What happened to the 10 toes in Daniel 2?

[Brakelite]

@CTK
I would also suggest that your thinking regarding the Adventist view on the ten horns as being solely secular, is incorrect. As I mentioned in a post elsewhere, upon which I could readily elaborate if questioned, the prophecy explicitly refers to several characteristics of the little horn and the progression of the surviving 7 through the mix of clay and iron. That clay component is not secular, but religious, and the history of Europe is deeply indebted to the machinations of church/state politics and religious persecution through those states that were used as papal agents in her rise to power. The first King of the Franks is a case in point. Used by the papacy in those early days, Clovis warred relentlessly on behalf of the papacy and was responsible in a large part in the dismantling of power of the first of the 3 horns. This was that church state union that characterised the parody throughout is history and remains so today, and which is being today remarkably and prophetically implemented by the rising of the image of the beast in America... An image to that very same union which began with Clovis. Other of those horns were equally subservient to the popes, with the exception of those that refused to submit to papal authority, and were subsequently uprooted. The reason? Not secular, but religious. They were Arian. At least that was the accusation that is today commonly accepted, however I suspect the term Arian today doesn't mean precisely the same as it did centuries, and whether those nations were truly Arian in the modern sense of the word is doubtful. After all, we are taking their enemy's word for that. But nevertheless, they were defeated for religious reasons, not secular. Adventism does not view them solely as a secular paradigm, not by any means.
All those nations at one time or other accepted the gospel. That it was distorted through papal influence is a matter of history and and spiritual truth.

 

[Brakelite]

Also. While the papacy was rising in the 5th century and finding its independence from Gothic interventions in the 6th, the growing Catholic faith was not, nor had it ever been the only shop in town. Her persecutions against non conformist Christian churches that by that time had spread throughout the known world, from Britain to Africa and all of Asia as far as China, had forced the local churches in Italy, France, and the near East into the wilderness. These churches in the wilderness, like the Waldenses, the Albigenses and the Cathars, while all accused of heresies and the vilest of crimes, continued to teach, preach, and evangelize the true gospel. A careful reading of the prophecies and of history reveals these people as dominant agents of God which you view as the worthless clay. With this a disagree. While the early church had been imprisoned and restricted by the iron of Rome, these people from later periods were free, albeit the subject of the most horrendous crusades and pogroms.

 

[JLB]

Thanks for your thought. Do you have any thoughts on who they are, when they came to be, what is their purpose within God's prophecies? Why are they destroyed? Thanks.

These two verses carry a lot of revelation.

As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Daniel 2:43-44


These 10 kings will rule 10 “kingdoms” or regions in the last days.

Satan will express his dominion through these kings and kingdoms of this world and will persecute Christians during the great tribulation.

The antichrist will be among them.


I personally believe these 10 kings are fallen angels who are loyal to Satan and will inhabit hybrid bodies to rule these 10 regions or kingdoms in the last days.

• As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men;

“They” is a “person” but not the seed of men.


Jesus said just as in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of man, for “they” will be marrying and given in marriage.


Who was marrying and given in marriage in the days of Noah that brought about the flood?

 

[Davy]

Another false argument by attacking the writer of the message rather than commenting on the message presented.
....

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Anyone can simply mouth... against one speaking the truth of God's written Word without their posting the actual Bible Scripture to prove it.

Funny how those illiterate backward knuckleheads think they can get by with their stupid slanders as if they are speaking truth.

Let's look at some of the Ezekiel 37 Chapter events that prove just what time it is a prophecy for. One will discover that it is a prophecy for the future regarding Christ's coming and gathering of the children of Israel back to the holy lands of promise and the re-establishing of the original nation of Israel involving ALL 12 tribes, and David as their king again.

Ezek 37:13-28
13 You shall know that I am Yahweh, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, my people.
14 I will put my Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land: and you shall know that I, Yahweh, have spoken it and performed it, says Yahweh.

Who isn't bright enough to realize the above subject is God speaking about the future resurrection of the dead, and specifically about the seed of Israel that has died being raised? When is that supposed to happen folks? On the LAST DAY of this present world when Jesus returns. That sets this Ezekiel 37 Chapter's topic; it's about the end of this world.

15 The word of Yahweh came again to me, saying,

16 You, son of man, take one stick, and write on it, 'For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions': then take another stick, and write on it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions':

God then tells Ezekiel to take 2 sticks, and upon one stick write for Judah and his companions; and then on the other stick write for Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and the "house of Israel" his companions. What's that about?

