What is the state of the dead in the afterlife?

[Bladerunner]

Paul was an anointed Christian, with a “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1)...not all Christians have the “heavenly calling”. It is God who gives this expectation to those who wrote the Christian Scriptures....they were invited to heaven to rule with Christ in his Kingdom....but a Kingdom is pointless if it only has rulers....they need subjects for whom to act as rulers, judges and priests. (Rev 20:6) God gave these ones an inordinate desire to go to heaven, to “be present with the Lord”.

we all that are true believers have a heavenly calling.. For as the apostles did minus the miracles, we are to spread the WORD of GOD to the masses. At one time Paul stated that the whole world had been preached to...yet, in two thousand years, so many are born and unless they are born of a believing family, they chances of their hearing the word diminishes with age.. As for the true believers, in heaven, Jesus tells us we are to become kings and priest.. Rem, Jesus is the high priest and the Meshiach Nagid, Messiah, the King. He was and is still the highest prophet. Many mortals will walk into the kingdom, the millennium of Heaven and many mortal babies will be born. Not so in Heaven where the Church that Jesus built will live. Rem, the Tree of Life will apply to these mortals so they continue to live the 1,000 years. The true believers of His Church will receive bodies modified for Heaven. A scripture I like, is as follows. 1Jo3:2.."Dear friends, we are already God's children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is." ....The earth will be full of True believers living off the land and worshiping Jesus Christ along with us.

These are to be “resurrected first”, (1 Thess 4:15-17) in order that, when Jesus comes to judge mankind, the kingdom will already be set up, prepared to take on the rulership that Jesus has been waiting to administer ....to restore all that was lost when the rebellion took place in Eden.

The Bible tell us that He will restore the earth back to its former self in the first days of Adam and Eve. where the animals will graze on grass, the cow will eat with the bear...quite a sight to be seen. Howeveer, after the thousand years, this old earth will be atomically destroyed and rebuilt for all those to have. the New Jerusalem will come out off heaven, Not built by human hands and HOVER of the earth where it light will give the whole earth light for ever and ever. Yeah

The words of the Lord’s Prayer demonstrate why the ‘coming’ of the Kingdom will mean that God’s will can finally be done “on earth as it is in heaven”. Jesus taught us to pray for the Kingdom to “come” to us, because the majority of redeemed mankind will live on a restored earthly paradise.

Oh, Yes they will and the glory goes all to Jesus for it.

Jesus came to give us back all that Adam took from his children. We have to understand what we lost in order to appreciate what will be restored. (Rev 21:2-4)

At the very end, Yes. in fact the tears that are to wipe away are those tears I suspect are for those who did not make it.

Thank you so much, it is getting harder to find another true believer. Everyone wants to add their version and then Yeah, hath said God.....but in the end, He did not say that and they will be held responsible for their false words.

 

[Brakelite]

Several scriptures seem to support soul sleep and other scriptures seem to support immortality. I am going to attempt to list the scriptures that support both different beliefs, and see what we can find out? And does everyone get life?

Some scriptures that seem to support soul sleep:
Starting with Genesis does the Bible explain immortality or soul sleep?

1. "you shall surely die" -Genesis 2:17
2. "dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -Genesis 2:7
3. "For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” -Ge. 3:19
4. "For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same
[ **breath/spirit ]" - Ecc. 3:19, 20
5. When his [ *spirit/breath KJB ] departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish. -Psalm 146:4
6. "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing," -Ecc. 9:5
7. But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. -Isaiah 26:19
8 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death.... -Hosea 13:14 NKJV
9. John 5:28-29, John 11:24-25, Acts 24:15, 1 Corinthians 15:21, 1st Thessalonians 4:14, Rev. 20:12-13
10. No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. NASB -John 3:13
11. For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand. Berean Standard Bible -Acts 2:34
12. ...The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day. -John 12:48 Holman Christian Standard Bible
13. ...And I will raise them up at the last day. -John 6:44
14. And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days. Daniel 12:13 Peshitta Bible
15. And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and [ *the life breath/spirit KJB ] returns to God who gave it. -Ecc. 12:7 New American Bible

[ **Berean Standard Bible - breath/spirit - Peshitta Holy Bible ]
[ * Berean Standard Bible - spirit/breath - King James Bible ]
[ *New American Bible - the life breath/spirit - King James Bible ]

