Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[Behold]

I'm just saying that John's writing has unfathomable depths, continuously enfolding on itself, and reiterating on unfathomable levels, by God's grace and for His glory, but Hebrews doesn't have that quality IMO.

Yes, i understand.
John's style is very recognizable.

In fact, John's Gospel.....its totally spiritual....its almost mystical.....how it teaches.........so, in that regard, its nothing like the other 3 gospels.
Its my favorite.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes, i understand.
John's style is very recognizable.

In fact, John's Gospel.....its totally spiritual....its almost mystical.....how it teaches.........so, in that regard, its nothing like the other 3 gospels.
Its my favorite.

Extremely mystical and unfathomable.

 

[shepherdsword]

Extremely mystical and unfathomable.

Dishonest is a better term. He just made it all up to try to win an argument.

 

[GracePeace]

Dishonest is a better term. He just made it all up to try to win an argument.

The Gospel of John?

 

[marks]

Now you know how the Pharisees felt when they questioned Jesus. I gave you my answer. Here it is again:

I am in agreement with what the bible says.

Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Then your answer is defacto agreement that works do not procure for us salvation, neither do they maintain our salvation, rather, they are the result of salvation for those who have been saved. I'm glad we agree on this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

by faith alone, and I assume it works for all of life (though I admit I'm not sure how)

Trusting in Jesus to the point of completely repudiating your own self effort, and relying entirely on His power to change you releases your spirit to walk in the Spirit, thus delivering you into the Spirit life, and overcoming all these things.

This is already our life, recreated in righteousness and holiness, only, our lack of faith, and our demanding of ourselves what we cannot do, tie us to our fleshiness. This is what people mean when they speak of "positional" aspects of Christianity.

Only for me it's not positional, more like, unrealized. We are with Jesus in righteousness, but we don't believe it. When we come to believe it, and look no longer on trying to clean ourselves up, we find He's done that already. Does that make sense to you?

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

@shepherdsword

The Torah had various types of commands, and some of them were to REMEMBER WHAT GOD DID--so, also, I think "remembering what God did" is what Paul says "God forbid that I would boast in anything but the Cross whereby I was crucified to the world and the world to me", and how he emphasizes "accounting yourself" this way and that BECAUSE OF CHRIST. There really is something to it--as I was nightly terrorized by terrifying satanic visitations until I stopped judging myself by my works and just believed that I was already saved by Christ (not that I'm even close to perfect in belief).

So, also, Paul has (at least) two types of commands :
1. "Account yourself dead to sin" : accounting / belief based on what Christ has done, and
2. "Nothing counts but keeping God's commands", "serve one another" : walk in love toward God and man.

This is also what 1 John 3:23, 24 say "this is His command, that we believe in the Name of His son AND love one another" (the two are one command--hence, "the one who does not provide for his family... has denied the faith").

 

[GracePeace]

Trusting in Jesus to the point of completely repudiating your own self effort, and relying entirely on His power to change you releases your spirit to walk in the Spirit, thus delivering you into the Spirit life, and overcoming all these things.

This is already our life, recreated in righteousness and holiness, only, our lack of faith, and our demanding of ourselves what we cannot do, tie us to our fleshiness. This is what people mean when they speak of "positional" aspects of Christianity.

Only for me it's not positional, more like, unrealized. We are with Jesus in righteousness, but we don't believe it. When we come to believe it, and look no longer on trying to clean ourselves up, we find He's done that already. Does that make sense to you?

Much love!

Yeah, the self effort makes things even worse (like being under Law), but when you trust God, and tear down the impending fears that you might do something wrong, fighting the good fight of faith, bringing every thought captive to obey Christ, based on what Christ has made you to be already, that is true victory by trusting Him alone, then you walk in freedom--but I also don't accept the notion that someone has a positional righteousness that will justify them on the Day of Judgment whether or not they WALKED OUT that positional righteousness, but, rather, we really do have a positional standing, yet, only those who actually WALK IT OUT / WALK IN GRACE will live and not die, yet I also recognize that what I deem as the correct view on these matters can also (doesn't have to but can) squelch faith in Christ, and, also, lead to a loss of grace, because it can lead back to self-effort, whereas grace through faith gives absolute flawless victory with no struggle (eg, I don't struggle not to watch porn--I literally don't even THINK of it, I'm just free).