It is about the 1 Kings 11 subject of when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms in Solomon's day because Solomon had allowed his many foreigner wives to bring their idol worship in among the children of Israel. God split the kingdom, and He gave Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to be "king of Israel" over the ten tribes that dwelt in the northern holy land, and that ten tribe kingdom became known as the "house of Israel."

The other stick, for Judah, was about the southern kingdom at Jerusalem-Judea ruled over by Solomon's son Rehoboam, of the house of David. The tribe of Benjamin was joined with Judah and Rehoboam at Judea. And when Jeroboam setup two calf idols in the north for the ten tribes to worship, the Levites in the north left and traveled south to join with Judah and Benjamin. A small remnant out of the ten tribes also did the same and left the north. These became the "kingdom of Judah", also called the "house of Judah". AND THIS IS HOW IT STILL IS TO THIS DAY, the two groups are still separated to this day, and have not been JOINED back together.

17 and join them for you one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.
18 When the children of your people shall speak to you, saying, "Will you not show us what you mean by these?"

19 tell them, "Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them with it, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand.

20 The sticks whereon you write shall be in your hand before their eyes.

21 Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all;

23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

Mind you, God is NOT speaking ONLY about JEWS being gathered above. The ten tribes were NOT KNOWN AS JEWS. The Jewish historian Josephus said that title of 'Jew' originated from the sole tribe of Judah, and those with Judah also took that name, including the strangers that returned back from Babylon to Jerusalem with Judah. In the above God is speaking of JOINING BOTH STICKS, the ten lost tribes of Israel AND the Jews of the "house of Judah" back together into one KINGDOM as before Solomon's error.

24 My servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them.

Once again in that future time when God through His Son Jesus Christ will GATHER all 12 tribes of Israel back together as ONE NATION again in the holy land, David will be their king again, but he will be under that "one shepherd", so who is that? That "one shepherd" represents our Lord Jesus Christ, KING of kings, and LORD of lords. In case you don't quite understand that point, it means JESUS CHRIST having RETURNED back to this earth and reigning in JERUSALEM with His elect over the nations!

25 They shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, forever: and David My servant shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore.
27 My tent also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
28 The nations shall know that I am Yahweh Who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.
WEB


WARNING:
The majority of the Jews of the "house of Judah" are still spiritually blinded away from The Gospel of Jesus Christ today. They will remain that way until Jesus returns.

The ten tribes of Israel of the "house of Israel" which God scattered first, are still to this day separated from the Jews. They are considered LOST, even by the Jews. Per God's prophet Hosea, God said He would scatter the ten tribe "house of Israel" in the wilderness and let them have the full weight of their Baal idol worship they forgot Him for. The ten tribes would lose their identity and heritage as part of Israel, no longer observing God's feast days, new moons, or sabbaths. They would become AS Gentiles, living among Gentiles. Thus it still is to this day. But for Judah, God said He would not do that to, and that's why the JEWS have kept knowledge of their identity and heritage of old Israel, including Israel's feast days, new moons, and sabbaths.

Many in the Christian West simply do not realize they may have a heritage from the ten lost tribes of Israel. Yet God said He knows where they are, and that He will gather them out of the countries; this Ezekiel 37 Chapter is one of the Biblical Truths about that future... gathering, which He showed about that future gathering of the stick of Joseph that is in the hand of Ephraim, because Ephraim represented the largest of the northern ten tribes, and out of Ephraim God would setup Jeroboam to be "king of Israel" over the ten tribes (1 Kings 11).

However, the DECEIVED JEWS of the "house of Judah" DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS. Instead, the Jews today are trying... to claim that God has already done the gathering of His people back to the holy land, and made them one nation again. Many young Jews in today's Israel don't even know about Jesus. So it's easy for them to be deceived by the political Jews.

 

[CTK]

These two verses carry a lot of revelation.

As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Daniel 2:43-44


These 10 kings will rule 10 “kingdoms” or regions in the last days.

Satan will express his dominion through these kings and kingdoms of this world and will persecute Christians during the great tribulation.

The antichrist will be among them.


I personally believe these 10 kings are fallen angels who are loyal to Satan and will inhabit hybrid bodies to rule these 10 regions or kingdoms in the last days.

• As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men;

“They” is a “person” but not the seed of men.


Jesus said just as in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of man, for “they” will be marrying and given in marriage.


Who was marrying and given in marriage in the days of Noah that brought about the flood?

Thank you for your thoughts!

 

[Jay Ross]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Anyone can simply mouth... against one speaking the truth of God's written Word without their posting the actual Bible Scripture to prove it.

Funny how those illiterate backward knuckleheads think they can get by with their stupid slanders as if they are speaking truth.