Some scriptures that seem to support immortality:
1. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. NIV
2. 2nd Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. New King James Version
3. Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” NIV
4. Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” NIV
5. John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
6. John 11:26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” NLT
7. 1 Corinthians 15:12 "Resurrection"
8. Matthew 25:46 "Eternal life"
9. John 3:16 life "Eternal life"
10. Psalm 23:6 "dwell in the house of the Lord forever"
11. John 5:24 "Eternal life"
* Scriptures say few find life Matt. 7:14, Believers get everlasting life John 3:16, Some do not get life John 3:36, Some does not have life 1st John 5:12

Note: Why would the Bible record scriptures that disagree? With a closer look I found some scriptures could be be taken two different ways, for example:
I have noticed that Ecclesiastes 12:7 can be taken in two different ways:
- one way it sounds like your spirit goes back to God, which seems to support immortality.
- another way it sounds like your life breath/spirit returns to the God who gave it. which seems to support soul sleep.

- one way: And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” -Luke 23:43 NKJV
- another way: Accordingly, a fifth-century Curetonian Syriac version renders Jesus’ reply: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.'” --Luke 23:43

Comma placement

In Luke 23:43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Could this also be interpreted as, “I say to you today, you will…” In other words is it more likely that “today” describes when “you will be with me” or when “I say to you”. kai eipen auto, Amen soi...

www.textkit.com

- another way to look at these three scripture: John 11:25 & 26 and Luke 20:38 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” NLT, Maybe they will never die because they will always be in God's memory, and God will resurrect them on judgment day, so in this sense they will be awakened to a new life, so they never really die. And now all the scriptures agree and make sense collectively?

What do you think, do these scriptures make sense to you?

Some may say "the immortal soul is from a spiritual, heavenly perspective" So why does the Bible even include words that supports a different perspective?

"you shall surely die" "For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” "For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other" "he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish" "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing," "let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy"
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death." "And I will raise them up at the last day" "The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day." "And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days

You noted the early experiences of those in the garden, the statements of God compared with that of the serpent, and the fact that it is true the both Adam and Eve did indeed die. Unless of course one thinks they went to hell and have been there 6000 years longer than others going there today. Jack I'm sure will have a great explanation for that seeming anomaly regarding God's justice. But I digress. When leaving the garden what did God do? He set a guard at the gate, so that no-one in the future could enter into the garden. Why is that do you think? Obviously, the garden remained there for some time after Adam and Eve left. I can imagine them both going back from time to time, maybe to offer sacrifice, and pray to the Good they had walked with there. Anyway, my point is this. God Himself declared why He set a guard there. So no sinner could eat of the tree of life and live forever. Therefore, there is no such thing as an immortal sinner. This agrees with the NT statements regarding the truth that only God is immortal. But, some will say, it is the spirit of man that is immortal. And I would reply, God is Spirit. He is an immortal spirit. And He is the only immortal Spirit. Men die. The whole man. Not just the body. The soul, that is the life, the whole person, that sins shall die. Ezekiel.
Those other texts that Walter quoted that suggest eternal life, do not contradict the above. But eternal life is not unconditional. It's a gift. Says so in scripture. And that gift comes to us in the reality of the resurrection, a resurrection which takes place at the second coming for those who are in Christ, and fury those who remain as corpses because the died outside of Christ, their resurrection, the resurrection of damnation, takes place at the end of the 1000 years. But they aren't resurrected to eternal life. They are informed why they must die the second death. Because they refused the salvation and forgiveness offered them when they were alive.
The judgement isn't against people. The judgement is against the sin they love and refuse to repent of. And if they cleave to sin, they are destroyed with it.

 

[walter]

You noted

I agree with most everything you said, Everlasting Life is a free gift in the first place, why do I say in the first place, because Jesus died for our sins He's the one that paid the price, not us.

But John 3:36 explains not everyone gets life and Jesus says in another place the road to life is narrow and only few are finding it. I think when we find Jesus words to mean what he says we are on the right track, when we change the meaning of Jesus words that puts us on the wrong track.

So why are we obedient to Jesus' instructions, simply put the Bible asked us to be obedient several times, so we are.

 

[Brakelite]

So why are we obedient to Jesus' instructions, simply put the Bible asked us to be obedient several times, so we are.

