Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[shepherdsword]

God's position is that we obey His commandments...at least physically...for righteousness...or FULLY, by walking in the Spirit.

I see "positional theology" as a human means of explaining away or "spiritualizing" what they can't understand.

Maybe "positional" isn't an accurate term. However, we have numerous examples of God seeing people in a different way than their behavior in a situation would indicate. He called Gideon a "mighty man of valor" when he was hiding in a hole threshing wheat. He called Sarah faithful even after she laughed when God said she would bare a son in her old age. In Numbers we see God saying this:

Nu 23:21-24
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them. God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought! Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.

And this was after their idolatry, unbelief, murmuring and complaining. It is evident that the Lord does see things from a higher perspective while others see room for condemnation.

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos

I get what you are saying about making Jesus sin and ourselves righteous. I think there is a place where that can be in a neo-pharisaical spirit. That being said, this is very clear:

2 Co 5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.




View attachment 70593

The is no "HE has made HIM"....look above at the 9999 (him to be) It should say...He was made sin for us (without telling us WHO did that) and 1096 ginomai should say...FULFILL or "be done" as in Thy will be done (ginomai)

 

[Episkopos]

Maybe "positional" isn't an accurate term. However, we have numerous examples of God seeing people in a different way than their behavior in a situation would indicate. He called Gideon a "mighty man of valor" when he was hiding in a hole threshing wheat. He called Sarah faithful even after she laughed when God said she would bare a son in her old age. In Numbers we see God saying this:

Nu 23:21-24
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them. God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought! Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.

And this was after their idolatry, unbelief, murmuring and complaining. It is evident that the Lord does see things from a higher perspective while others see room for condemnation.

And surely God saw Paul as a great apostle even as he persecuted the church. The problem is when we see OURSELVES as something we are not.

 

[shepherdsword]

The is no "HE has made HIM"....look above at the 9999 (him to be) It should say...He was made sin for us (without telling us WHO did that) and 1096 ginomai should say...FULFILL or "be done" as in Thy will be done (ginomai)

actually it's 1097
NT:1097 ginosko (root gnosto ie to know)








No one translates it the way you are doing. I can post Kittle's, Robertson. Wuest and Vincent if you like. The classic KJV has a solid translation of the text.

 

[Lizbeth]

@Episkopos

I get what you are saying about making Jesus sin and ourselves righteous. I think there is a place where that can be in a neo-pharisaical spirit. That being said, this is very clear:

2 Co 5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.




View attachment 70593

Agree....except that us making Jesus sin is another false accusation of Epi's. We know very well that Jesus was never literally sinful....He just stood in for us sinners by proxy as it were.

And if He could "positionally" be made sin who knew no sin, then we can "positionally" be made the righteousness of God.

 

[GracePeace]

@Episkopos

I get what you are saying about making Jesus sin and ourselves righteous. I think there is a place where that can be in a neo-pharisaical spirit. That being said, this is very clear:

2 Co 5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.




View attachment 70593

Do you think it is helpful, as long as we're being careful, and nuanced, to consider that Paul also, although he says, "Purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened" (affirming a "positional", "in Christ", reality), he also warns them, in answer to their unrighteous behavior, sin, "do not be deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit God's Kingdom"?

I think we're called to stand in what He has done for us/made us to be, but also walk accordingly--"if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit".

Purge out the old leaven for you are unleavened : you actually are unleavened, therefore act like what you are.

 

[Lizbeth]

Maybe "positional" isn't an accurate term. However, we have numerous examples of God seeing people in a different way than their behavior in a situation would indicate. He called Gideon a "mighty man of valor" when he was hiding in a hole threshing wheat. He called Sarah faithful even after she laughed when God said she would bare a son in her old age. In Numbers we see God saying this:

Nu 23:21-24
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them. God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought! Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.

And this was after their idolatry, unbelief, murmuring and complaining. It is evident that the Lord does see things from a higher perspective while others see room for condemnation.

I like to think of our being made the righteousness of God as being a heavenly reality. God accepted the proxy (Jesus) AS IF it were us.....it was legally and spiritually binding every bit as much as if it really were us receiving God's wrath on the cross...our old man is judged and dead and we have become via the new man the righteousness of God. If we could receive and understand this by revelation, truly and deeply by faith, I believe it would made a difference in our walk.........because that is the line that the apostle takes.......he speaks along the lines of ".since that wonderful thing has happened to us how can we walk in sin any longer?"

 

[marks]

Purge out the old leaven for you are unleavened : you actually are unleavened, therefore act like what you are.

This is the consistent message throughout Paul's writings, as I see it. He says this in numerous ways, numerous places.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV
19) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

The is no "HE has made HIM".

Stop lying to people.. @Episkopos

Here is the verse.


""""For he hath made him to be sin for us""""

(KJV) 2 Corin 5:21


And we know its JESUS... as no other person died on The Cross, as our Sin Bearer, who was sent to do so by God.

