Is it okay to blame God for stuff that is his fault?

[Brakelite]

@Brakelite

Patients today who display the same symptoms as those described in the New Testament as cases of “demon possession” often respond to chemotherapy, medication, or other modern treatments. This is significant, because if the condition truly were caused by literal demons, as some suggest, then how could recovery through medical intervention be explained?

Can pills or therapy cast out demons?

The more reasonable explanation is that the people of the first century lacked the medical knowledge we now take for granted. In that cultural context, unexplained illnesses, whether physical or mental were frequently attributed to supernatural causes. Seizures, mental health struggles, or degenerative diseases would have been mysterious and frightening without a framework of biology or neurology to explain them. Since medicine and science were undeveloped, the language of the time reflected their worldview: what could not be explained naturally was often explained supernaturally, as “demon possession.”

In light of this, it is important to recognize that biblical descriptions of demons may reflect the cultural understanding of illness in that era rather than literal spiritual beings invading human bodies. Where ancient societies saw spiritual forces at work, we can now often identify medical conditions, epilepsy, schizophrenia, infections, or even cancer that were beyond their ability to diagnose.

A better question for you to ask is why then did Jesus not correct their understanding?

“23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, 24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. 26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him. 27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. 28 And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee. ”
Mark 1:23-28 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

You need to explain the above.

 

[Hiddenthings]

So Jesus was wrong and was mentally imprisoned by the context of cultural deceptions?

Not wrong - but why did he not correct this false understanding?

It's also worth noting that I didn't interpret Job other than take the book at face value.

Your interpretation is not based on the plain meaning of the text—if it were, you would see a person coming among the sons of God with a hostile attitude toward another who was powerless to resist, namely Job.

If you did read Job at face value you wouldn't be forcing your notions on that book.

God addressed Satan as he claimed rulership over the earth. God said you may have limited rule, but Job doesn't belong to you, he's Mine. Satan objected, claiming the only reason Job honoured God was because he owned stuff. God then challenged Job to prove his case. Satan then used various agents... Tribal enemies, and nature, to discourage Job from his faith, to curse God for being down upon him such disasters. Job and his so called friends may have been confused as to who was responsible, but the first 2 chapters reveal the truth.

Are you saying your evil creature claimed rulership over the earth?

That isn't interpretation. That's commentary. All I have done is affirmed what is written. I believe the word of God. So yes, my stance on Job stands.

But you cannot substantiate your beliefs but you still stand firm?

• Job – says God has taken away, struck him, or allowed trouble (Job 1:21; 2:10; 6:4; 9:17).
• Job’s wife – urges him to curse God, assuming God is the cause (Job 2:9).
• Eliphaz – views Job’s suffering as God’s discipline (Job 5:17–18).
• Bildad – says God punished Job’s children (Job 8:3–6).
• Zophar – claims Job deserves worse from God (Job 11:6).
• Elihu – frames Job’s suffering as God’s corrective action (Job 33:12–30; 36:15).

So even though nowhere in Job do you have anyone mentioning your evil creature you still reject these clear verses for your own personal belief?

I also believe the word of God regarding the NT testimony that demons possessed people, oppressed others, and were successful in turning the hearts and minds of the people against the Son of God and murdered him.
I also affirm all that in my own experience as I have previously shared, and told you that I am not alone in having to stare into the face of evil spiritual powers and recognising my utter helplessness but for the authority we have in Christ.

You’re in a difficult position Brakelite, having been taught this since childhood, you naturally look for occurrences that seem to validate those beliefs. But in doing so, you’ve come to hold a false conviction.

It means you misrepresent the Word of God and reality to uphold your Paradym.

I look forward to the scales falling off - not for me but for you.

 

[Hiddenthings]

“23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, 24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. 26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him. 27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. 28 And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee. ”
Mark 1:23-28 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

You need to explain the above.