Let's look at some of the Ezekiel 37 Chapter events that prove just what time it is a prophecy for. One will discover that it is a prophecy for the future regarding Christ's coming and gathering of the children of Israel back to the holy lands of promise and the re-establishing of the original nation of Israel involving ALL 12 tribes, and David as their king again.

Davy, where I would disagree with what you have written is only with a couple of mistranslations of a few Hebrew words which changes our understanding of where God will continue to place the Israelites after He has planted them in His Fertile Field/Soil based upon His Religion that Jesus is the Son of God, that foundation stone, which will "descend" down from Heaven, untouched by human hands, to become the largest religion on all of the earth during the Seventh Age.

The Ten Toes represent a coming together of nations and their kings to invade the Land of Babylon to heal the land rather than to destroy the Land of Babylon. Recent history confirms that this has happened when Iraq was invaded in 2003, led by the king of the north at that time, the President of the USA. It is this coalition of kings who are the ten toes of the Daniel 2 Statue Prophecy over the land of Babylon. Jeremiah set out this prophecy in Chapters 50-51 of the Book of Jerimiah. Jerimiah also tells us what the consequences for these nations that joined with the USA to invade Iraq in one verse Jer 51:14 and also what happen to the weather patterns that followed after 2003 in verse Jer 51:16.

It is after this time that God will begin to establish His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth when the completion of the Exodus 20:4-6 and Daniel 8:9-14 after which Paul, in Romans 11:25b-26, states that all of Israel will be saved. It is my understanding that the completion of the Exodus 20:4-6 and the Daniel 8:9-14 prophecy will occur in around 20 years from now.

Now basing our understanding of the poorly presented English Translations does not help us to really understand what God's prophetic words are informing us of.

God's promise in Genesis 12:3 is that God will bless those who bless you and will curse him who curses you; and through you all the families inhabiting My fertile soil/field shall be blessed, but this understanding does not appear in the present translations because of the focus in many peoples' minds is still on the "Promised Lands" rather than on God and embracing His future promises.

What happens to the ten toes in Daniel 2, they will be crushed and along with the rest of the statue, they will be turned into dust/chaff to be blown away by the wind of the Holy Spirit that will prevail after the Judgement of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon around the years 2044 AD plus or minus a year or two either side of 2044.

Oh well this will all become clearer after Armageddon happens in our near future.

Let us be patient to see who the real present day "prophets" will be on the end times. Perhaps, a few on this forum will be included among them.

 

[Davy]

Davy, where I would disagree with what you have written is only with a couple of mistranslations of a few Hebrew words which changes our understanding of where God will continue to place the Israelites after He has planted them in His Fertile Field/Soil based upon His Religion that Jesus is the Son of God, that foundation stone, which will "descend" down from Heaven, untouched by human hands, to become the largest religion on all of the earth out during the Seventh Age.

BRETHREN IN CHRIST JESUS:
Jay is trying to be a self-styled prophet, as if he knows some kind of secret from Bible Scripture that only the 'prophets' know about. It's all a HOAX play, even his style of speaking. I've seen that kind of rhetoric speaking among philosophers who try to act all-knowing as if God speaks directly to them.

Fact is today, THERE ARE NO MORE PROPHETS like those whom God personally spoke to and gave to write down His Word in The Bible. There is no more need, because WE ALREADY HAVE THE WORD OF PROPHECY written in God's Word! It is a simple matter of our Bible study like Apostle Paul said, and of course being given to understand by The Holy Spirit through which God's Word was written by His prophets into letters for us. Thus you will NEVER hear me claim to be a prophet, nor that anyone else living today is a prophet sent from God.

And thus they MISS the SIMPLICITY of many Bible Scriptures. Even in the above Jay 'abuses' the future prophecy in Daniel 2 about Jesus' future 2nd coming and smiting the ten horn beast upon its feet. Jesus will setup His Eternal Kingdom on earth, NOT RELIGION like Jay instead tries to say. Faith in Jesus Christ is not a religion, it is God's Truth. Religion is the idea of man... trying to appear holy and righteous to themselves and to others while worshiping something.

And the idea that God will "continue to place the Israelites" is Jay suggesting that only the JEWS that have returned to the holy land to create the little nation called Israel today is what the Ezekiel 37 Chapter is about, which of course shows again his missing the simplicity of that Ezekiel 37 Scripture, for it instead is about the gathering of ALL 12 tribes back to the ALL of the lands God originally promised Israel, and will only happen when Jesus returns...

