Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

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Behold

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J You are spiritualizing away the truth because you want to be justified.

Only a fool would not want to be justified before God.

Only a Born again believer, HAS been justified, .... = "justification by Faith".. "without works or law keeping".

See, only God can justify a Sinner, and Christ's shed blood and death, is the Blood Atonement.....is the Justification.. and there is no other...

John 14:6
 

ProDeo

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Your verse does not say that keeping commandments is the way to : Salvation.

You can't keep anything to gain God's Salvation, as God's Salvation is "The GIFT of Salvation".

Jesus is Salvation....

Christ died freely to provide Salvation, that God offeres as a ""Gift.""



Hell is filled with water baptized commandment keepers.
Why is that?
Its Because going to Heaven, requries a Spiritual Birth,....and working for God and commandment keeping, cannot provide it.

The Law and commandments, demand righteousness, and no sinner has righteous.
This is why Jesus came........
= He came to deal with the law and our sin, so that God could give us His righteousness., as "The Gift of Righteousness"..
And having recevied the Gift of Rightousness, the Believer has become a "new Creation" In Chirst".... "made righteous".



Keep the 10 commandments as well, that Moses gave us.

However if you want to go to heaven.....here is the way there....... John 14:6

Jesus said.........."You must be born again".....and that is not commandment keeping, law keeping or water baptism.



The will of God is that You "believe in Jesus whom God sent".
The will of God is that you "obey the Gospel".
To "Obey it", is to believe it......(""""Faith is counted by God as (Christ's) Righteousness"""").

"All who call on the Name of Jesus (believing) shall be saved".

Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

No good works after being born again ?

What are the good works which God prepared for us ?

Theory aside, did the Holy Spirit changed your life ?
 

GracePeace

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I thought this thread was going to be on the topic of the Gospel being in the Torah; we are doing a really good job of not keeping on topic.

I only mention it because threads seem to tend to devolve into the conversation we're having; then, every thread becomes the same conversation, indistinguishable from other threads, and someone may have had a point they wanted to raise on the topic. If it's not a problem, then disregard.
 
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Behold

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Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

No good works after being born again ?

"Present your body as a living Sacrifice to God, which is your reasonable service'.

That means, give your life to do good works...., which is your discipeship.......but its not your Salvation, as Jesus is your Salvation.

What are the good works which God prepared for us ?

Whatever His will is for you.
There are a few ways to explain the good works that we should "walk in".
One of the ways to understand it.......is to comprehend what Paul means when He said....>"Ive fought the good fight, ive finished my COURSE".

See that "Course'?
That is an entire life of service for God.
A life of sacrifice to God.
We are to do that also.

Theory aside, did the Holy Spirit changed your life ?

Many changes..
Here are a few.

He revealed Jesus to me, so that i could be born again.
He called me into the ministry.
He enabled me for the ministry.
He taught me Paul's doctrine.
He taught me how to recognize heresy, (false doctrine) and recognize heretics.
He anoints me to share the Gospel and teach the word.
 

Episkopos

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Who are those people?

Anyone posting in this thread?
Read the reaction to the words from Jesus. The false gospel so permeates the modern religious mindset that people think it as nothing to contradict Jesus both openly and defiantly. Willful sins are not covered unless one repents.
 

Episkopos

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I thought this thread was going to be on the topic of the Gospel being in the Torah; we are doing a really good job of not keeping on topic.

I only mention it because threads seem to tend to devolve into the conversation we're having; then, every thread becomes the same conversation, indistinguishable from other threads, and someone may have had a point they wanted to raise on the topic. If it's not a problem, then disregard.
I find that the bible is mostly ignored in favour of whatever feeds an already accepted ideology come hell or high water.
 

shepherdsword

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I thought this thread was going to be on the topic of the Gospel being in the Torah; we are doing a really good job of not keeping on topic.

I only mention it because threads seem to tend to devolve into the conversation we're having; then, every thread becomes the same conversation, indistinguishable from other threads, and someone may have had a point they wanted to raise on the topic. If it's not a problem, then disregard.
People have to actually watch the video to discuss the topic but no one wants to do that. It's too bad because it actually has some good stuff.
 

Behold

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Willful sins are not covered unless one repents.

The born again Christian, is "Not under the Law, but under (God's) Grace""

This is why 2 Corin 5:19, and Romans 4:8 (Paul's doctrine) teach that God doed not charge sin ever again to a Christian.

He can't as the born again are not under the Law, and its because "Jesus has become the ONE TIME... ETERNAL... Sacrifice for sin"...

