Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture

[Cross8527]

No.

Seven years safety from wrath.

Rapture IS:
An Escape from the Great Trib.
- (not appointed to suffer wrath)

A Redemption.
- (being claimed by He who saved him)

A Resurrection.
- Risen up in their new body above the Earth, to meet their Lord.

Return to Earth When and With the Lord, when He Returns.


Similar thing that happened to Noah & (family) (First Great Trib)
(Small world population / 8 saved)

You know even though I am not entirely sure if I believe in a pretrib rapture I did have a dream in 2017 I had given up on the rapture at that point and I had a dream where father told me don't give up on the rapture because it is closer than you think

If this is to be true then I can only imagine he meant it

 

[soberxp]

No.

Seven years safety from wrath.

Rapture IS:
An Escape from the Great Trib.
- (not appointed to suffer wrath)

A Redemption.
- (being claimed by He who saved him)

A Resurrection.
- Risen up in their new body above the Earth, to meet their Lord.

Return to Earth When and With the Lord, when He Returns.


Similar thing that happened to Noah & (family) (First Great Trib)
(Small world population / 8 saved)

No, you rap true you never know.

 

[Bladerunner]

mp

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

Ok, The falling away comes first (the apostasy in the majority of churches today) It is already here. Note, the Rapture does not need any event to happen...There is no judgement in the Rapture. The revealing of the anti-christ can only happen after the "Restrainer is removed" Who is the restrainer????The Holy Spirit within each true believer around the world..It is the Christians, the true believers who fight the evil that will overwhelm the world in Daniel's 70th week. Imagine, the level of evil that was present when Hamas raided that Jewish town and murdered, raped and degraded those Jewish people. Now imagine this all over the world when the restraining is gone from the world...You will find this evil everywhere. Jesus tells us in Rev. 3: 10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The church of Philadephia was one of two churches in the 7 letters that Jesus specifically wrote to through John. This church represents the fate of the majority of the nation from the late 1800s, threw the 1970s. After this, the apostasy away from Jesus Christ has been growing until today, it is now the majority of the false faith in the USA, indeed the world. Rem, this level of evil will overwhelm most all with the exception of the "Elect". The wars and rumors of wars are running rampant in every section of the earth. Just a matter of time before the millions of true believers are "caught up" to the clouds to meet Jesus....Keep the faith. God's words do not lie. Blessings.

 

[Taken]

No, you rap true you never know.

Don’t get your point.

 

[soberxp]

Don’t get your point.

You don't need to know.
Facts cannot be altered by false opinions, because God says,I will be what I will be.

Either you are wrong, or I am wrong, or we are all wrong.

 

[Taken]

You don't need to know.
Facts cannot be altered by false opinions, because God says,I will be what I will be.

Either you are wrong, or I am wrong, or we are all wrong.

I do not know you or other posters on this forum, or what all do.
I know myself, what I study, how I study, length I study and who I ask for understanding of what I study….
And why I speak, post with Confidence, Conviction, Contentment, whether or not an other agrees.

Hod bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

In the Bible the rapture is the resurrection,
raptrue Used to describe the feeling of resurrection,
But it is understood that believers are taken from the world while they are alive.

How is it that they are both alive and raised with Jesus Christ?

How is it that they are both alive and raised with Jesus Christ when resurrection?

There are two ideas in Christian theology.

One is the RAPTURE.
NOT every denomination believes in the rapture.
In fact, in was never taught in the early church but came about as a teaching in the 1800's.

Differing viewpoints exist about the exact time of the rapture and whether Christ's return would occur in one event or two. Pretribulationism distinguishes the rapture from the Second Coming of Jesus Christ mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew, 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation. This view holds that the rapture would precede the seven-year Tribulation, which would culminate in Christ's second coming and be followed by a thousand-year Messianic Kingdom.[3][4] This theory grew out of the translations of the Bible that John Nelson Darby analyzed in 1833. Pretribulationism is the most widely held view among Christians believing in the rapture today, although this view is disputed within evangelicalism.[5] Other views include midtribulation, prewrath, and posttribulation rapture.

Most Christian denominations do not subscribe to rapture theology and have a different interpretation of the aerial gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4.[6] They do not use rapture as a specific theological term, nor do they generally subscribe to the dispensational theology associated with its use.[7] Instead they typically interpret rapture in the sense of the elect gathering with Christ in Heaven directly after the Second Coming and reject outright the idea that a large portion of humanity will be left behind on earth for an extended tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.[6][8]

source: Rapture - Wikipedia

• 
  

 

[GodsGrace]

@soberxp


The doctrine of the Rapture, in its specific dispensational premillennialist form, is a relatively recent development, emerging in the 1830s. Its modern formulation is widely attributed to John Nelson Darby and Margaret Macdonald in Scotland around this time, who described a secret, pre-tribulation rapture of the church. While the concept of being "caught up" (the literal meaning of "rapture") existed earlier in Christian history, the specific idea of a pre-tribulation separation of the church is a 19th-century innovation that gained significant popularity in the 20th century.