Yes, the Bible is clear that only those who do the Father's will, obeying His commandments, will see life. Therefore that gift of eternal life is conditional. But we aren't to obey, we can't obey, on our own. "Without Me ye can do nothing" Jesus said. John 15:5. It is only through a change in character and the development over time of a radically changed biblical worldview, that we can do good. And those changes happen through abiding in Christ. By beholding we are changed. Through the washing of the word we are made righteous and holy. Through faith in the promises of God we may partake of the divine nature.
“2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. ”
2 Peter 1:2-4 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

The truth is to be planted in the heart. It is to control the mind and regulate the affections. The whole character must be stamped with the divine utterances. Every jot and tittle of the word of God is to be brought into the daily practice. He who becomes a partaker of the divine nature will be in harmony with God's great standard of righteousness, His holy law. This is the rule by which God measures the actions of men. This will be the test of character in the judgment.

 

[walter]

Yes, the Bible is clear that only those who do the Father's will, obeying His commandments, will see life.

I agree with you, I appreciate your love for Jesus, his Father and the Bible.

 

[St. SteVen]

There are not two separate and conscious parts to us that separate at death....we are one human being.....as God created us...we are “a soul” whilst we breathe.....and the soul is entirely mortal. It dies when breathing stops. There can be no separation of body and soul as they are one and the same thing.

Recent NDE experiences indicate a separation between body and soul.
Patients undergoing life-saving resuscitation procedures witnessed the event from outside their body.
Looking down on the scene, they witnessed what happened and reported it to doctors.

[

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Several scriptures seem to support soul sleep and other scriptures seem to support immortality. I am going to attempt to list the scriptures that support both different beliefs, and see what we can find out? And does everyone get life?

Some scriptures that seem to support soul sleep:
Starting with Genesis does the Bible explain immortality or soul sleep?

1. "you shall surely die" -Genesis 2:17
2. "dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -Genesis 2:7
3. "For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” -Ge. 3:19
4. "For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same
[ **breath/spirit ]" - Ecc. 3:19, 20
5. When his [ *spirit/breath KJB ] departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish. -Psalm 146:4
6. "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing," -Ecc. 9:5
7. But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. -Isaiah 26:19
8 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death.... -Hosea 13:14 NKJV
9. John 5:28-29, John 11:24-25, Acts 24:15, 1 Corinthians 15:21, 1st Thessalonians 4:14, Rev. 20:12-13
10. No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. NASB -John 3:13
11. For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand. Berean Standard Bible -Acts 2:34
12. ...The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day. -John 12:48 Holman Christian Standard Bible
13. ...And I will raise them up at the last day. -John 6:44
14. And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days. Daniel 12:13 Peshitta Bible
15. And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and [ *the life breath/spirit KJB ] returns to God who gave it. -Ecc. 12:7 New American Bible

[ **Berean Standard Bible - breath/spirit - Peshitta Holy Bible ]
[ * Berean Standard Bible - spirit/breath - King James Bible ]
[ *New American Bible - the life breath/spirit - King James Bible ]

Some scriptures that seem to support immortality:
1. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. NIV
2. 2nd Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. New King James Version
3. Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” NIV
4. Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” NIV
5. John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
6. John 11:26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” NLT
7. 1 Corinthians 15:12 "Resurrection"
8. Matthew 25:46 "Eternal life"
9. John 3:16 life "Eternal life"
10. Psalm 23:6 "dwell in the house of the Lord forever"
11. John 5:24 "Eternal life"
* Scriptures say few find life Matt. 7:14, Believers get everlasting life John 3:16, Some do not get life John 3:36, Some does not have life 1st John 5:12

Note: Why would the Bible record scriptures that disagree? With a closer look I found some scriptures could be be taken two different ways, for example:
I have noticed that Ecclesiastes 12:7 can be taken in two different ways:
- one way it sounds like your spirit goes back to God, which seems to support immortality.
- another way it sounds like your life breath/spirit returns to the God who gave it. which seems to support soul sleep.

- one way: And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” -Luke 23:43 NKJV
- another way: Accordingly, a fifth-century Curetonian Syriac version renders Jesus’ reply: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.'” --Luke 23:43

Comma placement

In Luke 23:43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Could this also be interpreted as, “I say to you today, you will…” In other words is it more likely that “today” describes when “you will be with me” or when “I say to you”. kai eipen auto, Amen soi...

www.textkit.com

- another way to look at these three scripture: John 11:25 & 26 and Luke 20:38 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” NLT, Maybe they will never die because they will always be in God's memory, and God will resurrect them on judgment day, so in this sense they will be awakened to a new life, so they never really die. And now all the scriptures agree and make sense collectively?