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
KJV

When does the above happen? At Jesus' future 2nd coming when He comes to inherit David's EARTHLY throne, and sets up His eternal Kingdom on earth. That... is when His 12 Apostles will also sit upon those 12 thrones over the returned... 12 tribes of Israel in the holy lands of promise.

The Jews in the holy land today ONLY represent the 1 Kings 11 prophecy which God gave about "one tribe", the "house of Judah", where God said He would always leave one tribe at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake (1 Kings 11:36-39). That one tribe represented the tribe of Judah, and then the tribes of Benjamin and Levi with him in the southern holy lands, at Judea.

Today, that one tribe still... is who middle east Israel represents. It does NOT represent a return of all 12 tribes of Israel, for the majority of the tribes of Israel today are still scattered, even lost to the Jews for they don't even know where the ten lost tribes of Israel are today. And that even though The Word of God does give many hints so some would know, like in the Book of Hosea. Even the Apocrypha contains hints of where the lost ten tribes of Israel would migrate to out of their lands of captivity. But today's JEWS don't know, and one branch of Jewish scholars even claim the ten lost tribes are GONE FOREVER, never to be joined back with the "house of Judah" into one kingdom again.

Yet the very topic of the Ezekiel 37 Chapter is the joining together in final at Jesus' 2nd coming of the two symbolic 'sticks' where the stick of Joseph in the hand of Ephraim represents the lost ten tribes of Israel being joined back with the stick of Judah to form the old kingdom of Israel again in the holy land with ALL.. 12 tribes of Israel! Today, ONLY the Jews of the old southern kingdom of Judah are there in the holy land nation called Israel, and that's per God's promise in 1 Kings 11:26-39, the "one tribe".

WHO then would be telling today's JEWS lies about today's gathering of the Jews back to the holy land representing a return of all twelve tribes? Who would deny that Ezekiel 37 Chapter prophecy that is clearly written about the FUTURE joining of the ten tribes back with Judah to form the full kingdom of Israel at Christ's return? Today's Israel possesses very little of the promised lands which God originally gave the children of Israel, so who cannot figure out that that Ezekiel 37 prophecy has not happened yet today, and definitely was NOT the forming of the nation of Israel again in 1948?

It is a group of FALSE JEWS that reign over the nation of Israel in the holy lands today, the SAME groups that had Jesus murdered at His 1st coming. Jesus called them the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev.2:9; Rev.3:9). They are the crept in unawares among Judah. They are the foreigner Kenite scribes that became keepers of the letters of God's Word which sided with the blind Pharisees against Lord Jesus Christ. The scribes and Pharisees Jesus warned sit in Moses seat (1 Chronicles 2:55; Matthew 23:2; Matthew 5:20). That is how it still is to this day among the Orthodox Jews, especially in the nation of Israel in the holy land, and their Jewish followers that live in the countries. Today's JEWS want it all for themselves, and even think they only... represent true Israel today! They are going to get a shock when they see Jesus returning in the clouds, and His gathering of the ten lost tribes that is still in the hand of Ephraim to this day.

 

[Jay Ross]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST JESUS:
Jay is trying to be a self-styled prophet, as if he knows some kind of secret from Bible Scripture that only the 'prophets' know about. It's all a HOAX play, even his style of speaking. I've seen that kind of rhetoric speaking among philosophers who try to act all-knowing as if God speaks directly to them.

Another rebuttal based on the false argument of attacking the message rather than commenting on the content of the post.

If as you claim that I am not using the scriptures to justify what I am posting, then I would agree with you that I should be considered to be a false prophet, but that accusation also points your own finger at yourself as to also being a false prophet.

Let me give an example of this is what Davy is claim I was stating: -

And thus they MISS the SIMPLICITY of many Bible Scriptures. Even in the above Jay 'abuses' the future prophecy in Daniel 2 about Jesus' future 2nd coming and smiting the ten horn beast upon its feet. Jesus will setup His Eternal Kingdom on earth, NOT RELIGION like Jay instead tries to say. Faith in Jesus Christ is not a religion, it is God's Truth. Religion is the idea of man... trying to appear holy and righteous to themselves and to others while worshiping something.

Here is what I was actually stating in my post above: -

Davy, where I would disagree with what you have written is only with a couple of mistranslations of a few Hebrew words which changes our understanding of where God will continue to place the Israelites after He has planted them in His Fertile Field/Soil based upon His Religion that Jesus is the Son of God, that foundation stone, which will "descend" down from Heaven, untouched by human hands, to become the largest religion on all of the earth during the Seventh Age.