 

[Episkopos]

@shepherdsword

So, also, Paul has (at least) two types of commands :
1. "Account yourself dead to sin" : accounting / belief based on what Christ has done, and

I take issue with this statement. Reckoning oneself dead to sin is not a belief in what Jesus has done for all unless He has done it in you personally. To reckon is to impute or account. And here is where the meaning of words count.

People think that to impute means to give something or claim something that is unwarranted or untrue. But that is false. To impute is to consider what is really going on. It means to think....not imagine. I think the way people think today is like...imagine yourself to be dead to sin. If that helps a person actually avoid sin, then good. But the bible is conveying something far deeper. How can we sin who are dead to sin? Being dead to sin is an act of grace, not a superior effort to avoid sin in our own power.

 

[marks]

I think there is some truth to a positional aspect by which God views us. An example in the OT can be found here:

Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob

If in fact we've been recreated in righteousness and true holiness, then this is the "positional" aspect that some speak of. I don't say "positional" myself. But those who speak of it that way are saying, "In God's eyes, we are already holy and righteous", because He see's the end, and counts it true of today, so we should also. So they say, Though I still commit sins, God sees me as righteous.

I think the truth is that being recreated in righteousness and true holiness (Ephesians 4), we are in fact righteous and holy in our true inner man.

We live in our flesh bodies that are corrupted by sin. It's like becoming an Indy 500 driver, but you're still in a broken down 60's Fairlane that barely moves, and when it does you can't steer it, and it has no brakes. And as time goes by you learn to control it anyway, and you are able to make some repairs, and sometimes you see the Master Mechanic has fixed something for you.

The Bible describes that we become a new creation, still in our flesh, and our minds are being renewed according to our knowledge of Jesus, the more we learn of Him, the more we are like Him, as this knowledge connects with, defines, our inner man.

We are body, soul and spirit. Spirit is created by God when we are born again. Body is corrupted by sin causing us to make bad choices because that's how our brains have become wired. Soul is the conscious part of life, that is first formed only from the body, but is now being reformed from the Spirit.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I take issue with this statement. Reckoning oneself dead to sin is not a belief in what Jesus has done for all unless He has done it in you personally. To reckon is to impute or account. And here is where the meaning of words count.

People think that to impute means to give something or claim something that is unwarranted or untrue. But that is false. To impute is to consider what is really going on. It means to think....not imagine. I think the way people think today is like...imagine yourself to be dead to sin. If that helps a person actually avoid sin, then good. But the bible is conveying something far deeper. How can we sin who are dead to sin? Being dead to sin is an act of grace, not a superior effort to avoid sin in our own power.

I have experienced grace, the Son of God destroying the works of the devil, in my life through faith in and boasting in the Cross, so I have to disagree if you disagree--but I think what you disagree with is an empty powerless profession that doesn't yield results but leaves a person buddy-buddy with sin, and I would reject that as well.

 

[marks]

--but I also don't accept the notion that someone has a positional righteousness that will justify them on the Day of Judgment whether or not they WALKED OUT that positional righteousness, but, rather, we really do have a positional standing, yet, only those who actually WALK IT OUT / WALK IN GRACE will live and not die,

I don't believe in "positional righteousness". Either you are or you are not. The rest of what you wrote there, I agree with you completely.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Yeah, the self effort makes things even worse (like being under Law), but when you trust God, and tear down the impending fears that you might do something wrong, fighting the good fight of faith, bringing every thought captive to obey Christ, based on what Christ has made you to be already, that is true victory by trusting Him alone, then you walk in freedom--but I also don't accept the notion that someone has a positional righteousness that will justify them on the Day of Judgment whether or not they WALKED OUT that positional righteousness, but, rather, we really do have a positional standing, yet, only those who actually WALK IT OUT / WALK IN GRACE will live and not die, yet I also recognize that what I deem as the correct view on these matters can also (doesn't have to but can) squelch faith in Christ, and, also, lead to a loss of grace, because it can lead back to self-effort, whereas grace through faith gives absolute flawless victory with no struggle (eg, I don't struggle not to watch porn--I literally don't even THINK of it, I'm just free).