Origins of the Rapture Doctrine

• 1830s:
  Margaret Macdonald, a young Scottish woman associated with the Irvingite movement, reported receiving a revelation of a pre-tribulation Rapture, where a select group of Christians would be "caught up" to meet Christ in the air before the Antichrist's reign.
  
• John Nelson Darby:
  Around the same time, John Nelson Darby, a founder of the Plymouth Brethren movement, developed and systematized this idea into a comprehensive dispensationalist theology. He articulated his views of a pretribulational rapture by 1833, based on his belief in a distinct future for Israel and the Church.
  

Historical Context and Spread

• Ancient and Medieval Precedents:
  While Darby's specific formulation was new, some historians point to isolated instances or beliefs that predate the 19th century, such as the writings of Morgan Edwards in 1744 or the Apostolic Brethren around the 14th century, who held similar but less influential ideas about being taken up to heaven.
  
• 19th-Century Popularization:
  The ideas were disseminated by figures like Dwight L. Moody and through influential texts like the Scofield Reference Bible, which helped spread dispensationalism and the Rapture concept throughout America.
  
• 20th and 21st Centuries:
  The Rapture doctrine continued to gain traction, especially in the United States, and became a significant aspect of evangelical eschatology, amplified by cultural phenomena like the Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth," Jack Chick's pamphlets, and the "Left Behind" book series.
  

Key Aspects of the Rapture Doctrine

• Pre-Tribulation:
  This is the belief that the church will be raptured before a period of intense tribulation on earth.
  
• Dispensationism:
  This theological framework emphasizes distinct periods (dispensations) in God's relationship with humanity, holding a literal interpretation of Scripture and a future role for Israel.
• 
  
• source: Google AI
  
  
  I'm not a fan of Google AI, but it happens to explain the theory very well.
  If you ask any American Christian what the rapture is, he'll tell you that it is the gathering of all believers that are alive, to be taken to heaven so that they do not experience the great tribulation which is spoken of in the NT and Revelation.
  This belief did not exist, ever, in the church until the 1800's, as I've stated.
  Instead the RESURRECTION is at the end of the world...when Jesus comes back.....All those living will be caught up with Jesus, in the air and will go to heaven in their new glorified bodies. The dead will be RESURRECTED, at the same time, and will also go with Jesus in their glorified bodies....again, this happens at the end of the world.
• 
  
• Not all Christians believe in the rapture. They believe that the end will come and there will be tribulation on earth....but those living at that time will go through the tribulation.
  ALL Christians believe in the resurrection...when, at the end of the world, those living will be gathered with Jesus and go to heaven and those that are dead will be RESURRECTED to their new glorified bodies.......(those born again will go to heaven).

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey @GodsGrace how have you been? I would say that the scriptures speak of us meeting him in the air and it also speaks of him coming in his glory to destroy the antichrist now these might be the same event but it also could be seen as two seperate events because of the meeting in the air part at least that is what I have seen people argue.

To be honest I myself am not entirely sure if they are the same event because there does seem to be a difference when you read them back to back but I personally thiink it is more likely that yes it is one event

All good Cross.
My understanding is that Jesus is coming back one time and not two times.
The one time He is coming back will be to gather up EVERYONE....
those that are still living will be gathered in the air with Him and will receive their glorified bodies....(the saved of course)....
those that were already dead will be resurrected to their new glorified bodies and join Jesus - all this at the same time.

I'll stop here because, as I've stated I just don't know enough about this...
I DO believe Jesus is coming back one time only.

The rapture was an unknown teaching till very recently....see my post just above to soberxp....
as you know...I don't care for new theology that did not exist at the time of the Apostles.

 

[soberxp]

@GodsGrace
Perhaps both are right, the so-called secret church, since it is a secret church, it is not us ordinary human beings, The angels who travel between heaven and earth, who often look like humans, can quietly leave the earth when Jesus Christ returns,even not.

 

[soberxp]

All good Cross.
My understanding is that Jesus is coming back one time and not two times.
The one time He is coming back will be to gather up EVERYONE....
those that are still living will be gathered in the air with Him and will receive their glorified bodies....(the saved of course)....
those that were already dead will be resurrected to their new glorified bodies and join Jesus - all this at the same time.

I'll stop here because, as I've stated I just don't know enough about this...
I DO believe Jesus is coming back one time only.

The rapture was an unknown teaching till very recently....see my post just above to soberxp....
as you know...I don't care for new theology that did not exist at the time of the Apostles.

Jesus Christ transcends time, so it's not what we think of as chronological order, so the exact words in the Bible are those that are still alive.

But we all need to experience death to receive glorified bodies....RESURRECTED and so called
Born again, that time is true born from the holy spirit. We born from The Spiritual Adam and the bride./Church.

We can agree and disagree,but finally what we teach should be same with what the Bible says.

So forget about the rapture, it can be find in some Bible version, but not in the kjv.