 

[marks]

I like to think of our being made the righteousness of God as being a heavenly reality. God accepted the proxy (Jesus) AS IF it were us.....it was legally and spiritually binding every bit as much as if it really were us receiving God's wrath on the cross...our old man is judged and dead and we have become via the new man the righteousness of God. If we could receive and understand this by revelation, truly and deeply by faith, I believe it would made a difference in our walk.........because that is the line that the apostle takes.......he speaks along the lines of ".since that wonderful thing has happened to us how can we walk in sin any longer?"

Ephesians 4:23-24 KJV
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

We've been made new people living in the old bodies. The new person is righteous and holy, and we are in process of coming to live that way consistently.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

The problem is when we see OURSELVES as something we are not.

The born again are to see themselves as "In Christ"......."one with God"... '"made righteous".....having received the 'imputed righteousness" of God.

The born again is to understand that their "faith is counted (by God) as (Christ's) Righteousness".....= .imputed.



Romans 4. '"""""But to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, = his FAITH is counted for RIGHTEOSNESS"."""

"faith is counted *by God" as RIGHTEOUSNESS"......("without works").......= is "IMPUTED Righteousness".

 

[Episkopos]

actually it's 1097
NT:1097 ginosko (root gnosto ie to know)



View attachment 70594

View attachment 70595


No one translates it the way you are doing. I can post Kittle's, Robertson. Wuest and Vincent if you like. The classic KJV has a solid translation of the text.

I agree. I translate by comparison with other verses. The popular way adds in words to change the meaning. The religious agenda is to make verses reflect a previous ideology. For the organized religious factions, Christianity is a religion that has to fit ALL people by simple agreement.

What is popular is also very false. God did NOT put His Son to death. Evil men did. So then, He was made to be sin over us (by sinful men) who knew no sin (innocent from false accusations) so that we might FULFILL the righteousness of God in Him (Christ).

 

[Behold]

so that we might FULFILL the righteousness of God in Him (Christ).

A sinner does not "fulfill the righteousness of God".

A sinner RECEIVES the Righteousness of God, by FAITH......that is "counted as Righteousness".....that is defined as "imputed righteousness".

A sinner RECEIVES Salvation.........and Salvation is "The Gift of Righteousness....and "The Gift of Eternal life".

A sinner is "made righteous".......having received from God....>"imputed Righteousness"...

Or as Paul teaches...

""""""David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"" New Living Translation David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it: English Standard Version just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: Berean Standard Bible And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: Berean Literal Bible just as David also declares the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: King James Bible Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, New King James Version just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: New American Standard Bible just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: NASB 1995 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: NASB 1977 just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: Legacy Standard Bible just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: Amplified Bible And in this same way David speaks of the blessing on the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

 

[Episkopos]

Do you think it is helpful, as long as we're being careful, and nuanced, to consider that Paul also, although he says, "Purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened" (affirming a "positional", "in Christ", reality), he also warns them, in answer to their unrighteous behavior, sin, "do not be deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit God's Kingdom"?

I think we're called to stand in what He has done for us/made us to be, but also walk accordingly--"if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit".

Purge out the old leaven for you are unleavened : you actually are unleavened, therefore act like what you are.

One would have to understand the nature of being regenerated by the Spirit in the inner man. The outer man is still mixed in and needs to be PURGED out. The whole lump needs to become leavened. God only regenerated 1/2 of us. The rest needs to be cut away. The carnal man cannot be reformed...he has to die. All modern doctrine is concerned with the preservation of the evil alongside what God regenerated (if He actually did). Watch the way people here defend the flesh.

The word that expresses the "earnest" of the Spirit received at regeneration is "aravon"...actually a transliterated Hebrew word...meaning downpayment (sample)...from the root for "desert" or aravah and "mixture" or erev. As long as we are mixed with the outer man the inner man will wander in the desert in bondage to sin, and be unable to enter God's rest in the Promised land of Zion. The work of the cross is what leberates us from the outer man sin nature...so we can be fully cleansed, or purged (atoned) to enter into the spiritual realm of the kingdom. So few have experienced this because they remain a mixture ...uncrucified.

It's too much to explain....I have videos about these things.

 

[Behold]

The outer man is still mixed in and needs to be PURGED out.

It's too much to explain....I have videos about these things.

Paul teaches how to "Purge" out the old man.
He didnt need to post a video.

What Paul teaches the born again.... is to understand that their "old man of sin".....is "crucified with Christ", and they are to "reckon Him DEAD".
So, this simply means that the born again is to understand that "OLD things have passed away"....they are DEAD......= "the old man of sin".....and now having become a "new creation".... "behold, all things have become NEW"..... and the born again is to walk in this "newness of LIFE".

All this simply means is to understand that the born again is "made righteous"...."having become the RIghteousness of God, IN CHRIST".

And the born again have to get that MIND.. as that is REAL FAITH....= that understanding, and they are to walk in that Revelation, regarding who they have become 'IN Christ".

