy of God?

What will you do when you discover the very basis of your theology is not only wrong but totally misrepresents the work God is doing with you.

In many ways it could be likened to Saul on the road to Damacus moment.

I hope you get that moment.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Brakelite, out of interest, have you noticed that every character in the book of Job attributes Job’s suffering to God’s hand? If none of them acknowledge the existence of the evil being you claim is involved, how does that shape the meaning of the narrative? The reconciliation at the end rests on the lessons Job learned, not on some hidden figure absent from the account. What would be missing from the story if, as you suggest, it were really about God’s arch-enemy meddling and wreaking havoc on His children?

Are you willing to consider that the adversary may actually be insignificant to the story? Perhaps it is more akin to the Cain and Abel account where, in this case, God did not permit Job’s death but instead used his suffering to foreshadow the future sufferings of Christ His Son, much like how Abel’s blood still cries out for vengeance.

Leave it with you to ponder.

 

[Brakelite]

The fact that men have been possessed with demons, is clearly stated in the New Testament. The persons thus afflicted were not merely suffering with disease from natural causes. Christ had perfect understanding of that with which He was dealing, and He recognized the direct presence and agency of evil spirits.
A striking example of their number, power, and malignity, and also of the power and mercy of Christ, is given in the Scripture account of the healing of the demoniacs at Gadara. Those wretched maniacs, spurning all restraint, writhing, foaming, raging, were filling the air with their cries, doing violence to themselves, and endangering all who should approach them. Their bleeding and disfigured bodies and distracted minds presented a spectacle well pleasing to the prince of darkness. One of the demons controlling the sufferers declared: “My name is Legion: for we are many.” Mark 5:9. In the Roman army a legion consisted of from three to five thousand men. Satan’s hosts also are marshaled in companies, and the single company to which these demons belonged numbered no less than a legion.
At the command of Jesus the evil spirits departed from their victims, leaving them calmly sitting at the Saviour’s feet, subdued, intelligent, and gentle. But the demons were permitted to sweep a herd of swine into the sea; and to the dwellers of Gadara the loss of these outweighed the blessings which Christ had bestowed, and the divine Healer was entreated to depart. This was the result which Satan designed to secure. By casting the blame of their loss upon Jesus, he aroused the selfish fears of the people and prevented them from listening to His words. Satan is constantly accusing Christians as the cause of loss, misfortune, and suffering, instead of allowing the reproach to fall where it belongs—upon himself and his agents.
But the purposes of Christ were not thwarted. He allowed the evil spirits to destroy the herd of swine as a rebuke to those Jews who were raising these unclean beasts for the sake of gain. Had not Christ restrained the demons, they would have plunged into the sea, not only the swine, but also their keepers and owners. The preservation of both the keepers and the owners was due alone to His power, mercifully exercised for their deliverance. Furthermore, this event was permitted to take place that the disciples might witness the cruel power of Satan upon both man and beast. The Saviour desired His followers to have a knowledge of the foe whom they were to meet, that they might not be deceived and overcome by his devices. It was also His will that the people of that region should behold His power to break the bondage of Satan and release his captives. And though Jesus Himself departed, the men so marvelously delivered, remained to declare the mercy of their Benefactor.
Other instances of a similar nature are recorded in the Scriptures. The daughter of the Syrophoenician woman was grievously vexed with a devil, whom Jesus cast out by His word. (Mark 7:26-30). “One possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb” (Matthew 12:22); a youth who had a dumb spirit, that ofttimes “cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him” (Mark 9:17-27); the maniac who, tormented by “a spirit of an unclean devil” (Luke 4:33-36), disturbed the Sabbath quiet of the synagogue at Capernaum—all were healed by the compassionate Saviour. In nearly every instance, Christ addressed the demon as an intelligent entity, commanding him to come out of his victim and to torment him no more. The worshipers at Capernaum, beholding His mighty power, “were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.” Luke 4:36 GC 514.1 - GC 515.2

 

[Brakelite]