Although the narratives often describe the “spirits” crying out, it is evident that the vocalizations came from the possessed individual himself. This is suggested by the shift in pronouns in Mark 5:7, 9 (ESV):

• “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?” (Mark 5:7)
• “I adjure you by God, do not torment me.” (Mark 5:7)
• “My name is Legion, for we are many.” (Mark 5:9)

After Jesus’ miraculous healing, Legion is described as “sitting there, clothed and in his right mind” (Mark 5:15), which suggests that his affliction was a severe mental illness rather than the influence of fallen angels. Notably, his request that the unclean spirits enter the swine is reminiscent of certain schizophrenic behaviors, where individuals fear the return of their prior mental disturbances.

A similar pattern appears in Mark 1:23–28 (ESV), where a man in the synagogue is described as having an unclean spirit:

• “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are , the Holy One of God.” (Mark 1:24)
• Jesus rebukes the spirit: “Be silent, and come out of him!” (Mark 1:25), and the man is immediately healed (Mark 1:26).

In both cases, the emphasis on vocalization and immediate restoration after Jesus’ intervention aligns more closely with mental illness or psychological disturbance than with literal demonic possession. These passages reflect the cultural understanding of the time, when unexplained mental and behavioral conditions were often attributed to supernatural causes.

Brakelite, what you are looking for in these accounts to support your belief simply isn’t there. If you recognized that the healing involves the mind, being restored to a “right mind" and substituted the word “Spirit” with “mind,” as in “unclean mind” or “sick mind,” you would be better able to discern the meaning of these texts.

Don’t get me wrong, you’re not alone in struggling to read the cultural context but it is present if you park the boggy man notions and see into the text.

 

[Hiddenthings]

But you cannot substantiate your beliefs but you still stand firm?

• Job – says God has taken away, struck him, or allowed trouble (Job 1:21; 2:10; 6:4; 9:17).
• Job’s wife – urges him to curse God, assuming God is the cause (Job 2:9).
• Eliphaz – views Job’s suffering as God’s discipline (Job 5:17–18).
• Bildad – says God punished Job’s children (Job 8:3–6).
• Zophar – claims Job deserves worse from God (Job 11:6).
• Elihu – frames Job’s suffering as God’s corrective action (Job 33:12–30; 36:15).

So even though nowhere in Job do you have anyone mentioning your evil creature you still reject these clear verses for your own personal belief?

@Brakelite, it’s this kind of irrational approach to the Word that sets off very loud alarm bells for me. If I were you, they would sound like ear piercing sirens.

 

[Muna]

Fear hath torment

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

2 Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

He was in his right mind

Ephes 4:3 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind

 

[Brakelite]

Your interpretation is not based on the plain meaning of the text—if it were, you would see a person coming among the sons of God with a hostile attitude toward another who was powerless to resist, namely Job.

There is a war, but there are set rules of engagement. Satan cannot touch anyone personally unless that individual items the windows of access and agree. Like my neighbour. It wasn't mental illness that enable her to speak in a man's voice in a language 100 of years extinct.

Are you saying your evil creature claimed rulership over the earth?

Yes. It was given to him by Adam when he surrendered sovereignty through insurance to the serpent.

So even though nowhere in Job do you have anyone mentioning your evil creature you still reject these clear verses for your own personal belief?

You are in denial. You refuse to read chapters 1 and 2 and you refuse to acknowledge that right there is the word of God, Satan is named and spoken to by God. Those 2 chapters give the context for the rest of the book. If you refuse to believe scripture, I cannot help you.

After Jesus’ miraculous healing, Legion is described as “sitting there, clothed and in his right mind” (Mark 5:15),

Subtle twist. Legion had gone into the swine. All that was left was a man whose name we are not told.

 

[Hiddenthings]

There is a war, but there are set rules of engagement. Satan cannot touch anyone personally unless that individual items the windows of access and agree.

