Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture

[GodsGrace]

So you agree that this is the moment of resurrection, right?

So forget about the angel meeting with Jesus Christ, and then do you find
raptrue is fake.

I just don't see rapture in the bible.
The book of Revelation is not really meant to be used to create doctrine.
It is written in different literary forms, and although it does teach doctrine, it also is writing in a prophetic manner.
In fact, some think the rapture will be immediately at the tribulation...
some think it'll be 3 1/2 years into the tribulation.
Why?
Because it is not clear on this and there is much debate.

The moment of resurrection is at the end of the world.
When we die our body goes into the ground.
Our soul and spirit go to be with God because man is immortal - the soul and spirit do not die.

At the resurrection, at the end of the world, our body is resurrected and joined again with our soul and spirit.
This will be our glorified body.

Of this all Christians can agree and there is no debate.

Those that believe in soul sleep are the Jehovah Witnesses and the Later Day Saints.
They are not considered to be Christian by Christiandom.

 

[JLB]

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

The rapture and resurrection occur at the coming of the Lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• The coming of the Lord is the second coming of Christ.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

• The resurrection of the dead in Christ happens first.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


The resurrection and rapture are one event where the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain are caught up together, at His coming.

This is where the entire body of Christ is GATHERED TOGETHER.


The third main thing that happens at His coming is the antichrist and the wicked are destroyed.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8



Also it’s a good thing to note that the Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for Christians.


But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:4

 

[GodsGrace]

The rapture and resurrection occur at the coming of the Lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• The coming of the Lord is the second coming of Christ.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

• The resurrection of the dead in Christ happens first.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


The resurrection and rapture are one event where the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain are caught up together, at His coming.

This is where the entire body of Christ is GATHERED TOGETHER.


The third main thing that happens at His coming is the antichrist and the wicked are destroyed.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8



Also it’s a good thing to note that the Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for Christians.


But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:4

Great explanation JLB!

I hope @soberxp sees this.
He's trying to find out about the rapture as it's understood by some to be a separate event.
I agree wholeheartedly with your explanation above.

 

[soberxp]

Great explanation JLB!

I hope @soberxp sees this.
He's trying to find out about the rapture as it's understood by some to be a separate event.
I agree wholeheartedly with your explanation above.

........................................................................................
If I said I got the answer from the teacher before the exam, would you say I cheated?

I agree with him, except the rapture.

 

[GodsGrace]

........................................................................................
If I said I got the answer from the teacher before the exam, would you say I cheated?

I agree with him, except the rapture.

You're supposed to get the answer from the teacher!

What do you mean by the RAPTURE?

 

[Cross8527]

Cross....you know me...I always go back to the beginning.
Theologians always existed....it's not like someone woke up one morning and discovered some new verses that no one had ever noticed before. The rapture is a new teaching. I hope you read my two posts above about this.
Nos 47 and 48.

So where in scripture does it state that there will be a rapture?

• 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17:
  This is often considered the primary text on the rapture, describing that the dead in Christ will rise first, and then living believers will be "caught up" together with them to meet the Lord in the air.
  
  
• 1 Corinthians 15:51-52:
  This passage speaks of a "mystery" where believers will not all die but will be changed in a moment, at the last trumpet, with the dead being raised and the living transformed.
  
  
• Matthew 24:40-41:
  Jesus uses the analogy of the days of Noah to describe how people will be "taken" and "left," highlighting the sudden nature of these events.
  
  
• Luke 17:34-35:
  This passage from Jesus' teaching describes a similar scenario of people being taken and left.

 

[Cross8527]

The rapture and resurrection occur at the coming of the Lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• The coming of the Lord is the second coming of Christ.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

• The resurrection of the dead in Christ happens first.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


The resurrection and rapture are one event where the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain are caught up together, at His coming.

This is where the entire body of Christ is GATHERED TOGETHER.


The third main thing that happens at His coming is the antichrist and the wicked are destroyed.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8



Also it’s a good thing to note that the Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for Christians.


But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:4

Yes I agree it seems to be the same event but some try to make it seem like two seperate events the thing is if they were then Jesus would be coming a total of three times the first being his first coming the second being the harpazo and the third when he comes to judge the whole earth but this doesn't fit right to me

 

[GodsGrace]

• 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17:
  This is often considered the primary text on the rapture, describing that the dead in Christ will rise first, and then living believers will be "caught up" together with them to meet the Lord in the air.
  