The Law has been removed, because Jesus has fulfilled it, ..."Jesus has redeemed us from the curse of the law".....so, now the Law can't define a Christian's deeds as sin, or them as a sinner, every again.
This is one of the ways that The Cross of Christ, (the New Covenant) has created the born again as "made free from sin".

Also, almost all sin that anyone commits, is willful.
So, if you are trying to prove that all your carnal behavior you committed in the last week....(that you define as sin)....was all an accident, that you didn't mean to do, then you are again not being honest.. @Episkopos
 

Behold

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I find that the bible is mostly ignored in favour of whatever feeds an already accepted ideology come hell or high water.

No one on this forum, avoids NT Truth, more then you. .......according to your Videos, your Threads, and your Posts.

You dont even comprehend that Jesus died for your Sins.......so, is it any wonder that all you talk about is trying to do works to try to go to heaven, or to keep from going to Hell...

You've even tried to prove that Paul's "Gospel of the Grace of God"... ""is a delusion'"
 

GracePeace

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People have to actually watch the video to discuss the topic but no one wants to do that. It's too bad because it actually has some good stuff.
I actually agree that the Gospel is in the Torah, and I did discuss it a little, I think (unless that was another, similar, thread), but I still haven't watched the intro video presentation, because I wasn't interacting with it directly, but was interacting with another user who was denying the notion that the Gospel was in the Torah. I don't need any persuasion, though (that the Gospel is in the Torah), so I don't think it was wrong to interact with that other user without having first availed myself of the video presentation.
 

Lizbeth

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Jesus became sin through a human interpretation of what He was teaching, seemingly condemning the most faithful followers of Moses.
No, that is only how He was numbered with the transgressors by men, even though innocent. He died the death of a condemned criminal.

Isa 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

It is the Lord who laid on His Son the iniquity of us all, by having Jesus act as proxy in our place on the cross. And because Jesus submitted and consented to His Father's will in this matter.
 
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Episkopos

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No, that is only how He was numbered with the transgressors by men, even though innocent. He died the death of a condemned criminal.

I don't think you understand the crimes that Jesus allegedly committed. You are confusing being NUMBERED with criminals and actually being one. Jesus was seen as a dangerous heretic and blasphemer. The same reaction Jesus would get in todays churches.


Isa 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

On "himself" . Jesus took on himself the sins of the world. I hope you realize that Jesus was without sin. So God would never condemn His Son as a sinner. That is pure fiction.

Read the parable of the vineyard.... Who is killing the Son? The Vineyard owner? or the evil husbandmen?

The bible interprets the bible. Otherwise show an instance where an innocent person is charged with a crime he didn't commit....by God.
It is the Lord who laid on His Son the iniquity of us all,

No...God is righteous and doesn't condemn the innocent. People do that.
by having Jesus act as proxy in our place on the cross. And because Jesus submitted and consented to His Father's will in this matter.
Jesus consented to going through with falling into the hands of evil men. He knew what was in men. The forces of evil were at work. And Jesus didn't resist it. But make no mistake, the evil didn't come from God...but rather the god of this world...as the bible says...had they known what they were doing they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.
 
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ProDeo

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I don't think you understand the crimes that Jesus allegedly committed. You are confusing being NUMBERED with criminals and actually being one. Jesus was seen as a dangerous heretic and blasphemer. The same reaction Jesus would get in todays churches.




On "himself" . Jesus took on himself the sins of the world. I hope you realize that Jesus was without sin. So God would never condemn His Son as a sinner. That is pure fiction.

Read the parable of the vineyard.... Who is killing the Son? The Vineyard owner? or the evil husbandmen?

The bible interprets the bible. Otherwise show an instance where an innocent person is charged with a crime he didn't commit....by God.


No...God is righteous and doesn't condemn the innocent. People do that.

Jesus consented to going through with falling into the hands of evil men. He knew what was in men. The forces of evil were at work. And Jesus didn't resist it. But make no mistake, the evil didn't come from God...but rather the god of this world...as the bible says...had they known what they were doing they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

Code:
Isa 53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?   
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?     
                                                        
Isa 53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, 
and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or   
maIsaty that we should look at him, and no beauty that 
we should desire him.                                   
                                                        
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of 
sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from     
whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we       
esteemed him not.                                       
                                                                                                                
Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our
sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, 
and afflicted.                                         
                                                        
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;     
he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the     
chastisement that brought us peace, and with his       
wounds we are healed.                                   
                                                        
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have   
turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD 
has laid on him the iniquity of us all.                         
                                                        
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet   
he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to     
the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its         
shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.         
                                                        
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken       
away; and as for his generation, who considered         
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,     
stricken for the transgression of my people?           
                                                        
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and   
with a rich man in his death, although he had done no   
violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.         
                                                        
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush     
him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an   
offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he     
shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall     
prosper in his hand.                                   
                                                        
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see   
and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous 
one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous,   
and he shall bear their iniquities.                     
                                                        
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with   
the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the       
strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was
numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin   
of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Not about Jesus?
 