Those possessed with devils are usually represented as being in a condition of great suffering; yet there were exceptions to this rule. For the sake of obtaining supernatural power, some welcomed the satanic influence. These of course had no conflict with the demons. Of this class were those who possessed the spirit of divination,—Simon Magus, Elymas the sorcerer, and the damsel who followed Paul and Silas at Philippi.
None are in greater danger from the influence of evil spirits than those who, notwithstanding the direct and ample testimony of the Scriptures, deny the existence and agency of the devil and his angels. So long as we are ignorant of their wiles, they have almost inconceivable advantage; many give heed to their suggestions while they suppose themselves to be following the dictates of their own wisdom. This is why, as we approach the close of time, when Satan is to work with greatest power to deceive and destroy, he spreads everywhere the belief that he does not exist. It is his policy to conceal himself and his manner of working.
There is nothing that the great deceiver fears so much as that we shall become acquainted with his devices. The better to disguise his real character and purposes, he has caused himself to be so represented as to excite no stronger emotion than ridicule or contempt. He is well pleased to be painted as a ludicrous or loathsome object, misshapen, half animal and half human. He is pleased to hear his name used in sport and mockery by those who think themselves intelligent and well informed.
It is because he has masked himself with consummate skill that the question is so widely asked: “Does such a being really exist?” It is an evidence of his success that theories giving the lie to the plainest testimony of the Scriptures are so generally received in the religious world. And it is because Satan can most readily control the minds of those who are unconscious of his influence, that the word of God gives us so many examples of his malignant work, unveiling before us his secret forces, and thus placing us on our guard against his assaults.
The power and malice of Satan and his host might justly alarm us were it not that we may find shelter and deliverance in the superior power of our Redeemer. We carefully secure our houses with bolts and locks to protect our property and our lives from evil men; but we seldom think of the evil angels who are constantly seeking access to us, and against whose attacks we have, in our own strength, no method of defense. If permitted, they can distract our minds, disorder and torment our bodies, destroy our possessions and our lives. Their only delight is in misery and destruction. Fearful is the condition of those who resist the divine claims and yield to Satan’s temptations, until God gives them up to the control of evil spirits. But those who follow Christ are ever safe under His watchcare. Angels that excel in strength are sent from heaven to protect them. The wicked one cannot break through the guard which God has stationed about His people. GC 516.1 - GC 517.2

 

[Hiddenthings]

The fact that men have been possessed with demons, is clearly stated in the New Testament.

What I mean is that, in the cultural context of the time, illness was often understood as demon possession. Failing to acknowledge this well-documented fact only reinforces a false understanding and simply adopts the cultural norms of that era.

It’s also worth noting for others reading this that your interpretations of the book of Job have not been defended, even as you shift to a new topic. Am I to assume, then, that you do not wish to support your preconceived beliefs drawn from Job?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Those possessed with devils are usually represented as being in a condition of great suffering; yet there were exceptions to this rule.

All of the great suffering in those days came from numerous illnesses, many of which were undiagnosable due to the limited state of medicine at the time.

I remember asking Aunty Jane if, in all her years as a Jehovah’s Witness, she had ever seen the devil literally cast one of her members into prison. She repeatedly avoided the question until, finally, she lost her composure and stopped communicating with me.

The same applies today with what is called demon possession, how many people with extremely rare, undiagnosable illnesses are instead identified as being influenced by some evil, ethereal spirit?

It takes a great deal of critical thinking to recognize that the Scriptures you quickly associate with the “bogeyman” are, in fact, describing illnesses that are well understood today.

It's a matter of you coming to your senses, really.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Brakelite

Patients today who display the same symptoms as those described in the New Testament as cases of “demon possession” often respond to chemotherapy, medication, or other modern treatments. This is significant, because if the condition truly were caused by literal demons, as some suggest, then how could recovery through medical intervention be explained?

Can pills or therapy cast out demons?

The more reasonable explanation is that the people of the first century lacked the medical knowledge we now take for granted. In that cultural context, unexplained illnesses, whether physical or mental were frequently attributed to supernatural causes. Seizures, mental health struggles, or degenerative diseases would have been mysterious and frightening without a framework of biology or neurology to explain them. Since medicine and science were undeveloped, the language of the time reflected their worldview: what could not be explained naturally was often explained supernaturally, as “demon possession.”

In light of this, it is important to recognize that biblical descriptions of demons may reflect the cultural understanding of illness in that era rather than literal spiritual beings invading human bodies. Where ancient societies saw spiritual forces at work, we can now often identify medical conditions, epilepsy, schizophrenia, infections, or even cancer that were beyond their ability to diagnose.

A better question for you to ask is why then did Jesus not correct their understanding?

 

[Brakelite]

What I mean is that, in the cultural context of the time, illness was often understood as demon possession.

So Jesus was wrong and was mentally imprisoned by the context of cultural deceptions?

It’s also worth noting for others reading this that your interpretations of the book of Job have not been defended, even as you shift to a new topic. Am I to assume, then, that you do not wish to support your preconceived beliefs drawn from Job?

It's also worth noting that I didn't interpret Job other than take the book at face value. God addressed Satan as he claimed rulership over the earth. God said you may have limited rule, but Job doesn't belong to you, he's Mine. Satan objected, claiming the only reason Job honoured God was because he owned stuff. God then challenged Job to prove his case. Satan then used various agents... Tribal enemies, and nature, to discourage Job from his faith, to curse God for being down upon him such disasters. Job and his so called friends may have been confused as to who was responsible, but the first 2 chapters reveal the truth.
That isn't interpretation. That's commentary. All I have done is affirmed what is written. I believe the word of God. So yes, my stance on Job stands. I also believe the word of God regarding the NT testimony that demons possessed people, oppressed others, and were successful in turning the hearts and minds of the people against the Son of God and murdered him.
I also affirm all that in my own experience as I have previously shared, and told you that I am not alone in having to stare into the face of evil spiritual powers and recognising my utter helplessness but for the authority we have in Christ.