  
• 1 Corinthians 15:51-52:
  This passage speaks of a "mystery" where believers will not all die but will be changed in a moment, at the last trumpet, with the dead being raised and the living transformed.
  
  
• Matthew 24:40-41:
  Jesus uses the analogy of the days of Noah to describe how people will be "taken" and "left," highlighting the sudden nature of these events.
  
  
• Luke 17:34-35:
  This passage from Jesus' teaching describes a similar scenario of people being taken and left.

I just read your post no. 67.....you've got it right.
Also, @JLB is very knowledgeable and has explained perfectly the resurrection.
The word rapture has come to mean something that is not in the bible.

But to get to your verses:

1 Thess 4:13-17
This is referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus at the end of the world.
The dead will be given their glorified bodies and then those that are still living will receive the same.
They will all be caught up together to meet the Lord.
IOW...those that are still living will not ever experience death....
they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.


1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We will not all sleep means that when Jesus comes at the end...not all will be dead - some will still be alive...and they will be changed in immediately into their glorified bodies.

Matthew 24:40-41
self-explanatory


Luke 17:34-35
34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
36 [ "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]
37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."


This is an interesting verse. Quite a few years ago I read about what some theologians glean from this.
It would be referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD which Jesus DID speak of.
Those times can truly be called a time of tribulation.
PERHAPS some persons were being gathered up by the authorities....
one would be taken away, and one would be left in the home.
One would be taken from the field while working...and others left.

I doubt anyone really knows what Jesus meant by this....
but one verse should not create a doctrine which never even existed before.

I think you're on the right track.

 

[JLB]

Yes I agree it seems to be the same event but some try to make it seem like two seperate events the thing is if they were then Jesus would be coming a total of three times the first being his first coming the second being the harpazo and the third when he comes to judge the whole earth but this doesn't fit right to me

Amen.

His coming is also His appearing.

And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 1 John 2:28


He will only come a second time.


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

 

[Cross8527]

I just read your post no. 67.....you've got it right.
Also, @JLB is very knowledgeable and has explained perfectly the resurrection.
The word rapture has come to mean something that is not in the bible.

But to get to your verses:

1 Thess 4:13-17
This is referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus at the end of the world.
The dead will be given their glorified bodies and then those that are still living will receive the same.
They will all be caught up together to meet the Lord.
IOW...those that are still living will not ever experience death....
they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.


1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We will not all sleep means that when Jesus comes at the end...not all will be dead - some will still be alive...and they will be changed in immediately into their glorified bodies.

Matthew 24:40-41
self-explanatory


Luke 17:34-35
34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
36 [ "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]
37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."


This is an interesting verse. Quite a few years ago I read about what some theologians glean from this.
It would be referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD which Jesus DID speak of.
Those times can truly be called a time of tribulation.
PERHAPS some persons were being gathered up by the authorities....
one would be taken away, and one would be left in the home.
One would be taken from the field while working...and others left.

I doubt anyone really knows what Jesus meant by this....
but one verse should not create a doctrine which never even existed before.

I think you're on the right track.

I think you are spot on here and I am still learning in this area of this topic but I am one who goes by the spirits leading not by what I think I believe and understand so I am glad you think I am on the right track

 

[soberxp]

Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

2-Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

John 11:25-26. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

The resurrection happens after we die.

 

[soberxp]

You're supposed to get the answer from the teacher!

What do you mean by the RAPTURE?

Whatever rapture doctrine....paint the lily.

 

[Bladerunner]

Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

2-Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

John 11:25-26. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

The resurrection happens after we die.

"The resurrection happens after we die." only if you die before it gets here..in which case if you are a true believer, an elect of GOD, you will not die but be caught up in the air where Jesus is.

 

[soberxp]

"The resurrection happens after we die." only if you die before it gets here..in which case if you are a true believer, an elect of GOD, you will not die but be caught up in the air where Jesus is.

If you believe that Jesus is coming in your life, you don't have to go through death and resurrection to life and see Jesus.

Or do you think Jesus won't come in your life? You need to go through death and resurrection to life to meet Jesus.

Which is reasonable?

You choose.