The Ten Toes represent a coming together of nations and their kings to invade the Land of Babylon to heal the land rather than to destroy the Land of Babylon. Recent history confirms that this has happened when Iraq was invaded in 2003, led by the king of the north at that time, the President of the USA. It is this coalition of kings who are the ten toes of the Daniel 2 Statue Prophecy over the land of Babylon. Jeremiah set out this prophecy in Chapters 50-51 of the Book of Jerimiah. Jerimiah also tells us what the consequences for these nations that joined with the USA to invade Iraq in one verse Jer 51:14 and also what happen to the weather patterns that followed after 2003 in verse Jer 51:16.

It is after this time that God will begin to establish His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth when the completion of the Exodus 20:4-6 and Daniel 8:9-14 after which Paul, in Romans 11:25b-26, states that all of Israel will be saved. It is my understanding that the completion of the Exodus 20:4-6 and the Daniel 8:9-14 prophecy will occur in around 20 years from now.

Now basing our understanding of the poorly presented English Translations does not help us to really understand what God's prophetic words are informing us of.

You, the silent readers, of the threads and what is posted will judge who is being honest with their posts.

It is my prayer that you the silent readers will come to a better understanding of the scriptures.

 

[Davy]

Another rebuttal based on the false argument of attacking the message rather than commenting on the content of the post.

If as you claim that I am not using the scriptures to justify what I am posting, then I would agree with you that I should be considered to be a false prophet, but that accusation also points your own finger at yourself as to also being a false prophet.

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Jay has WRONGLY INTERPRETED the Ezekiel 37 Chapter to be about a totally disconnected idea from the actual written Bible Scripture. He tries to ADD PASSAGES IN BOLD to the Ezekiel 37:21-23 Scripture which are NOT written, as per his quote in his post #210.


Here is what the 1611 KJV Bible states about the Ezekiel 37:21-23 gathering, of which the 24th and 25th verses are also part of that topic, yet Jay omitted them in his quote...

Ezek 37:21-25
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

The majority of English Bible translations agree with that phrase "bring them into their own land", pointing specifically to the holy land in the middle east.

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

That above in red also confirms that GOD is speaking of the lands of promise that He promised the children of Israel, which is in the holy land in the middle east, and definitely NOT about the lands of the whole earth. Also, God is specific that He will gather the two separate 'houses' of Israel into ONE NATION again in that holy land of promise. Even Jay cannot get around God's example in that Ezek.37 Chapter about the joining of the two symbolic sticks of Israel into one stick, representing that future restoration of the old nation of Israel in the holy land.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
KJV

That above 25th verse really... seals the proper interpretation that I have shown about God in final gathering all 12 tribes of Israel back SPECIFICALLY to the EXACT lands He promised originally to His servant Jacob! To try and go around that future prophecy given DIRECTLY FROM GOD HIMSELF is blasphemy against what God has said He will do.



Another falsehood Jay Ross has said...

Jay Ross said:
"We have already seen the fulfilling of the Daniel 2 ten toes during this present time."

The reality per the 'written' Bible Scripture about the feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with clay, per Daniel 2, is that the ten toes represent the "ten horns", and the "ten horns" represent the "ten kings" that ONLY receive power with the beast king for "one hour" at the very END of this world, i.e., during the "great tribulation" time. This is what the Revelation 17:12-14 Scripture reveals in simplicity. Thus ANY suggestion that the ten horns are ruling today already, or in the past, or even are associated with the United States of America, is a BOGUS interpretation NOT supported anywhere in God's written Word!

Sadam Hussein tried to REBUILD THE CITY OF BABYLON, the U.S. did not.! When GOD led the U.S. and its western allies to defeat Sadam Hussein's regime, the U.S. actually represented symbolically the role of Cyrus the Great who historically conquered the Babylon of old, and freed the Jews from their Babylon captivity. Today, the city of Babylon in Iraq still sits in ruins, like God said it would.

Therefore it is SO EASY to judge between what I have SHOWN from the ACTUAL WRITTEN BIBLE SCRIPTURE vs. Jay Ross' made-up fabrications on Ezekiel 37.

 

[Jay Ross]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Jay has WRONGLY INTERPRETED the Ezekiel 37 Chapter to be about a totally disconnected idea from the actual written Bible Scripture. He tries to ADD PASSAGES IN BOLD to the Ezekiel 37:21-23 Scripture which are NOT written, as per his quote in his post #210.


Here is what the 1611 KJV Bible states about the Ezekiel 37:21-23 gathering, of which the 24th and 25th verses are also part of that topic, yet Jay omitted them in his quote...

Ezek 37:21-25
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

The majority of English Bible translations agree with that phrase "bring them into their own land", pointing specifically to the holy land in the middle east.