What do you think, do these scriptures make sense to you?

Some may say "the immortal soul is from a spiritual, heavenly perspective" So why does the Bible even include words that supports a different perspective?

"you shall surely die" "For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” "For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other" "he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish" "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing," "let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy"
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death." "And I will raise them up at the last day" "The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day." "And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days

Hello Walter, how are you all? Just checking on you all, and what you are saying, I have not prayed about that.

Love, Walter

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Hello Walter, how are you all? Just checking on you all, and what you are saying, I have not prayed about that.

Love, Walter

Good to hear from you.

Walter

 

[walter]

Good to hear from you.

Walter

Thank you for your kindness and Christian love.

 

[walter]

King David died a long time ago, and is in God's memory and will be resurrected in the future on judgment day on the last day, he did not ascend to heaven. -Mark 12:27, Acts 2:34

Many people think that when we die we automatically live forever in heaven or hell but the scriptures explain these words:

Isaiah 26:19
New Living Translation
But those who die in the LORD will live; their bodies will rise again! Those who sleep in the earth will rise up and sing for joy! For your life-giving light will fall like dew on your people in the place of the dead!

Psalm 37:29
Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
And the righteous ones inherit the Earth and dwell upon it for eternity.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
New International Version
Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

John 6:40
New King James Version
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus says these words:

Matthew 5:5
New International Version
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

 

[walter]

Matthew 27:52
Graves opened, and many of God's people were raised to life.
Contemporary English Version

New King James Version
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Jesus says: Graves opened, and many of God's people were raised to life.

Think about it where does Jesus say many of God's people are coming from?
"Graves opened"

 

[Aunty Jane]

The wickedness of the Canaanites in Moses' day is a given. It doesn't change the fact that the early Israelites took a bunch of beliefs from them, or that the Bible contains several sections of Canaanite writings.

Why would God allow the Israelites to take a bunch of beliefs from the very ones he told them not to imitate. (Deut 18:9-12)
What Canaanite writings are in the Bible....? Please specify...

What's the point you're driving at?

The point was why the Canaanites were so wicked....Canaan was cursed by Noah for something serious, which is not disclosed, and his father Ham had something to do with it. Whatever it was, was a foregleam of what was to come in the nation that descended from him.

They also defeated two Amorite tribes and the Midianites BEFORE crossing Jordan. The Israelites function

God always defended faithful Israel against its enemies.
Syrian, Moabite, and Philistine rulers successively gained temporary domination over the Israelites, but it was not until the time of Jabin, called “the king of Canaan,” that the Canaanites regained sufficient power to accomplish a 20-year subjugation of Israel. (Judges 4:2-3)
After Jabin’s ultimate defeat by Barak, Israel’s difficulties during the pre-kingdom period came principally from non-Canaanite sources, the Midianites, Ammonites, and Philistines. Likewise during the time of Samuel, of the Canaanite tribes only the Amorites are briefly mentioned. (1Sam 7:14)

Nearly as I can tell, the Bible teaches a special resurrection for martyrs, and a general resurrection for everyon

Not all who died were martyrs. The Bible itself is basically silent on the deaths of the apostles. Martyrdom is rewarded, but proving “faithful to death” (however that occurred) was the requirement. This puts the OSAS camp out of business because they assume that they don’t have to prove anything once they are “saved”.
“It’s not over till the fat lady sings”. (Matt 24:13)

It is the “chosen ones” (“saints/elect) that are promised a resurrection in the same manner as Jesus was resurrected in a spirit body...immortal....being “baptized into his death”, they receive a heavenly assignment as “kings and priests” (Rev 20:6) These are resurrected “first”, before the general resurrection of the dead mentioned by Jesus, takes place after “the end” of this present corrupt world system ruled by the devil. (John 5:28-29; 1 John 5:19) Jesus instructed his disciples to give due warning. (Matt 24:14)

After the general resurrection is The Judgment, and those found lacking seem to be incinerated.

The judgment at the end of this present world system, will see Jesus dispatching the “goats” and rewarding the “sheep”....judged on whether they heeded the warning sounded “in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations”....or like the people in Noah’s day, ignored it.