This kind of "theology" comes from those who have never known the victorious walk in Christ. They think they can IMPROVE their walk over time...and on a righteousness level sure. We LEARN righteousness. But the NT is about holiness and no one can improve into holiness.

It takes a translation into the kingdom realm.

It's like saying I live in North America, and I went for a walk and ended up in Europe. There is an impossible to breach chasm between what we can do of ourselves, and what we can do when we walk in the Spirit

 

[GracePeace]

I don't believe in "positional righteousness". Either you are or you are not. The rest of what you wrote there, I agree with you completely.

Much love!

Well, by "positional righteousness", I mean "what God has made to be true of me since I am [positionally] in Christ".

 

[GracePeace]

This kind of "theology" comes from those who have never known the victorious walk in Christ. They think they can IMPROVE their walk over time...and on a righteousness level sure. We LEARN righteousness. But the NT is about holiness and no one can improve into holiness.

It takes a translation into the kingdom realm.

It's like saying I live in North America, and I went for a walk and ended up in Europe. There is an impossible to breach chasm between what we can do of ourselves, and what we can do when we walk in the Spirit

Transformed my life, saved from 7 straight years of nightly unspeakably terrifying satanic visitations, so I'm sticking with it, irrespective ANY other opinion.

 

[marks]

Well, by "positional righteousness", I mean "what God has made to be true of me since I am [positionally] in Christ".

I don't really know what you mean saying "positionally" in Christ.

I understand that I've been baptized into Christ, which creates a mystical union with Jesus and myself, from which I obtain a new kind of life directly from Him. This new life is seen in the celestial realm but is unseen in the material realm.

This is why all sin is removed from me, as in my new creation the inner man, I'm joined to our Holy God Himself. I see this as a current reality, this mystical bond to Jesus that allows me to become reformed by His presence in me.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 LITV
17) And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18) But we all with our face having been unveiled, having beheld the glory of the Lord in a mirror, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord Spirit.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I don't really know what you mean saying "positionally" in Christ.

I understand that I've been baptized into Christ, which creates a mystical union with Jesus and myself, from which I obtain a new kind of life directly from Him. This new life is seen in the celestial realm but is unseen in the material realm.

This is why all sin is removed from me, as in my new creation the inner man, I'm joined to our Holy God Himself. I see this as a current reality, this mystical bond to Jesus that allows me to become reformed by His presence in me.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 LITV
17) And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18) But we all with our face having been unveiled, having beheld the glory of the Lord in a mirror, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord Spirit.

Much love!

Right, that's what people mean when they say "positional" (not that I use the word, I just use it to relate to those who use it, or who I think use it)--they are in Christ, that is their "position".

 

[marks]

@shepherdsword

So, also, Paul has (at least) two types of commands :
1. "Account yourself dead to sin" : accounting / belief based on what Christ has done, and

Romans 6:6-12 KJV
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin for this reason . . . it's true that we are dead to sin, though we don't recognize this truth. So we are to get it into our heads, we are in fact dead to sin, and alive to God.

And it's for that reason, that we are dead to sin, and alive to God, that we are to not allow sin to rule in our bodies, that we should obey it's lusts.

These things are true, so we're to get our minds up to speed. God isn't telling us to believe something that's not true.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Romans 6:6-12 KJV
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin for this reason . . . it's true that we are dead to sin, though we don't recognize this truth. So we are to get it into our heads, we are in fact dead to sin, and alive to God.

And it's for that reason, that we are dead to sin, and alive to God, that we are to not allow sin to rule in our bodies, that we should obey it's lusts.

These things are true, so we're to get our minds up to speed. God isn't telling us to believe something that's not true.

Much love!

Yes, we will be transformed by the renewing of our minds--they overcame by the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death (acknowledging and confessing the truth makes us leave the old life behind).

 

[marks]

Transformed my life, saved from 7 straight years of nightly unspeakably terrifying satanic visitations, so I'm sticking with it, irrespective ANY other opinion.

When the truth of the Bible correctly describes and informs our lives, that's a powerful testimony! Where the word of God is, there is power!!

Much love!