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

That above in red also confirms that GOD is speaking of the lands of promise that He promised the children of Israel, which is in the holy land in the middle east, and definitely NOT about the lands of the whole earth. Also, God is specific that He will gather the two separate 'houses' of Israel into ONE NATION again in that holy land of promise. Even Jay cannot get around God's example in that Ezek.37 Chapter about the joining of the two symbolic sticks of Israel into one stick, representing that future restoration of the old nation of Israel in the holy land.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
KJV

That above 25th verse really... seals the proper interpretation that I have shown about God in final gathering all 12 tribes of Israel back SPECIFICALLY to the EXACT lands He promised originally to His servant Jacob! To try and go around that future prophecy given DIRECTLY FROM GOD HIMSELF is blasphemy against what God has said He will do.



Another falsehood Jay Ross has said...

Jay Ross said:
"We have already seen the fulfilling of the Daniel 2 ten toes during this present time."

The reality per the 'written' Bible Scripture about the feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with clay, per Daniel 2, is that the ten toes represent the "ten horns", and the "ten horns" represent the "ten kings" that ONLY receive power with the beast king for "one hour" at the very END of this world, i.e., during the "great tribulation" time. This is what the Revelation 17:12-14 Scripture reveals in simplicity. Thus ANY suggestion that the ten horns are ruling today already, or in the past, or even are associated with the United States of America, is a BOGUS interpretation NOT supported anywhere in God's written Word!

Sadam Hussein tried to REBUILD THE CITY OF BABYLON, the U.S. did not.! When GOD led the U.S. and its western allies to defeat Sadam Hussein's regime, the U.S. actually represented symbolically the role of Cyrus the Great who historically conquered the Babylon of old, and freed the Jews from their Babylon captivity. Today, the city of Babylon in Iraq still sits in ruins, like God said it would.

Therefore it is SO EASY to judge between what I have SHOWN from the ACTUAL WRITTEN BIBLE SCRIPTURE vs. Jay Ross' made-up fabrications on Ezekiel 37.

Davy, spend some time with an interlinear and see how the translators have not translated the true context in these verses.

That is what I have done, and I have published what I have found in my posts.

If I am wrong, then really present the evidence as to why I am wrong and why i understand that these verse tell a very different contextual story.

 

[Davy]

Davy, spend some time with an interlinear and see how the translators have not translated the true context in these verses.

That is what I have done, and I have published what I have found in my posts.

If I am wrong, then really present the evidence as to why I am wrong and why i understand that these verse tell a very different contextual story.

I have more than one Interlinear Bible, but it's not needed for what that Ezekiel 37 Scripture covered showing GOD is pointing specifically to the holy lands of Promise that He originally promised to Jacob.

Hebrew adamah (soil or ground) cannot change what God had previously promised to Jacob and the children of Israel. Nor does it have to mean the whole... earth. It means the specific 'land' God promised Israel. So changing to read fertile soil, or ground, matters NOT.

 

[Jay Ross]

I have more than one Interlinear Bible, but it's not needed for what that Ezekiel 37 Scripture covered showing GOD is pointing specifically to the holy lands of Promise that He originally promised to Jacob.

Hebrew adamah (soil or ground) cannot change what God had previously promised to Jacob and the children of Israel. Nor does it have to mean the whole... earth. It means the specific 'land' God promised Israel. So changing to read fertile soil, or ground, matters NOT.

So, you are so confident in your understanding and interpretation that you have no need to check out what I am suggesting would be a better paraphrasing of Ezekiel 37. In other words, you have not bothered even to verify what you believe is the right paraphrasing.

Your understanding is biased by the Jewish understanding of God's so termed forever promise of the Promised Land.

In other words, you do not know whether or not what I am suggesting is a better paraphrasing or not.

 

[Davy]

So, you are so confident in your understanding and interpretation that you have no need to check out what I am suggesting would be a better paraphrasing of Ezekiel 37. In other words, you have not bothered even to verify what you believe is the right paraphrasing.

You didn't do any paraphrasing, you TOOK AWAY from Bible Scripture and you ADDED to Bible Scripture.

The idea of a paraphrase means keeping the SAME parameters of the Bible Scripture, but just putting it into other words. What you did was to BUTCHER the original Bible Scripture, not paraphrase.

 

[Jay Ross]

You didn't do any paraphrasing, you TOOK AWAY from Bible Scripture and you ADDED to Bible Scripture.

The idea of a paraphrase means keeping the SAME parameters of the Bible Scripture, but just putting it into other words. What you did was to BUTCHER the original Bible Scripture, not paraphrase.

