Rapture ... soon?

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 25
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[Scott Downey]

Luke 19

The Parable of the Minas​

11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately.

12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten [e]minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’

15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’

20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are [f]an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’

24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’ 25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) 26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”

 

[HealthyShape]

Do you really think Christ has returned?

I think it is what the text predicted and how the disciples and the apostles understood it.

I see a lot of evidence in history (Josephus, Tacitus) that the signs and events happened as predicted, including the sign of the Son of Man in heavens. So, what can I do? Say that it failed? I do not want to change or manipulate the text like in futurism/historicism.

 

[HealthyShape]

Yes, the LORD did indicate a very long period of time BEFORE His Second Coming.

It is in the Gospel and specifically in Matthew ch24 and the Book of Daniel

Where did Jesus indicate that? He said the opposite, actually: "But in those days, after that tribulation...this generation will not pass away etc."

No long pause indicated in the text.

 

[Scott Downey]

Luke 17

22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them.

24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

When the Son of Man returns, revealed to the unbelieving world, in the sky, all the wicked and unbelieving are destroyed, then the people of God inherit all things, including the earth.
Matthew 13 here is the same as the return of Christ in Mark 13, 2 Thess 1 and so on.

The Parable of the Tares Explained​

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[HealthyShape]

Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

When the Son of Man returns, revealed to the unbelieving world, in the sky, all the wicked and unbelieving are destroyed...

In the days of Lot, the "all" destroyed were the people in Sodom. Not all evil people on the planet. And so it was with Jerusalem.

We are wandering from the chronology of events as Jesus presented them, though. You are just saying that you would expect it to be much more global than just about Judea/Jerusalem, but that is a different issue than the time frame.

 

[soberxp]

Ongoing trials and tribulations coming against the church, supporting scriptures, and the remedy is the return of Christ.

10:16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Don't fantasize, face the reality, then you can move forward correctly.

 

[David in NJ]

Where did Jesus indicate that? He said the opposite, actually: "But in those days, after that tribulation...this generation will not pass away etc."

No long pause indicated in the text.

Crystal clear in Daniel and Matt ch24

#1 - Genesis is first to declare long time periods of God's Working of the Gospel
#2 - Daniel chapter 2 & ch12 declares the world kingdoms that must be established and run their course before His 1st and 2nd Coming
#3 - Matthew ch24 = "And this gospel will be preached in all the world and then the End will Come.

 

[Scott Downey]

In the days of Lot, the "all" destroyed were the people in Sodom. Not all evil people on the planet. And so it was with Jerusalem.

We are wandering from the chronology of events as Jesus presented them, though. You are just saying that you would expect it to be much more global than just about Judea/Jerusalem, but that is a different issue than the time frame.

You and others aways ignore 2 Thess 1 though.
And all the others that speak of the destruction of all the wicked all over the world.
This is found in both old and new testaments for all the nations.

Like here, Jeremiah 25

30 “Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them:

‘The Lord will roar from on high,
And utter His voice from His holy habitation;
He will roar mightily against His fold.
He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes,
Against all the inhabitants of the earth.

31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth—
For the Lord has a controversy with the nations;
He will plead His case with all flesh.
He will give those who are wicked to the sword,’ says the Lord.”
32 Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Behold, disaster shall go forth
From nation to nation,
And a great whirlwind shall be raised up
From the farthest parts of the earth.

33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It is not only Pretribbers that are being deceived and trying to deceive others. It's also Preterists and those who are not Preterists themselves, yet align with Preterist thinking, that are being deceived and trying to deceive others. How, you might ask? Simple--Matthew 24:21. The latter would have us believe that is not involving great wrath upon the church in the final days of this age, it's involving what happened to the Jews leading up to 70 AD. Therefore, no Christian has anything to worry about in the future regarding Matthew 24:21, because it has already been fulfilled almost 2000 years ago.