For those who are familiar with the Bible verses, I will not quote every verse that proves these words, please.


By the way,in Chinese language the "raptrue" Translated as Moments of ecstasy，So I thought the resurrection moment was that emotion.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace
Perhaps both are right, the so-called secret church, since it is a secret church, it is not us ordinary human beings, The angels who travel between heaven and earth, who often look like humans, can quietly leave the earth when Jesus Christ returns,even not.

OK.
Except that the resurrection is referring to humans.
Angels already have the body that they will have forever.

We humans do NOT have our glorified bodies yet.
These bodies we have will die and become corrupt.
The glorified bodies we receive AT THE RESURRECTION will never again become corrupt...
they will last for all eternity.

 

[soberxp]

OK.
Except that the resurrection is referring to humans.
Angels already have the body that they will have forever.

But since The event of resurrection is described as the meeting in the sky with Jesus，
Why can't angels meet Jesus in the sky?

A lie needs a reasonable word to fit.

 

[Cross8527]

All good Cross.
My understanding is that Jesus is coming back one time and not two times.
The one time He is coming back will be to gather up EVERYONE....
those that are still living will be gathered in the air with Him and will receive their glorified bodies....(the saved of course)....
those that were already dead will be resurrected to their new glorified bodies and join Jesus - all this at the same time.

I'll stop here because, as I've stated I just don't know enough about this...
I DO believe Jesus is coming back one time only.

The rapture was an unknown teaching till very recently....see my post just above to soberxp....
as you know...I don't care for new theology that did not exist at the time of the Apostles.

Actually it is not a new teaching the event is spoken of in scripture as you know the harpazo/ catching away or snatching away is spoken of several times in scripture

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus Christ transcends time, so it's not what we think of as chronological order, so the exact words in the Bible are those that are still alive.

But we all need to experience death to receive glorified bodies....RESURRECTED and so called
Born again, that time is true born from the holy spirit. We born from The Spiritual Adam and the bride./Church.

We can agree and disagree,but finally what we teach should be same with what the Bible says.

So forget about the rapture, it can be find in some Bible version, but not in the kjv.

For those who are familiar with the Bible verses, I will not quote every verse that proves these words, please.


By the way,in Chinese language the "raptrue" Translated as Moments of ecstasy，So I thought the resurrection moment was that emotion.

Also in English RAPTURE can be mean ECSTACY.
This is why translating anything is not easy.
I speak 3 languages and know this...
you speak at least two languages and you also must know this.

I'm not sure what you mean about Jesus transcending time...
of course Jesus transcends time...what does this have to do with the resurrection?
Jesus transcends time but WE do not...
for us the end will come, both individually and as a species.

The rapture is not found in any bible...and the KJV states exactly what all other bibles state.
If the rapture were in the bible, it would have been found by theologians a couple of thousand years ago...
but it was not because it's not there.

If you want to believe in the rapture, it does not create any problem....
it is not a salvation issue.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually it is not a new teaching the event is spoken of in scripture as you know the harpazo/ catching away or snatching away is spoken of several times in scripture

Cross....you know me...I always go back to the beginning.
Theologians always existed....it's not like someone woke up one morning and discovered some new verses that no one had ever noticed before. The rapture is a new teaching. I hope you read my two posts above about this.
Nos 47 and 48.

So where in scripture does it state that there will be a rapture?

 

[soberxp]

I'm not sure what you mean about Jesus transcending time...
of course Jesus transcends time...what does this have to do with the resurrection?
Jesus transcends time but WE do not...
for us the end will come, both individually and as a species.

That is to say, although we are born at different times, we will meet with Jesus Christ at the same time when the resurrection takes place. The Bible mentions the first resurrection, yet it says nothing about the second resurrection. In other words, all those who are resurrected will meet together when the first resurrection is completed.

 

[GodsGrace]

But since The event of resurrection is described as the meeting in the sky with Jesus，
Why can't angels meet Jesus in the sky?

Angels could meet with Jesus in the sky anytime.

This thread is not about the angels...
it's about humans meeting with Jesus in the sky.

A lie needs a reasonable word to fit.

The above sentence makes no sense in English.
Expressions cannot be translated.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is to say, although we are born at different times, we will meet with Jesus Christ at the same time when the resurrection takes place. The Bible mentions the first resurrection, yet it says nothing about the second resurrection. In other words, all those who are resurrected will meet together when the first resurrection is completed.

Yes. Although we are born at different times and will die at different times.

ALL will meet with Jesus at the resurrection.

I don't know what you mean by the first resurrection and the second resurrection.
There is ONLY ONE.

 

[soberxp]

Angels could meet with Jesus in the sky anytime.

This thread is not about the angels...
it's about humans meeting with Jesus in the sky.

The above sentence makes no sense in English.
Expressions cannot be translated.

So you agree that this is the moment of resurrection, right?

So forget about the angel meeting with Jesus Christ, and then do you find
raptrue is fake.