Davy, this is just your opinion without any justification or verification as to whether or not how I paraphrased the original text was more correct or not.

The Genesis 15:17-21 description of the land that they would possess for a period of time was a confirmation sign covenant that when they realise that the Israelites had possession of the listed land parcels, then they would also know that their possession of the whole earth will be true at the end of the seventh age.

The possessed land was given after Israel crossed the Jorden River and was stripped from them after the death of Solomon. After Solomon the Genesis 17 promise that Israel would live in the Land of Canaan until it too was taken from them when the nation of Israel was completely scattered into all of the earth.

In Ezekiel 34 this is what God promised concerning God's Gathering of the Israelite people to Himself: -

Ezekiel 34:11-31: - God, the True Shepherd​

​

11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver/rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and will bring them into their own fertile field; I will feed them on the mountain of Israel, {a metaphor for Israel’s religious basis}, {where they are living} in the {river} valleys and in all the inhabited places of the earth. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountain of Israel, {i.e. the religious basis of Israel}. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountain of Israel {i.e. the religious basis of Israel}. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. 16 "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment." ​

​

17 'And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats. 18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture — and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet."​

​

20 'Therefore, thus says the Lord God to them: "Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them — My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken.​

​

25 "I will make a covenant of peace with them and cause evil beasts to cease from the earth; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe within my fertile field; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the earth devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. 29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger on the earth, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. 30 Thus they shall know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord God.'"​

​

31 "You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God," says the Lord God.​

NKJV with a few words rephrased.​

For the nation of Israel to be a blessing in all of the earth, the Israelites must remain scattered throughout all of the earth for them to be a blessing to all of the people on the earth, particularly to those who also chose to live and draw nourishment from God's fertile fields.

There is so much more depth to be found in God's word if we are willing to look for them in the Hebrew Texts.​

 

[Davy]

In Ezekiel 34 this is what God promised concerning God's Gathering of the Israelite people to Himself: -

​

Ezekiel 34:11-31: - God, the True Shepherd​

​

11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver/rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and will bring them into their own fertile field; I will feed them on the mountain of Israel, {a metaphor for Israel’s religious basis}, {where they are living} in the {river} valleys and in all the inhabited places of the earth. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountain of Israel, {i.e. the religious basis of Israel}. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountain of Israel {i.e. the religious basis of Israel}. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. 16 "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment." ​

​

​

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
The above in 'red' is an example of how Jay Ross has butchered the actual Scripture away from its LITERAL meaning.

Jay Said:
"I will feed them on the mountain of Israel, {a metaphor for Israel’s religious basis}, {where they are living} in the {river} valleys and in all the inhabited places of the earth."

Jay ADDED HIS OWN TWIST with that "{a metaphor for Israel's religious basis}". The actual Scripture is pointing specifically... to the MOUNTAIN OF ISRAEL, meaning the actual holy lands of Promise that GOD had promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Jay has instead tried... to turn the LITERAL meaning about the holy land into the idea of a RELIGION! Can you believe how ignorant and stupid doing that is?

Likewise, with Jay's note "{where they are living}", is his ADDING to Scripture again, trying to change what it actually says as written. Jay is attempting to REMOVE God's declaration there about the specific HOLY LAND in the middle east that He promised to Jacob, and instead SUPPLANT that with his own idea that it doesn't mean just the holy land God promised Israel, but instead THE WHOLE EARTH, when that Scripture does NOT point to the whole earth!

So Jay Ross can ACT... like his feelings have been hurt all he wants, but he has clearly shown his heresy against God's written Word.

 

[Jay Ross]

Well, the verse Ezekiel 34:13 in the Interlinear looks like this: -


Now let us look at H:0127: -




Now let us look at H:2022: -




And lastly let us look at H:0766: -



Now just looking at how these three words were translated and what their meaning is, what I have suggested as to how this verse should be understood, makes more sense that how the original translators paraphrased this verse.

So, Jay Ross can ACT... like his feelings have been hurt all he wants, but he has clearly shown his heresy against God's written Word.

Davy, I am happy to let God Judge as to whether or not I have presented a better understanding than what the Translators have done with the Hebrew text.

If I am wrong, then people will choose to disregard what I am posting, and they can also choose to disregard what you are posting with your false arguments against my post. Davy, If God judges that your contextual understanding is best, then so be it, I am more than happy to tip my hat to you and say well done, but your present rebuttals are only showing that you are presenting a number of grave errors in what you have and are posting.