The vast majority of mankind have been deceived by the devil with various forms of false worship, but none so successful as his divided rabble that masquerades as “Christianity”. This means that the majority of mankind will not escape the judgment that comes with Christ’s manifestation....just like the days of Noah. (Matt 24:37-39)

Once the “goats” are no longer in the world, Jesus can get on with the business of ruling the earth with a righteous “government” that was foretold since ancient times (Isa 9:6)....God’s Kingdom will usher in a 1000 years of peace, during which the general resurrection of the dead will take place.
At the end of the 1000 years, one final test will reveal who are “saved” (granted everlasting life) and who are not...(Rev 20:1-3)

Passing that test will give everlasting life back to the human race, as it was meant to be in the beginning.
A wonderful life in paradise conditions on earth will then be a reality, as it should have been in the beginning.

Here, though, we seem to be speaking more about the time after death and before the general resurrection, which is murky territory.

Murky indeed....people are still convinced of the devil’s first lie...”you surely will not die”.
It’s an appealing thought, but it’s a cruel deception with a sting in the tail. If you’ve been ‘naughty’ but not ‘nice’, there awaits a literal “lake of fire” that will torture you forever....not a nice thought if that was one of your own.

The reverse side of that is those in heaven being able to see all that we do down here, so watching us make mistakes that sometimes lead to death or worse, someone being disabled in some way for life, and not being able to prevent that from happening, could hardly be a reason for joy.

The Bible’s account, as it is from Genesis to Revelation, is one story with details provided on how and why things went wrong......how God provided a solution to the problem.....and it is successfully completed in a return to God’s first purpose for this earth, and mankind upon it. (Isa 55:11)

It all makes logical sense. Satan has really messed up the story, and has people diving down rabbit holes that do not even exist. Confusion reigns, just as he likes it....the master of deception.

We don’t have to be a victim.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Recent NDE experiences indicate a separation between body and soul.
Patients undergoing life-saving resuscitation procedures witnessed the event from outside their body.
Looking down on the scene, they witnessed what happened and reported it to doctors.

You still have your blinkers on StS....we have discussed this before....there are no ADE’s.....an NDE is a “near death experience”, not an “after death experience”.
The person is still alive.....even if the heart and breathing has stopped, oxygen in the cells remain until brain death occurs....only then can a person be revived.

Those NDE’s are easily manipulated by the demons, who also can masquerade as dead loved ones....convincing them because of knowing things that only that person would know......the demons know everything about everyone.

All forms of spiritism were forbidden in the Bible (Deut 18:9-12) and for one specific reason.....it was a link to the demons...not to God. Who wants us to believe the devil’s lie? Who will promote it by means of unexplainable phenomena? The Bible warns us about spiritism.....it’s not spiritual...it’s downright spooky.

Even angels, when they had messages to deliver to God’s earthly servants, manifested as human beings. God did not allow his servants to communicate with spirits in spirit form, because it was a safeguard against demonic trickery.

Even Jesus, after his resurrection “in the spirit” manifested in human form, but not in the body that he sacrificed. On only two occasions did he materialise in a body with the marks of his execution, to convince the doubters. At other times there was no indication of any signs of his torture, inflicted prior to his death, which would have been obvious. Not only that, but would God raise his son and not heal him of his afflictions? Analyse the situation and come to the right conclusions.

When the cells are deprived of oxygen, hallucinogenic chemicals flood the brain and guess who can make sure that those people have an experience that they can tell others and promote his lies?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Matthew 27:52
Graves opened, and many of God's people were raised to life.
Contemporary English Version

New King James Version
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Jesus says: Graves opened, and many of God's people were raised to life.

Think about it where does Jesus say many of God's people are coming from?
"Graves opened"

A very strange event considering that it occurred when Jesus died.....the curtain in the sanctuary was torn in two and the earthquake was so strong that it convinced the Roman soldiers that they had executed God’s son. (Matt 27:54)

It was strong enough to tip bodies out of their graves, which has happened in other countries.
It was their “bodies” that were tipped out of their tombs.

“And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.” (Matt 27:50-53 ESV)

The phrasing in Greek is confusing because it doesn’t say that the bodies came to life, but more likely that the rocks were split and revealed the bodies that had been tipped out of their graves.....the event was so striking that those who witnessed it went to Jerusalem after Jesus resurrection, to report it.