He has already come, I am still here on earth.
So am I not true believer.

 

[Scott Downey]

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

Mark 13 tells you the rapture is after the tribulation.
Christ second coming means our salvation and the wicked world's destruction as Hebrews 9:28 says
Christ's second coming ends the tribulation period which comes the church, and the tribulation is even today, just not as extreme as it can be.


21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the [g]elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that [i]it is near—at the doors! 30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour​

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!”

*********************************

Another example of post tribulation rapture. Rapture is simply a word that speaks of us being gathered to Christ, both living and departed saints of God.

2 Thessalonians 1

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Mark 13 tells you the rapture is after the tribulation.
Christ second coming means our salvation and the wicked world's destruction as Hebrews 9:28 says
Christ's second coming ends the tribulation period which comes the church, and the tribulation is even today, just not as extreme as it can be.


21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the [g]elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that [i]it is near—at the doors! 30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour​

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!”

*********************************

Another example of post tribulation rapture. Rapture is simply a word that speaks of us being gathered to Christ, both living and departed saints of God.

As @JLB has stated, and with which I agree, the rapture and the resurrection are one event and happen simultaneously.
I do believe you agree with this.

We have a language problem because some have taken the word RAPTURE to mean a removal of all believers from the earth before the tribulation period.

When, in fact, it means what you and JLB have stated.

2 Thessalonians 1

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Whatever rapture doctrine....paint the lily.

Pain the lily?
Is this a chinese expression?

 

[soberxp]

Pain the lily?
Is this a chinese expression

It's like drawing a snake and then adding legs to it.
Pain the lily is not chinese expression.the one above is.

 

[Bladerunner]

If you believe that Jesus is coming in your life, you don't have to go through death and resurrection to life and see Jesus.

Or do you think Jesus won't come in your life? You need to go through death and resurrection to life to meet Jesus.

From the time of Paul, all the generations have looked forward to the rapture as happening before they die.(the Great Hope)..and Yes, it could come before my death since I am of the last generation which began around 1947 or so. Since a generation is 20 years, 1967 would fulfill that twenty years. That would make those at that time 58...Where I am 74 it is likely I will not see the Rapture simply because my number is very short. At that time it, the rapture will not matter for I will be with Jesus after I die..Yet, the Rapture is an event that will happen and I believe during this time period. Keep in mind after the Rapture, the anti-christ must come to enough power to rule the world in order to enforce the covenant the Jews made with Death and Hell (Isa 28:14-22). There could be a pattern of 38-40 years before Daniel's 70th week would start. (the 38-40 years in the wilderness is a pattern that has not yet been repeated.

Which is reasonable?

You choose.

He has already come, I am still here on earth.
So am I not true believer.

If you are still on earth when the Rapture Event happens, there will be no true believers on earth immediately after this event. There will be "elect" of God who will have to loose their heads for Jesus Christ. Known as the tribulation saints, they are a martyred group of Saints who are held under the altar in Rev 6:9-11. They have to make a choice in the mark of the beast or loosing their heads.

 

[Wick Stick]

The mind, brain, is a body part.
The mind knows not all things.
The mind can knowingly deceive, lie.
The mind change positions.
The mind can logically conclude beliefs.
The body’s life is Blood.

The soul, is (a record keeping spiritual thing, for lack of better explanation, regarding a spiritual thing that belongs to God)
Science may use the term “sub-conscience” to describe the purpose / effect of the soul.
It belongs to God.
It is given a mans born body, by God.
It has memory of all things of the minds thoughts and the body’s physical feelings.
It’s life is Gods breath
It departs a dying / dead body.
It continues to live as long as Gods breath remains in the soul.
It is the soul that may or may not ultimately be saved (restored).

The natural spirit of man is what the man truly believes in his heart (regardless of what his mind, thinks, believes, says)
It is the Heart that receives the “Seed of God”, birthing the man a new spirit (Quickened / born again).

Mankind…three aspects of One man…
Body, soul, spirit…

Glory to God,
Taken

Eh... "soul" is an overloaded word. Not every book of the Bible means the same thing when it uses this word.

E.g. the Psalms use 'soul' as a synonym for 'person.' Other books use it as a synonym for 'spirit.' Paul uses it as an antonym for 'spirit.'

Danggit Paul, why you gotta be so complicated?