 

[Episkopos]

I like to think of our being made the righteousness of God as being a heavenly reality. God accepted the proxy (Jesus) AS IF it were us.....it was legally and spiritually binding every bit as much as if it really were us receiving God's wrath on the cross...our old man is judged and dead and we have become via the new man the righteousness of God. If we could receive and understand this by revelation, truly and deeply by faith, I believe it would made a difference in our walk.........because that is the line that the apostle takes.......he speaks along the lines of ".since that wonderful thing has happened to us how can we walk in sin any longer?"

Very wrong way of thinking. When a person believes a lie on that level one begins to sound like @Behold.

The false gospel is...you are (all) dead to sin and your life is hid with God...as something to put faith in..without any qualifiers......whether we continue to sin or not. The sin we do doesn't disprove our claims in that scheme.

The truth is about power from heaven not human imagination. Not in word but in power. The dead are not raised "positionally" but physically. All the rest is Greek philosophy.

The false gospel has no reality or practical applications...it's all ideology. It would be like telling the Israelites that since they have escaped from Egypt then they have to consider themselves (reckon) to be in the Promised Land already. But the truth is that they will NEVER enter the Promised land and die in the wilderness as almost all modern believers will do...since we are no better than them.

Will people wake up and be warned? Of course not.

 

[Behold]

The false gospel is...you are dead to sin and your life is hid with God...

Paul teaches as doctrine....... what you just defined as a lie. @Episkopos

He's not the liar.........

Paul teaches.. """"""For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."""""

So, who is dead,?

A.) "The old man of sin"......and that is because = "the old man of sin is crucified with Christ".


What is now become????

AA.) The BORN AGAIN .. THE "new creation in Christ"...... who is "made righteous" because they have received "the Gift of righteousness", that is the "mputed righteousness" of Christ.

Here is how to simply understand it.

AAA.) = "Jesus on THe Cross became our sin, and we (by faith) became His Rightesouness".

God's ... = "GRACE.. through Faith"""

And now being made righteous, based on "Justification by Faith"......."we have Peace with God'".....forever.

 

[Episkopos]

Here is how to understand it.

"Jesus became our sin, and we became His Rightesouness".

And now being made righteous, based on "Justification by Faith"......."we have Peace with God'.....forever.

That is the great deception that those who hate the truth will believe to their condemnation. God has sent this great delusion...from a certain verse that is badly translated and poorly understood...and doesn't line up with ANY of the scriptures. Since you lack any wisdom you will not look to see such a VAST scheme mentioned in the OT...or from the mouth of Jesus, or any of the apostles.

You've been caught up in the heresy of Luther (your true saviour)...and all who turn aside to heed his errors.

In your scheme, as soon as Jesus stops being our sin...then we stop being His righteousness. Righteousness is not being opposite to Jesus.

 

[Behold]

That is the great deception that those who hate the truth will believe to their condemnation.

Paul teaches as doctrine....... what you just defined as a lie. @Episkopos

He's not the liar.........

Paul teaches.. """"""For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."""""

Paul teaches that the Born again Christian is "COMPLETE In Him".

God has sent this great delusion..

"Imputed righteousness".......is not a delusion......its SALVATION....its "The Gift of Righteousness"......as Paul teaches.. and its "without works"...

so that we might FULFILL the righteousness of God in Him (Christ).

A sinner does not "fulfill the righteousness of God".

A sinner RECEIVES the Righteousness of God, by FAITH......that is "counted as Righteousness".....that is defined as "imputed righteousness".

A sinner RECEIVES Salvation.........and Salvation is "The Gift of Righteousness....and "The Gift of Eternal life".

A sinner is "made righteous".......having received from God....>"imputed Righteousness"...

Or as Paul teaches...

""""""David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"" New Living Translation David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it: English Standard Version just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: King James Bible Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

.from a certain verse that is badly translated and poorly understood...

I understand it perfectly.
Any real Christian who has studied the NT, (Romans, Ephesisans, Galatians, and Colossians", and then Timothy and Titus, knows all about "made righteous", and "The Gift of Righteousness", and "imputed righteousness".

You dont know anything about it at all...., as you keep proving and proveing... @Episkopos

and doesn't line up with ANY of the scriptures. Since you lack any wisdom you will not look to see such a VAST scheme mentioned in the OT...or from the mouth of Jesus, or any of the apostles.

Here is an update for you.........> Paul's teaching found in Romans 4 and 9.....that states that the "Gentiles have attained to Righteousness, and not by works, but by FAITH'........is not a conspiracy theory.
Its Paul's Doctrine.
You've spent 40 yrs being religious and not learning it.

You've been caught up in the heresy of Luther

If not for Luther, you'd be twisting a Rosary and burning a Candle to Mary, in Canada.

If not for Paul, the Christian would not have the revelation that they are become "The righteousness of God, In Christ".

Luther perfectly understood God's Grace, as "the Gift of Salvation"...>"without works."

You haven't understood this....at all., and this is Christianity 101.

 

[Episkopos]

A sinner does not "fulfill the righteousness of God".

Agree for once. That's why the believer is empowered by grace to fulfill the law as Jesus did...to overcome by the Blood (life) of the Lamb.