The timing is all wrong if this was a resurrection of the saints, because Jesus was to be the “firstborn from the dead”...which means that the saints were raised before he was...three days later.
It also doesn’t explain what happened to those saints if they were resurrected then in their physical bodies, when Jesus promised them a spiritual resurrection, the same way he would be raised.....in an immortal spirit body that could dwell in the presence of God in the heavenly realm.

No other gospel account relates this event, which, if it was something as important as the raising of the saints, it would have been reported in all of them.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Recent NDE experiences indicate a separation between body and soul.
Patients undergoing life-saving resuscitation procedures witnessed the event from outside their body.
Looking down on the scene, they witnessed what happened and reported it to doctors.

You still have your blinkers on StS....we have discussed this before....there are no ADE’s.....an NDE is a “near death experience”, not an “after death experience”.
The person is still alive.....even if the heart and breathing has stopped, oxygen in the cells remain until brain death occurs....only then can a person be revived.

That doesn't negate the fact that their soul was separated from their physical body.
Their five senses were active while they looked down on their physical body.
They were having a fully conscious experience while their physical body was unconscious.

[

 

[walter]

John 5:28-29
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
New International Version

 

[Aunty Jane]

St. SteVen said:
Recent NDE experiences indicate a separation between body and soul.

Apparently...but how do you know that what these people experienced was not a demonic delusion?
Do people under a delusion know that they are? It’s not like an hallucination....a delusion is an altered slate of reality in the mind. It presents as reality.

Patients undergoing life-saving resuscitation procedures witnessed the event from outside their body.
Looking down on the scene, they witnessed what happened and reported it to doctors.

And who else witnessed the whole procedure?
When Paul was having his visions, he did not know if he was “in the body” or “out of the body” because they were so real. (2 Cor 12:1-4)
The transfiguration was also a vision so real that all three apostles experienced it. Jesus told them to “tell the vision to no one” until he was raised from the dead. (Matt 17:9)

Anything supernatural has to come from a supernatural source....the Bible tells us about both sources, and warns us about how deceptive the devil is....but also how, if people choose to believe a “strong delusion” he will let them believe whatever they choose. (2 Thess 2:9-12) It demonstrates no love for the truth, but a preference for accepting the delusion they find appealing . Why do people prefer to believe that we don’t really die?
The answer is obvious.....we are programmed to live forever, so the thought of not being in existence is foreign to us once we are here as a conscious adult being. But where were we before our parents conceived us? We go back there for a “sleep”, confident that we will awaken in God’s due time, in a better world....not heaven for the majority. That was the Jewish belief but somehow it got all messed up when the Greek adoption of an immortal soul sounded better to those who didn’t like the idea of “sleeping” in death.

That doesn't negate the fact that their soul was separated from their physical body.
Their five senses were active while they looked down on their physical body.
They were having a fully conscious experience while their physical body was unconscious.

Apparently......and as with all the deceptions that the devil presents...his lies are attractive bait, designed to play on the innate senses in us that desire to go on living......false religion just got very creative about the destinations.

Where is it that our innate desires want to live? Isn’t it “paradise”, however we imagine paradise to be?
Doesn’t the tourism industry thrive on that desire in us, exploiting it to the max so that even a short vacation in those beautiful surroundings, makes us discontent with the mundane lives we live in satan’s world of slavery masquerading as freedom?

It’s a cruel insight into what we lost and he laughs at his success with ignorant humans whose emotions dictate more than their logic or knowledge. Any wonder that he has “the whole world” under his control. (1 John 5:19)
It’s called “perception management” and today’s religion, commerce and politics count on it to lead the masses in the direction that the devil wants them to go......it is the informed “few” who are not swayed by it. (Matt 7:13-14) Whose views have we adopted and accepted?

 

[St. SteVen]

Apparently...but how do you know that what these people experienced was not a demonic delusion?
Do people under a delusion know that they are? It’s not like an hallucination....a delusion is an altered slate of reality in the mind. It presents as reality.

To what end?
It's not really a delusion if reality is being experienced.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
That doesn't negate the fact that their soul was separated from their physical body.
Their five senses were active while they looked down on their physical body.
They were having a fully conscious experience while their physical body was unconscious.

Apparently......and as with all the deceptions that the devil presents...his lies are attractive bait, designed to play on the innate senses in us that desire to go on living......false religion just got very creative about the destinations.

