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Dave Watchman

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Joshua has just been on the phone on Pete's livestream. (12:30 Eastern Time) Fairly spooky. He quoted Paul's vision where Paul said he was faithful to the vision. He insists that he has been faithful to the vision.

He insists it is still happening. He says just stand still and wait for it. We are still in the timeline. As long as it is the 24th somewhere on earth. He is still a billion percent sure it will happen.

Medic 4 Christ was crying, and now has taken down his videos.
 

WPM

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You always just cherry pick the same verse all the time. The preceding verse was:

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.​

How can you tell:

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.​

Isn't speaking to the day when heaven and earth passes away?

Which is after the thousand years are finished.

And if we google: "no man knows the day or the hour", we get:

The phrase "no man knows the day or the hour" is a direct reference to the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah) because its exact start was unknown until two witnesses confirmed the sighting of the new moon to the Sanhedrin. Jesus used this well-known idiom, a Hebrew figure of speech, to teach about His second coming, as the timing of the Feast of Trumpets was unpredictable, making it the only feast not fixed to a specific date but dependent on the unpredictable new moon.

Why the Feast of Trumpets Was Unknown
  • New Moon Testimony:
    The Feast of Trumpets begins at the sighting of the new moon in the seventh month, Tishrei.

  • Unpredictable Sighting:
    Due to atmospheric factors like clouds, the exact moment the new moon's sliver would appear was not known in advance.

  • Witness Confirmation:
    The Jewish court (Sanhedrin) required two reliable witnesses to observe and testify to the new moon's appearance before the feast could officially be declared and begin.

  • Unpredictable Timing:
    Since confirmation could be delayed by up to 48 hours, the "day or hour" of the feast was inherently unknown.
Jesus' Use of the Idiom
  • When asked about the signs of His coming and the end of the age, Jesus used this common idiom to explain that His return would be similarly unpredictable.

  • He was referring to His second coming as a moment unknown to man, the angels, or even himself, with only the Father knowing the exact time.

  • The timing of the Feast of Trumpets serves as a metaphor for the unknown timing of the "last trumpet" call when He returns for the Church.
You just explained away the clear and climatic teaching of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with your faulty opinion of Revelation 20. That is classic Premil! Every text in Scripture is interpreted through the lens of Revelation 20. This is why Premil should be rejected. Please never claim that Premils are the literalists. That is a lie! They spiritualize every second coming passage away to support their error.

This is where Premil hermeneutics are exposed. You have zero rebuttals for the Amil position. All you have is: "what saith Revelation 20." It matters little that your view of that lone chapter is completely messed up. Notwithstanding, you avoid text after text (as above) that shows the end to be the end. This is what demolishes your speculations and what you have been taught.
 
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WPM

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Joshua has just been on the phone on Pete's livestream. (12:30 Eastern Time) Fairly spooky. He quoted Paul's vision where Paul said he was faithful to the vision. He insists that he has been faithful to the vision.

He insists it is still happening. He says just stand still and wait for it. We are still in the timeline. As long as it is the 24th somewhere on earth. He is still a billion percent sure it will happen.

Medic 4 Christ was crying, and now has taken down his videos.
Exactly! Why are we not surprised?

This is what false prophets do.

Are you all going to publicly repent? False prophets never do that. They just double down. They move the goal posts. They all finish with: "He fulfilled this spiritually!" Look at the Morons and JWs and all the other Pretrib date-setter false prophets.

This is attractive to gullible and ignorant people.
 
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covenantee

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100%. All the Tribes of Israel. 100% All. 12X12. The Israel of God.
So that includes all of these.

Numbers 25
3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

And these.

Matthew 23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

And these.

1 Thessalonians 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the
uttermost.
 
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Dave Watchman

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So that includes all of these.

Numbers 25
3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

And these.

Matthew 23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

And these.

1 Thessalonians 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the
uttermost.
It includes ALL.

100%.

12X12.

100%

All the tribes of Israel.

The Israel of God.

Did it make more sense for me to write it out like that?
 
M

Muna

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This is what false prophets do.

Are you all going to publicly repent?
Never anything new under the sun

Jerm 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Jerm 23:25-26 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart.

Jerm 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully.

What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD
.

Chaff verses wheat here also

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
 
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WPM

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You always just cherry pick the same verse all the time. The preceding verse was:

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.​

How can you tell:

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.​

Isn't speaking to the day when heaven and earth passes away?

Which is after the thousand years are finished.
Your hermeneutics have passage after passage contradicting each other. Amil, on the other hand, as you see below, knits together seamlessly and perfectly. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the biblical view-point.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai].”