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Episkopos

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Code:
Isa 53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?  
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?    
                                                       
Isa 53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or  
maIsaty that we should look at him, and no beauty that
we should desire him.                                  
                                                       
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of
sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from    
whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we      
esteemed him not.                                      
                                                                                                               
Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our
sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God,
and afflicted.                                        
                                                       
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;    
he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the    
chastisement that brought us peace, and with his      
wounds we are healed.                                  
                                                       
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have  
turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD
has laid on him the iniquity of us all.                        
                                                       
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet  
he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to    
the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its        
shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.        
                                                       
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken      
away; and as for his generation, who considered        
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,    
stricken for the transgression of my people?          
                                                       
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and  
with a rich man in his death, although he had done no  
violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.        
                                                       
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush    
him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an  
offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he    
shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall    
prosper in his hand.                                  
                                                       
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see  
and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous
one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous,  
and he shall bear their iniquities.                    
                                                       
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with  
the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the      
strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was
numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin  
of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Not about Jesus?
Jesus IS the Lord spoken of in IS 53. The Lord supports the Lord...The Lord sends the Lord. But these work together.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and had committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor. 5:19 (a few verse before the corrupted verse)

How can God be the One putting Jesus on the cross? Jesus says forgive them Father...not. Father I forgive You!
 

amigo de christo

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Only a fool would not want to be justified before God.

Only a Born again believer, HAS been justified, .... = "justification by Faith".. "without works or law keeping".

See, only God can justify a Sinner, and Christ's shed blood and death, is the Blood Atonement.....is the Justification.. and there is no other...

John 14:6
Tell that to these anti christs .
Go on take a look at this so called beloved ecumenical interfaith interreligious dialogue.
DID YOU SEE JESUS getting mentioned . NOPE
just fat lies of anti christs . And they want me to be a co helper to this movement . CAN I get a HECK NO
not this sheep . i expose evil .
 
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amigo de christo

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Code:
Isa 53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?  
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?    
                                                       
Isa 53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or  
maIsaty that we should look at him, and no beauty that
we should desire him.                                  
                                                       
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of
sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from    
whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we      
esteemed him not.                                      
                                                                                                               
Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our
sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God,
and afflicted.                                        
                                                       
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;    
he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the    
chastisement that brought us peace, and with his      
wounds we are healed.                                  
                                                       
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have  
turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD
has laid on him the iniquity of us all.                        
                                                       
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet  
he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to    
the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its        
shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.        
                                                       
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken      
away; and as for his generation, who considered        
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,    
stricken for the transgression of my people?          
                                                       
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and  
with a rich man in his death, although he had done no  
violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.        
                                                       
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush    
him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an  
offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he    
shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall    
prosper in his hand.                                  
                                                       
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see  
and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous
one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous,  
and he shall bear their iniquities.                    
                                                       
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with  
the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the      
strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was
numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin  
of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Not about Jesus?
well this DARN SURE aint about JESUS CHRIST . and they want us to be cohelpers and supporters
of this ecumenical interfaith of anti christ . NO SIR . this sheep exposes evil
i dont make my bed of unity WITH IT .
 
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ProDeo

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Jesus IS the Lord spoken of in IS 53. The Lord supports the Lord...The Lord sends the Lord. But these work together.

Code:
                  ESV 2011                              |           Septuagint / LXX
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush      | 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his
him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an    | stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your
offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he      | soul shall see a long-lived seed:              
shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall      |                                                
prosper in his hand.                                    |

Left the Masoretic text, developed during the 7 and 10th century and it replaced the Septuagint / LXX in use in the days of Jesus and the apostles. Obviously the the LXX says something very different than the Masoretic text in our Bible translations. And there is more to the story of Isa 53, the translation found in the Dead See scrolls, another version.

So, how are we going to deal with : Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an
offering for guilt ?