What then are these Pretribbers so scared of then, so scared to face in the future, if not Matthew 24:21 and what all that will be involving, such as the 42 month reign of the beast? That's what they are hoping to escape via a rapture before Matthew 24:21 begins being fulfilled, is it not? That's the only tribulation I'm aware of in the NT that calls it great tribulation. Not just great tribulation, but such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

From what I can tell, most Amils, though maybe not all Amils, insist Matthew 24:21 has already been fulfilled almost 2000 years ago. Sure, there are some Premils that insist that as well, yet I have noted more Amils insisting that than I have noted Premils insisting that. It mainly seems to be Amils that are more aligned with Preterist thinking than Premils being aligned with Preterist thinking.


Imagine that, agreeing with Preterists in Matthew 24 when Preterists can't even remotely interpret Matthew 24:30,31,34 correctly, for example. But somehow they can interpret Matthew 24:21 correctly, though?

Pretribbers and Preterists and those that align with Preterists have a lot in common. Both insist that the literal city of Jerusalem and a literal temple there is meant in Matthew 24:15-21. And both insist great tribulation is involving great tribulation upon unbelieving Jews. Regardless that Christ made the 2nd temple or any future rebuilt temple obsolete when He died and then the moment He rose.

Therefore, the holy place meant in Matthew 24:15 couldn't possibly be meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed, nor a rebuilt one in the future. Unless one wants to speak with a forked tongue and insist any and all man-made temples became obsolete when He died and then the moment He rose, thus no longer the holy place, but that the holy place meant in Matthew 24:15 is meaning a man-made temple, maybe the 2nd temple before it was destroyed, or maybe a rebuilt one in the future.

And the ironic thing about it is this. If Pretribbers argue for a rebuilt temple in the future, these same Preterists and those that align with them will then argue how can it mean a rebuilt temple in the future when Christ had already made man-made temples obsolete by His death and resurrection 2000 years earlier?

Talk about being hypocritical here. The holy place can't mean a rebuilt temple 2000 years after Christ died and rose but it can be and is meaning the 2nd temple 40 years after He died and rose. Except the argument is--Christ had already made man-made temples obsolete by His death and resurrection. Therefore, how can a rebuilt temple in the future not be valid but a 2nd temple 40 years later can be valid? No matter how you look at it, both views undeniably contradict the argument that Christ had already made man-made temples obsolete by His death and resurrection, period. As in end of story.

Rather than this instead---any and all man-made temples became obsolete when He died and then the moment He rose, therefore, the holy place meant in Matthew 24:15 can't be meaning a man-made temple, period.

And so what if I can't explain what the following might look like if not meaning in the literal sense--But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day(Matthew 24:20). But guess what? I also can't explain what the fleeing recorded in Revelation 18:4 might look like either, since I also do not take that in the literal sense.

Actually, in regards to Matthew 24:20, I don't need to explain anything to begin with. Christ's death and resurrection already explains it, that the holy place meant in verse 15 can't be meaning a man-made temple. Therefore, Matthew 24:20 can't be meaning in the literal sense unless it is a flat out lie that Christ's death and resurrection made any and all man-made temples obsolete, therefore, no man-made temple can be the holy place from that point on, ever again--- not 40 years later nor 2000 years later.

Ironic that you have taken an erroneous position , while accusing us of the same thing you are doing.

Pretrib rapture is what Jesus taught.

I can quite handily defend his words.

Take any one of the pretrib rapture verses and we can go toe to toe.

First you need to know them.
That is problematic.
I know your doctrine.
You, or any postribber, does not know where the rapture verses are, yet through that omission, and men of old with limited Revelation, formulated your doctrine off of false supposition and omission.

No thank you.
You are GUARANTEED error.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The last days were in the 1st century. You do not know what you are talking about.

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Heb 1:2

No
Last days means...cue drum roll.....LAST DAYS.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The gathering before the Flood is = PRE-WRATH = 1 Thess 1:10 and 1 Thess 5:9

Jesus defined the setting of the rapture.
In mat 24...(you know the sentences that destroy postrib doctrine.)

Normal life.

Ahem...exactly opposite your doctrine.

 

[WPM]

It's too bad for all you fellas that have decided you are going thru the great tribulation.

Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

What are you talking about? The text you present has absolutely nothing to do with a future rapture.

1. Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
2. Where is a 3 1/2 trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
3. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

 

[WPM]

Jesus defined the setting of the rapture.
In mat 24...(you know the sentences that destroy postrib doctrine.)

Normal life.

Ahem...exactly opposite your doctrine.

More noise, zero evidence!

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

 

[WPM]

no, at the rapture event, all those who are dead will rise and be reunited with their bodies that are in Heaven...For on those part of His church will this cover. After these rise, the living at that time will be caught up in the air and their bodies will immediately be changed into the body ready for heaven. Millions of graves will be opened, and millions (estimated 70-100million in the USA, with much less in the rest of the world.) will disappear...This will immediately put the USA into a third party country. All the good/believers are gone...Only unbelievers are left behind.

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

 

[WPM]

And you are building all this just on the sentence that Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until their times are fulfilled? Don´t you think it is weak? Jesus makes no indication there will be any thousands of years period between the events.

Are 40 years a short or long time to man?
Are 1000 years a long time in your estimation?

 

[WPM]

And you are building all this just on the sentence that Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until their times are fulfilled? Don´t you think it is weak? Jesus makes no indication there will be any thousands of years period between the events.

While Preterists would have us believe that Jesus is contradicting Himself, we know that Matthew 25:14, 19-30 and Revelation 20 are looking at time form man’s perspective. After all, Moses instructs in Psalms 90:3-5: “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.”

2 Peter 3:8-9 reinforces this thought: “beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack (or slow) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (slowness).”

Our view of time is completely different from God's. There is a big difference between God’s heavenly eternal perspective and our earthly temporal perspective, something you do not seem to grasp. Eternity is not simply a vast amount of time, but a state of being that transcends the limitations of past, present, and future. While humans are bound by linear time, God exists outside of space and time, in a timeless realm. He had no beginning, and He has no end.

The phrases “a long time” and “a short time” are all subject to the one talking, their perspective and the subject matter under discussion. From man's perspective 2000 years is a long time. From God's perspective it is not. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

The objective and informed Bible student will see the contrast between the thousand years in Revelation 20 which represents a long time and Satan's little season which represents a short period of time near the end.

 

[HealthyShape]

Crystal clear in Daniel and Matt ch24

#1 - Genesis is first to declare long time periods of God's Working of the Gospel
#2 - Daniel chapter 2 & ch12 declares the world kingdoms that must be established and run their course before His 1st and 2nd Coming
#3 - Matthew ch24 = "And this gospel will be preached in all the world and then the End will Come.

Where did Jesus place the preaching of the gospel to all the nations, in His chronology? Before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD or after?

If we just read the text and if we do not try to change it or to rearrange it, Jesus mentions the preaching of the gospel between the signs like famines and the attack on Jerusalem. That would be since 37 AD (or 41 AD if you wish to begin from the famine mentioned in Acts) till 70 AD.

 

[HealthyShape]

You and others aways ignore 2 Thess 1 though.
And all the others that speak of the destruction of all the wicked all over the world.
This is found in both old and new testaments for all the nations.

Like here, Jeremiah 25

30 “Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them:

‘The Lord will roar from on high,
And utter His voice from His holy habitation;
He will roar mightily against His fold.
He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes,
Against all the inhabitants of the earth.

31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth—
For the Lord has a controversy with the nations;
He will plead His case with all flesh.
He will give those who are wicked to the sword,’ says the Lord.”
32 Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Behold, disaster shall go forth
From nation to nation,
And a great whirlwind shall be raised up
From the farthest parts of the earth.

33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.

I wanted to talk about the words of Jesus, but I see you want to jump to other places. OK, 2 Thess 1 - what about it?

Do we agree that Mt 24 (and the analogies in Mark and Luke) do not support any futurism, first?

 

[HealthyShape]

No
Last days means...cue drum roll.....LAST DAYS.

"Last days means last days" is nothing said.

It is not the end of the physical universe, which you probably imagine. How do we know? Because it did not end in the 1st century. But the 1st century were the last days, biblically:

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Heb 1:2

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18

..the ends of the ages have come.
1Cor 10:11

Does "the last hour" mean ... cue drum roll ... LAST HOUR?