No war exists at all only that which every believer experiences in their own mind (flesh vs. spirit), this will become evident to you in time, I’m sure. The few Scriptures you have misrepresented to support these ungodly notions will also be fully revealed!

Like my neighbour. It wasn't mental illness that enable her to speak in a man's voice in a language 100 of years extinct.

Yes. It was given to him by Adam when he surrendered sovereignty through insurance to the serpent.

You are in denial. You refuse to read chapters 1 and 2 and you refuse to acknowledge that right there is the word of God, Satan is named and spoken to by God. Those 2 chapters give the context for the rest of the book. If you refuse to believe scripture, I cannot help you.

Subtle twist. Legion had gone into the swine. All that was left was a man whose name we are not told.

Personal anecdotes are meaningless, Brakelite, I’m sorry. A deceived mind will conjure all sorts of visions and biases to support its false doctrines.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Fear hath torment

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

2 Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

He was in his right mind

Ephes 4:3 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind

Ask someone who has been clinically diagnosed with schizophrenia, and I’m certain it would make you change your perspective very quickly!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Subtle twist. Legion had gone into the swine. All that was left was a man whose name we are not told.

So you don't believe the miracle healed Legion?

Shame you cannot see Legion as yet another “storm” to be stilled!!!

Matthew 8:28 “When he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met him, coming out of the tombs, so violent that no one could pass that way.”

“two men.” One came forward, while the other held back, similar to the two thieves, yet only one believed!

There are many themes like this in Scripture which require your wider gaze...there is still time.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes. It was given to him by Adam when he surrendered sovereignty through insurance to the serpent.

Verse.

You are in denial. You refuse to read chapters 1 and 2 and you refuse to acknowledge that right there is the word of God, Satan is named and spoken to by God. Those 2 chapters give the context for the rest of the book. If you refuse to believe scripture, I cannot help you.

I can only read chapters 1&2 because after this no more mention of your monster.

Just maybe you have Genesis and Job totally wrong - imagine that.

 

[Muna]

Ask someone who has been clinically diagnosed with schizophrenia, and I’m certain it would make you change your perspective very quickly!

You want me to ask a schizophrenic person to change my mind about those scriptures?

 

[Hiddenthings]

You want me to ask a schizophrenic person to change my mind about those scriptures?

You mind cannot be changed only opened to the reality which the Scriptures teach. Forcing false supernatural ideas on the Word will not give its light.

 

[Muna]

You mind cannot be changed only opened to the reality which the Scriptures teach. Forcing false supernatural ideas on the Word will not give its light.

Which verse that I posted are you lecturing at?

 

[Hiddenthings]

What puzzles me about those who believe this mythological nonsense is this: what would people in the first century have even called schizophrenia?

I'm sure your resistance to answering is equality perplexing.

 

[Muna]

I'm sure your resistance to answering is equality perplexing.

What your problem with my post? (Post #205)

You wrote in in post #203

If you recognized that the healing involves the mind, being restored to a “right mind" and substituted the word “Spirit” with “mind,” as in “unclean mind” or “sick mind,” you would be better able to discern the meaning of these texts.

So I added to the thread (without even quoting your post) in the context of this man

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

Seeing "fear hath torment" as 1John 4:18 points out, which follows...

2 Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

He was also put into his right mind, there is "the spirit of your mind" shown here

Ephes 4:3 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind

And so you are speaking of this guy correct? If so, the word "right mind" is defined as a "sound mind"

Luke 8:35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: G4993 and they were afraid.

See?

1. to be of sound mind
   
   1. to be in one's right mind
   2. to exercise self control
      1. to put a moderate estimate upon one's self, think of one's self soberly
      2. to curb one's passions

Someone can be tormented by the another spirit

1 Sam 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.

Evil spirits, devils,

Matt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Brakelite

Patients today who display the same symptoms as those described in the New Testament as cases of “demon possession” often respond to chemotherapy, medication, or other modern treatments. This is significant, because if the condition truly were caused by literal demons, as some suggest, then how could recovery through medical intervention be explained?