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and had committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor. 5:19 (a few verse before the corrupted verse)

Let's quote it anyway :

2Kor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2Kor 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Kor 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
2Kor 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Kor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
I am pretty sure Paul means : God made Jesus to be sin who [Jesus] knew no sin.

Keep in mind also :

1Petr 1:18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,
1Petr 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
1Petr 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

and :

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Even before A&E were created God the Father and God the Son foreknew everything and what it would cost (all the way to Christ and Him crucified) and yet God the Father and God the Son did not stop and created us after all, ever pondered about that?

I am deeply impressed by His love, can you feel it too?


How can God be the One putting Jesus on the cross? Jesus says forgive them Father...not. Father I forgive You!

I hear you, but keep in mind it was all decided before the foundation of the world, Jesus knew.

Back to : For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin

OT animal sacrifice gave temporarily forgiveness from sin, innocent animals were made sin, we even derived the word scapegoat (Leviticus 16 KJV) from it. It's was of course a foreshadow of the real sacrifice, Jesus who was made sin while He was the real blameless Lamb.
 
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Lizbeth

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I don't think you understand the crimes that Jesus allegedly committed. You are confusing being NUMBERED with criminals and actually being one. Jesus was seen as a dangerous heretic and blasphemer. The same reaction Jesus would get in todays churches.




On "himself" . Jesus took on himself the sins of the world. I hope you realize that Jesus was without sin. So God would never condemn His Son as a sinner. That is pure fiction.

Read the parable of the vineyard.... Who is killing the Son? The Vineyard owner? or the evil husbandmen?

The bible interprets the bible. Otherwise show an instance where an innocent person is charged with a crime he didn't commit....by God.


No...God is righteous and doesn't condemn the innocent. People do that.

Jesus consented to going through with falling into the hands of evil men. He knew what was in men. The forces of evil were at work. And Jesus didn't resist it. But make no mistake, the evil didn't come from God...but rather the god of this world...as the bible says...had they known what they were doing they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.
God creates both good and evil. However, it is self-evident that man and devil did the deed........but why are you ignoring the will and sovereignty of God in the sacrifice that HE chose because it was necessary to fulfill the Law that HE instituted and to "put an end to sin"?

Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Luk 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but THINE, be done.

And did Jesus lay the iniquity of the human race upon Himself or did the men who crucified Him do that? You seem to be contradicting yourself. You say God wouldn't have condemned and killed an innocent man, yet it was the Father who "forsook" Jesus on the cross and allowed Him to die. If this wasn't the will of God, Jesus wouldn't have died, no way, no how. Those who wanted Him dead had every opportunity to kill Him all along as Jesus said Himself to make this very point. And I will mention an example of John the apostle who was boiled in oil, an unsurvivable thing, yet he lived.

Anyway, I'm weary with arguing over foolishness.
 
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Episkopos

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God creates both good and evil. However, it is self-evident that man and devil did the deed........but why are you ignoring the will and sovereignty of God in the sacrifice that HE chose because it was necessary to fulfill the Law that HE instituted and to "put an end to sin"?

Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Luk 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but THINE, be done.

And did Jesus lay the iniquity of the human race upon Himself or did the men who crucified Him do that? You seem to be contradicting yourself. You say God wouldn't have condemned and killed an innocent man, yet it was the Father who "forsook" Jesus on the cross and allowed Him to die. If this wasn't the will of God, Jesus wouldn't have died, no way, no how. Those who wanted Him dead had every opportunity to kill Him all along as Jesus said Himself to make this very point. And I will mention an example of John the apostle who was boiled in oil, an unsurvivable thing, yet he lived.

Anyway, I'm weary with arguing over foolishness.
Why does God allow evil in the world? Why does He say not to resist evil?

All things work together for good to those who are the called and love God.

"But as for you, you thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Gen 50:20

This is about Joseph but it is also prophetic and displays how God works good through evil.


So then the false statement "He made Him to be sin for us who knew no sin" stands as false. God doesn't condemn the innocent. EVIL MEN made Jesus to be sin. But God turned the evil against His Son into a fulfillment of God's righteousness to "save much people".

Mankind's unrighteousness was transformed into the means of fulfilling God's righteousness. That's what the verse means.

It is not a scheme of covering up sins and more unrighteousness.
 
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Lizbeth

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Why does God allow evil in the world? Why does He say not to resist evil?

All things work together for good to those who are the called and love God.

"But as for you, you thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Gen 50:20

This is about Joseph but it is also prophetic and displays how God works good through evil.
I agree with this.

And resisting not the evil can be a way of submitting oneself to God's will, if that is what one is doing in fact.
 
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