Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[IndianaRob]

Are you certain? I wasn't aware that IndianaRob endorses full preterism.

I don't endorse anything from full preterism. I'm as against full preterism as much as I am against futurism. I believe the cross and resurrection was everything because that's what the bible teaches.

 

[IndianaRob]

Christ' humanity was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the woman. When He walked the earth a man, He was flesh, and Spirit making Him a complete living soul. Just as every human is born of flesh and spirit, and called living souls, so too Christ was born flesh from the woman, Spirit of God, becoming a living soul upon the earth. When we have the Spirit of Christ in us, we have Christ with us forever.

Luke 1:34-35 (KJV) Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I completely agree.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, of course it makes sense to a hyper-literalist like you, but where is the consistency in the symbolic woman sitting on symbolic things in Revelation 17 verses 1 and 3, but then somehow sitting on something literal in verse 9? There is no consistency in that. Do you care about that? Of course you don't. But, I do.

And, congratulations on taking it literally as seven mountains (or hills) just like the preterists do. I guess I should call you a preterist then.

Nothing preterist whatsoever regarding my explanation

Jerusalem presently sits upon seven hills/mounts, and the woman is Jerusalem the great city, you've seen my posting several times regarding Jerusalem being the whore, here it is again

(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia.
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Revelation) 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem

(Revelation) 18:19 AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't endorse anything from full preterism. I'm as against full preterism as much as I am against futurism. I believe the cross and resurrection was everything because that's what the bible teaches.

Two Simple Questions?

1.) Do you believe in a future bodily resurrection of those that have died in faith, 1 Corinthians Chapter 15:12-24?

1 Corinthians 15:12-24KJV
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

2.) Do you believe in a future visible coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, Matthew 24:30?

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[KUWN]

I never said it was proof. I was responding to a poster that said the date of revelation proves preterism false, when in fact the date itself does not prove preterism false or true. Not sure why you need to interject whataboutisms or red herrings......

If +he book of Rev was wri++en in 95AD, +hen +he even+s of 70AD were his+orical. +he pre+eris+ believes +he even+s of 70AD are recorded in +he book of Rev. bu+ +he book of Rev says i+ is Prophe+ic. (Rev 1.3)

On the day of Pentecost did Christ come to them through His Spirit?

Absolu+ly no+. Chris+ did no+ come, +he Holy Spiri+ came, +he Spiri+ is a differen+ being +han +he Son. As Ac+s demonas+ra+es, Jesus was already a+ +he righ+ hand side of God +he Fa+her in heaven. And, Jesus will no+ re+urn un+il Israel says Blessed is he who comes in +he name of +he Lord, which is a+ +he Second Coming.

My key pad no longer has +he le++er +.

 

[Muna]

My key pad no longer has +he le++er +.

I was wondering what that was all about

 

[HealthyShape]

When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson

Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).

A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.

In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).

Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).

To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.

The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).

I do not see the answers, in your sea of text.

1. Who would be the 5 kings in Rev 17 before Domitian? How would you count them?
2. And what catastrophic events happened soon after 81 in Judea that would correspond with the imminence of the book?

Try to answer concisely, focus on the questions, only.

 

[HealthyShape]

The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

I do not claim the Revelation was written before 61. According to the book itself, the things had to happen soon. The imminence is obvious throughout the text.

The passage in Revelation 17:10 suggests that it was written (or at least retrospectively situated in the vision) during the rule of the sixth king, Galba, who ruled 68–69 AD.

The five Roman rulers before him were Julius Cesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero (54–68). The seventh king was Otho and/or Vitellius, who both ruled for only few months during 69 AD.

So, my guess is 68 or even 69 AD. Titus came and encircled Jerusalem in April 70 AD.

 

[HealthyShape]

God spoke of Jerusalem in Psalms 125:2. "As the mountains surround Jerusalem, So the Lord surrounds His people from this time forth and forever." This predates Rome's reputation for sitting on its own set of seven hills later on.

Underline the word "seven" in the verse. Also, surrounding is not "sitting on". Also, it is not God saying it - the verse is about God, not the quotation of God.

It seems to me you use too loose associations for me to accept them.

 

[Truth7t7]

I do not see the answers, in your sea of text.

1. Who would be the 5 kings in Rev 17 before Domitian? How would you count them?
2. And what catastrophic events happened soon after 81 in Judea that would correspond with the imminence of the book?

Try to answer concisely, focus on the questions, only.

Your questions have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the early church fathers taught John was imprisoned at Patmos under the reign of Emperor Domitian 81-96AD where he wrote the Revelation

 

[Truth7t7]

I do not claim the Revelation was written before 61. According to the book itself, the things had to happen soon. The imminence is obvious throughout the text.

The passage in Revelation 17:10 suggests that it was written (or at least retrospectively situated in the vision) during the rule of the sixth king, Galba, who ruled 68–69 AD.