Looking at the detail of this passage, and knowing the consistent teaching of Scripture, and allowing the repeated climactic descriptions of the second coming, we can be confident this is clearly a record of the impending and all-consummating return of Jesus!

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.” The Greek word parerchomai means to pass away or perish.

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away or pass away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

2 Peter 3:3-13 agrees with Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai] with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).

This is telling us that what we know as the earth (or where we live) “shall be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10) when Jesus comes as a thief. The ground is going to be “dissolved” (2 Peter 3:11).

The teaching of Jesus in Matthew 24:35-44 correlates with Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1 and proves that we are looking at the second coming: “Heaven and earth shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”
 

covenantee

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It includes ALL.

100%.

12X12.

100%

All the tribes of Israel.

The Israel of God.

Did it make more sense for me to write it out like that?
Write out how the israel of god generation of vipers get raptured to hell. :laughing:
 

Dave Watchman

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100%. All the Tribes of Israel. 100% All. 12X12. The Israel of God.

Red Flag Warning here folks. So only 144,000??
It includes ALL.

100%.

12X12.

100%

All the tribes of Israel.

The Israel of God.

Did it make more sense for me to write it out like that?

"But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.​

If you poor old Amil boys can't figure out the doctrines of salvific faith, how in the world will you figure out the apocalypse?
 

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Well, I have GOOD NEWS and I have BAD NEWS:

BAD NEWS:​

If you are reading this, you have missed the "Pre-Tribulation" Rapture. Sorry. I guess your lamp ran out of oil, or your wick was not properly trimmed ... who can explain such things.

GOOD NEWS:​

You still have a chance! There will be another "Rapture Train" departing in exactly 42 months (1277 days), So start PRAYING and PREACHING and DOING what Jesus said and get ready for the "Mid-Tribulation Rapture".

A FINAL CHANCE:​

For anyone reading this in 3.5 years that missed the Mid-Trib Rapture, your absolute last chance will occur at the POST-TRIB RAPTURE on September 23-24, 2032. DO NOT MISS IT!!!

[Hopefully everyone reading this understood the satirical humor and accepted this as the nonsense it was intended.]
 
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Scott Downey

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It includes ALL.

100%.

12X12.

100%

All the tribes of Israel.

The Israel of God.

Did it make more sense for me to write it out like that?

"But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.​

If you poor old Amil boys can't figure out the doctrines of salvific faith, how in the world will you figure out the apocalypse?
I don't like you limiting to like you said 12 x 12!
All the true Israel of God are raptured, and that is going to be many millions of people, including believers who are gentiles.
I don't know if you are limiting the rapture to just Jewish believers, cause some have said that.
 

Scott Downey

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The beloved brethren are all who are in Christ, that means those who are born according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh.

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 

Scott Downey

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Romans 9 for reference on the true Israel who are of God

Israel’s Rejection of Christ​

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my [a]countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose​

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Present Condition of Israel​

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
 

Scott Downey

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And Galatians 4 on the TWO covenants

Two Covenants​

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are [g]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
 

Dave Watchman

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Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai].”
This part of Revelation happens after the thousand years are finished, not at the second coming.
Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away or pass away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end.
You assume it is. The end can't come at the second coming. Because that's the first time all the Saints are alive again, and they have some function to perform in the judgement process. That's going to take a lot more than an hour or two, or even a couple days.

Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?​

This, among other things, will necessitate some time. It doesn't take a huge extrapolation what the 1000 years will be for.

Before those people are condemned, the Saints are going to go over all the days of their lives. They going to find out why uncle Bob, and aunt Martha can't come with us.

Feels like I hit a hive of rabid Amils, and now they swarm.
 

WPM

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This part of Revelation happens after the thousand years are finished, not at the second coming.

You assume it is. The end can't come at the second coming. Because that's the first time all the Saints are alive again, and they have some function to perform in the judgement process. That's going to take a lot more than an hour or two, or even a couple days.

Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?​

This, among other things, will necessitate some time. It doesn't take a huge extrapolation what the 1000 years will be for.

Before those people are condemned, the Saints are going to go over all the days of their lives. They going to find out why uncle Bob, and aunt Martha can't come with us.

Feels like I hit a hive of rabid Amils, and now they swarm.
I gave you the evidence, and you ducked around it. The whole basis of your argument is on your mistaken opinion of Revelation 20. That is it. That is all you have. It is becoming clearer and clearer the more you write. You have nothing else. You view every single passage of Scripture through the lens of your opinion of one lone passage 3 chapters before the end of the Bible. That is horrible hermeneutics. Amil is the opposite, it interprets Revelation 20 through the lens of the rest of Scripture. This is a smarter way to do things. As a result, because their understanding of Revelation 20 is wrong. Premil has zero corroboration for all their main tenets.
 
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