Goodbye now

 

[Davy]

Well, the verse Ezekiel 34:13 in the Interlinear looks like this: -
....

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Don't be deceived by how some try to use an Interlinear Bible to 'change' what English Bible translations say as written. God always gives at least 2 witnesses of a matter, and that He was pointing specifically to the lands of Promise He originally promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is shown in more than one Bible Scripture in Ezekiel 31 or 37.

Also, there exists more than one Interlinear Bible put together by different scholars. My BibleSoft program has one, but I do not rely on it.

 

[Jay Ross]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Don't be deceived by how some try to use an Interlinear Bible to 'change' what English Bible translations say as written. God always gives at least 2 witnesses of a matter, and that He was pointing specifically to the lands of Promise He originally promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is shown in more than one Bible Scripture in Ezekiel 31 or 37.

Also, there exists more than one Interlinear Bible put together by different scholars. My BibleSoft program has one, but I do not rely on it.

Davy, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid that all of your posts have been based on error and as such you have to rile up against another member who is pointing out that your commentary style understanding may be contextually flawed.

Take for example Genesis 13:14-17

Genesis 13:14-17: - 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you.”

NKJV​

The PC StudyBible/Biblesoft software provides this interlinear for the above verses: -



This is how I understand the context of these verses should read with my changes to fix the contextual errors in the NKJV translation:

Genesis 13:14-17: - 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for the entity of the earth which you see I give this entity to your descendants for a period of time where the end point of this period will be beyond their ability to comprehend. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for Me to give this entity."

My above paraphrasing is in line with what Stephen stated in Acts 7:5: - "5 And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on. But even when Abraham had no child, He promised to give it to him for a possession, and to his descendants after him."

God promised that Abraham and his descendants would inherit the whole earth after the completion of the age of the seven ages, that is in the distant future, even now.

So, the translation of H:5704 and H:5769 as “forever” is a desired bias of the Jews, whereas if we look at the meaning of these words, its meaning is more in keeping with this: “for a period of time where the end point of this period will be beyond their ability to comprehend.”

God started to give the “Promised Land,” as described in Genesis 15:17-21, after Israel went up a second time to enter the Land of Canaan, and then took Israel’s possession of this land from them except for the Land of Canaan because of their idolatrous worship.

Davy, contextual accuracy is important, and if we do not hold to that contextual accuracy then we will be leading our readers on this forum astray.



Goodbye

 

[Wish-it]

In Daniel 2, God identified the 4 metal kingdoms in His plan of salvation and restoration for His people and mankind. The four kingdoms are quite easily identified (IMO), as:

1) Gold - Babylon,

2) Silver - Medes- Persia,

3) Bronze - Greece,

4) Iron - Rome

Now, we easily can see that God's 4 kingdoms are all constructer of a different metal type.

But within the 4th iron kingdom of Rome, He places a non-metallic element within the feet of this kingdom - clay. And certainly, we all know that clay and any metal does not combine.

In the beginning of chapter 7, God gives us a new set of symbols for these same 4 kingdoms, but now we notice there has been some significant changes, apart from the different symbol, to the iron kingdom. Now, we see an unidentifiable 4th beast kingdom with 10 horns coming out of it. No more mention of the clay and no more mention of the 10 toes.

So what happend to the 10 toes?

The ten toes are listed in Psalm 83, the 10 groupings that wish to destroy Israel. They will make a agreement to mix together, but will not remain united, ie the treaty will break down as iron does not mix with clay. And islam will not remain united with Israel-clay. During that period of breakdown, Israel will become become as Zech 14 says and a the time of Jacob will begin and end with Zech 12.1+ and the remnant saved Zech 12.10+. The ten nations of Psalm 83, will be destroyed, with the coming of the Lord and His army, Dan 2.44. The little horn, the king of Assyria, is from the Psalm 83 nations. He is the eighth king, but belongs to the seven, (the ten horns less three Dan 7.24, 11.41,) is an eight king but is going to his destruction. Rev 17.11

 

[Wish-it]

Papal Rome is not in the book of Daniel. The little horn person in Daniel 8 is a time of the end person.

Daniel 8:17 - time of the end
Daniel 11:35 - time of the end
Daniel 11:40 - time of the end
Daniel 12:4 - time of the end
Daniel 12:9 - time of the end


View attachment 67037

Douggg, I agree re Dan 8 it is the many of the end, specifically in Dan 8.19 it states in the time of wrath. So late in the day.
But Europe, not convinced. Islam in my view - the descendants of Ishmael and Esau. Rom 9.10-18. Gen 16.11,12, Gen 27.39,40