The five Roman rulers before him were Julius Cesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero (54–68). The seventh king was Otho and/or Vitellius, who both ruled for only few months during 69 AD.

So, my guess is 68 or even 69 AD. Titus came and encircled Jerusalem in April 70 AD.

The early church fathers taught otherwise, John was imprisoned at Patmos under the reign of Roman Emperor Domitian 81-96AD when the revelation was written

You can repeat your opinion till the cows come home, the Church fathers taught otherwise

 

[HealthyShape]

Your questions have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the early church fathers taught John was imprisoned at Patmos under the reign of Emperor Domitian 81-96AD where he wrote the Revelation

I am not asking about what tradition did the church fathers taught. I am asking you who are the kings in Rev 17. Because John says that 5 were and the 6th one currently is, in the time of the vision.

Who were the 5 past kings and the 6th one who ruled in the time of writing the vision?

 

[HealthyShape]

The early church fathers taught otherwise, John was imprisoned at Patmos under the reign of Roman Emperor Domitian 81-96AD when the revelation was written

You can repeat your opinion till the cows come home, the Church fathers taught otherwise

You can repeat "the church fathers taught otherwise" till the cows come home, but my question is - who were the 5 kings before the time of the vision, who was the 6th currently ruling in the time of the vision and what catastrophic events happened soon after the supposed 81-90 date?

If you cannot answer these, your hypothesis has no practical use, because it does not fit into the text.

 

[IndianaRob]

Two Simple Questions?

1.) Do you believe in a future bodily resurrection of those that have died in faith, 1 Corinthians Chapter 15:12-24?

1 Corinthians 15:12-24KJV
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

2.) Do you believe in a future visible coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, Matthew 24:30?

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Are you an AI bot? You ask the same questions over and over.

 

[Truth7t7]

I am not asking about what tradition did the church fathers taught. I am asking you who are the kings in Rev 17. Because John says that 5 were and the 6th one currently is, in the time of the vision.

Who were the 5 past kings and the 6th one who ruled in the time of writing the vision?

By all means please disclose your opinion on who the 6th king is ruling, I don't play hide and seek games

 

[Truth7t7]

Are you an AI bot? You ask the same questions over and over.

This is a non-response to my questions, I will consider you to be in denial of a future bodily resurrection of the believers and that you deny a future visible, literal, second coming of Jesus in the heavens, it's that simple

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

You can repeat "the church fathers taught otherwise" till the cows come home, but my question is - who were the 5 kings before the time of the vision, who was the 6th currently ruling in the time of the vision and what catastrophic events happened soon after the supposed 81-90 date?

If you cannot answer these, your hypothesis has no practical use, because it does not fit into the text.

All I know is Iranaeus was a disciple of Polycarp and he was a disciple of John who wrote the revelation, and Irenaeus taught that John wrote the revelation at Patmos in prison, under the rule of Emperor Domitian 81-96AD

You can ask your kings question and claim Irenaeus was wrong all you want, I believe the writings of Irenaeus over your claims and opinions, it's that simple

Apostle John (6 AD – c. 100 AD)
Polycarp (69 – 155 AD)
Irenaeus (125 – c. 202 AD)[4

 

[IndianaRob]

This is a non-response to my questions, I will consider you to be in denial of a future bodily resurrection of the believers and that you deny a future visible, literal, second coming of Jesus in the heavens, it's that simple

Jesus Is The Lord

You have asked me that same question over and over and over and I keep telling you the same thing over and over and over.

Mark this down in your notes. I do not believe in a future coming of Christ. The second coming was at the resurrection Jesus and Jesus IS the resurrection and whoever believes in him WILL NOT see death.

 

[rwb]

I don't endorse anything from full preterism. I'm as against full preterism as much as I am against futurism. I believe the cross and resurrection was everything because that's what the bible teaches.

I'm glad to hear you do not agree with full preterits. When you say you are also against futurism, are you saying that when one believes Christ died on the cross and resurrected from the dead our physical body, like our born-again spirit possesses everlasting life?

 

[rwb]

Absolu+ly no+. Chris+ did no+ come, +he Holy Spiri+ came, +he Spiri+ is a differen+ being +han +he Son. As Ac+s demonas+ra+es, Jesus was already a+ +he righ+ hand side of God +he Fa+her in heaven. And, Jesus will no+ re+urn un+il Israel says Blessed is he who comes in +he name of +he Lord, which is a+ +he Second Coming.

My key pad no longer has +he le++er +.

Your keypad may be missing the letter t, but you are missing something far greater. God is Spirit, Jesus is God through His Spirit even after becoming flesh and blood. When we have the Spirit of God, we have God, the Holy Spirit within us, therefore we have Christ within us.

Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Notice this verse says because Christ possessed the Spirit of God, through His Spirit the Kingdom of God has come. For that reason Christ sent His Spirit to be within us, that we too, through faith and power of His Spirit shall both know and enter the Kingdom of God (spiritually) the moment we believe.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.