Two biblical positions have been presented here.
Why are you so insistent not to accept that both views are biblical?
Just because a view doesn't agree with your favorite doesn't make it a demonic delusion.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

Why would God allow the Israelites to take a bunch of beliefs from the very ones he told them not to imitate. (Deut 18:9-12)
What Canaanite writings are in the Bible....? Please specify...

Like I said before... At some point the Canaanites turned to worshiping the Baals, but before that their practice of religion was centered on Elohim (God) as their chief deity. The Israelites worship is very similar, in no small part because they copied from the Canaanites.

Canaanite writings in the Bible include most of the book of Job, Genesis 1, and the story of Noah. A number of the Psalms are also heavily influenced by Canaanite writings, though not written by Canaanites.

The point was why the Canaanites were so wicked....Canaan was cursed by Noah for something serious, which is not disclosed, and his father Ham had something to do with it. Whatever it was, was a foregleam of what was to come in the nation that descended from him.

The Bible tells us. It says that Ham "uncovered the nakedness of his father." The phrase is a little obtuse... there is minor disagreement on what it means.

God always defended faithful Israel against its enemies.

"Faithful Israel" is a rarity. Most often, Israel was unfaithful, and God sent them judgment in the form of their enemies.

Syrian, Moabite, and Philistine rulers successively gained temporary domination over the Israelites, but it was not until the time of Jabin, called “the king of Canaan,” that the Canaanites regained sufficient power to accomplish a 20-year subjugation of Israel. (Judges 4:2-3)
After Jabin’s ultimate defeat by Barak, Israel’s difficulties during the pre-kingdom period came principally from non-Canaanite sources, the Midianites, Ammonites, and Philistines. Likewise during the time of Samuel, of the Canaanite tribes only the Amorites are briefly mentioned. (1Sam 7:14)

"Canaanites" is open to some interpretation. Technically, it's all descendants of Canaan, which includes other groups that are often listed alongside them, like the Amorites and Jebusites. Often it's the league of cities led by Tyre or Sidon in the north of Israel. But most of all, it should be considered in opposition to Mitzraim.

Not all who died were martyrs. The Bible itself is basically silent on the deaths of the apostles. Martyrdom is rewarded, but proving “faithful to death” (however that occurred) was the requirement. This puts the OSAS camp out of business because they assume that they don’t have to prove anything once they are “saved”.
“It’s not over till the fat lady sings”. (Matt 24:13)

I view OSAS as flawed, because it views salvation as something fully accomplished at conversion, which is false. Regeneration is the beginning of salvation; not the end.

The judgment at the end of this present world system, will see Jesus dispatching the “goats” and rewarding the “sheep”....judged on whether they heeded the warning sounded “in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations”....or like the people in Noah’s day, ignored it.

My interpretation is more specific. Sheep are Israel - including the adopted. The goats are Edom. They were always false Israelites - pious but false.

The vast majority of mankind have been deceived by the devil with various forms of false worship, but none so successful as his divided rabble that masquerades as “Christianity”. This means that the majority of mankind will not escape the judgment that comes with Christ’s manifestation....just like the days of Noah. (Matt 24:37-39)

Aye - the modern churches have more of Edom in them than Israel. They like to be seen for their piety. They rely on their adherence to the rules. They love to think of themselves as better than other people because of their law-keeping.

Murky indeed....people are still convinced of the devil’s first lie...”you surely will not die”.
It’s an appealing thought, but it’s a cruel deception with a sting in the tail. If you’ve been ‘naughty’ but not ‘nice’, there awaits a literal “lake of fire” that will torture you forever....not a nice thought if that was one of your own.

I believe in Annihilation, but not dogmatically so. Where Scripture is murky, I think there's room for multiple theories to exist side-by-side, without condemning each other.

The reverse side of that is those in heaven being able to see all that we do down here, so watching us make mistakes that sometimes lead to death or worse, someone being disabled in some way for life, and not being able to prevent that from happening, could hardly be a reason for joy.

The Bible’s account, as it is from Genesis to Revelation, is one story with details provided on how and why things went wrong......how God provided a solution to the problem.....and it is successfully completed in a return to God’s first purpose for this earth, and mankind upon it. (Isa 55:11)

It all makes logical sense. Satan has really messed up the story, and has people diving down rabbit holes that do not even exist. Confusion reigns, just as he likes it....the master of deception.

We don’t have to be a victim.

Confusion is a rest stop on the way to understanding.