Can pills or therapy cast out demons?

The more reasonable explanation is that the people of the first century lacked the medical knowledge we now take for granted. In that cultural context, unexplained illnesses, whether physical or mental were frequently attributed to supernatural causes. Seizures, mental health struggles, or degenerative diseases would have been mysterious and frightening without a framework of biology or neurology to explain them. Since medicine and science were undeveloped, the language of the time reflected their worldview: what could not be explained naturally was often explained supernaturally, as “demon possession.”

In light of this, it is important to recognize that biblical descriptions of demons may reflect the cultural understanding of illness in that era rather than literal spiritual beings invading human bodies. Where ancient societies saw spiritual forces at work, we can now often identify medical conditions, epilepsy, schizophrenia, infections, or even cancer that were beyond their ability to diagnose.

A better question for you to ask is why then did Jesus not correct their understanding?

Your understanding of demon possession is lacking.

The first thing an exorcist does is make sure that there are no mental problems present.

Demon possession is not a mental disorder although it is known that SOME symptoms may reflect those of demon possession.

However, demon possession must be accompanied by all three of the following:
1. an exhibition of great strength.
2. knowledge of an unknown language.
3. knowledge of sin in the life of the possessed person or a person in the vicinity.

Everything @Brakelite quoted in his two excellent posts is absolutely correct regarding the evil one.

If you want to believe satan does not exist, it is your right and has nothing to do with your Christianity..although you ARE rejecting a nice junk of Christian theology.

What I find interesting - and I haven't read every post here - is that you refuse all evidence offered,,,,and I fail to see why anyone would want to continue with this convesation.

YOU wrote to me in a post telling me that NO ONE on this thread, has been able to tell you WHAT THE ANIMAL IS in Genesis 3:1

I answered that it was a SNAKE and you never replied.
It was a SNAKE.

Who do you think God was speaking to in the first chapter of Job?
Who was present to hear this conversation?
Was Job a real person?
Do snakes talk?

 

[Muna]

Thats where we get, "Snake OIL"

 

[NSH]

Scripture reveals that we cannot blame God for the things that happen. God gave the earth for men to manage in an irrevocable oath.

"the heavens belong to God but the earth he has given to man" Psalm 115:16 in the Bible.

This verse emphasizes that, while divine power resides in the heavens, the earthly realm is entrusted to humans for them to live out their lives and worship God

This is why God had to become man to save the world. By allowing himself to right our wrong as becoming one of us, he saved us from the mess of the world that mankind has created.

God could not swoop in and change things, because that would be going back on the dominion of the earth that He gave to people. And people gave their domain and dominion to satan.

So satan's rule is legally delegated by men, who have been given legal rule by God.

We cannot blame God, but we can thank God for saving us.

In the story of Job, we see that Satan's main goal was to get Job to curse God and say, "it's your fault" but thankfully Job never stooped to that level and we can learn from Elihu what the right attitude should be.

 

[St. SteVen]

Scripture reveals that we cannot blame God for the things that happen.

Welcome to the forum.
Thanks for participating in this topic.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Is it okay to blame God for stuff that is his fault?​

I found myself in a bit of a minor frustration.
My reaction was to raise a fist and blame God. All in jest of course.
I believe that God has a sense of humor and can stand a bit of honest frustration.

If we believe God is sovereign, then he is ultimately responsible for this mess we are in.
And I believe he has a plan in place to make everything right again. The age of restoration.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh boy, this is a scary topic, eh? (oops, Canadian slip) - LOL

How dare we blame God for anything? (unthinkable) Or just dangerous?
Really?

If you were God, how would you have created the universe?
What would you have done differently?

What would YOUR Logos/logic/reason/plan have been?

We don't have to trash God to discuss this.

What might you have done differently?