GracePeace
Well-Known Member
And I see Ro 14 as parallel with Paul's expectations of the Galatians--it pictures men who began by grace and faith/the Spirit who are becoming perfect by grace and faith (vv5, 23) and not works of the Law.
Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah
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GracePeace
Well-Known Member
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I'd still make the same argument I've been making about Gal 3, Ro 14, but it is a very touchy issue, because the words can be correct, but the way they are taken, the outcome / application, can be incorrect (eg, inspiring fear that easily arises).
Thanks to everyone praying for me.
I'm getting this understanding that after I'm right with God by grace through faith in Christ, there is an expectation that I will be free, and that that involves being motivated forward by hope and joy (even in small matters), and that that is the opposite of being afraid, worrying about my right standing, whether it is "secure", and trying to do "right" things to "make sure" about my standing.
I'd still make the same argument I've been making about Gal 3, Ro 14, but it is a very touchy issue, because the words can be correct, but the way they are taken, the outcome / application, can be incorrect (eg, inspiring fear that easily arises).
Thanks to everyone praying for me.
Let's look at the passages you mention.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
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But the whole chapter and theme of Rom 14 is not to pass judgements on each other.
Rom 14:3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
Rom 14:22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
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Romans 14 reminds me of Jesus words in Matt 13:8
Matt 13:8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
The Lord is full of mercy, He knows our weaknesses and does not expect everybody to produce hundredfold.
In mercy is no contradiction.
Hope this helps.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Irrespectively, the guide outlined in v5 is a universal on how to live before the Lord, and breaking it is sin, which, it says, compromises justification (ie, condemns)--that reality was the difficulty making it difficult to settle in to the peace based on the justification by the righteousness of faith apart from works Ro 5:1. I explained it in a recent reply here in this thread.
There was strive about what to eat and what not because of all the regulations of the Mosaic law. Paul is saying stop.
Rom 14:3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
There is no sin, if you want to keep the food regulations of the Mosaic law, fine, as long it is in faith, same for those who took the opinion of Paul, as long it is in faith.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
We have different takeaways.
Yes, the universal rule for all of life is "each one must be fully convinced in his own mind".
Breaking that rule is "sin", and the one who sins "is condemned" (v23).
The one who is condemned is not justified.
That, together with numerous other verses, created a problem for me accepting Ro 5:1.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Amen. I havent' been able to follow the jist of the whole conversation, but we each are dealt our own measure of faith and grace, as the parable of the talents portrays. Some greater, some lesser. As well, there are different parts/members of the body of Christ, some greater, some lesser etc.
Rom 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Our offering is accepted according to what we have, not what we don't have.
In my observation it seems as though everyone has inherited a different corner of the battlefield, some are harder, some are easier, etc. There are so many variables (known only to the Lord) between everyone as individuals, and God judges righteously/fairly. That's why in many cases, the first will be last and the last first.
religious teachings from institutions that replace a direct connection to God. The teachings of "experts" and scholars who live by speculation.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
proverbs14:15
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.
The foolish believes every word.........
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Well I know for sure Jesus taught repentance.
The gospel I have is built on the cornerstone and foundation of Christ and His righteousness, His Spirit/nature within the child of God, our new man. Christ in us, the hope of glory. A gospel built on one's own righteousness is a very unstable, flimsy and crooked foundation.
And He has also hidden things from those who read the bible to justify themselves. It's ironic that the very ones spoken against in the bible have the most "assurance" of a good outcome for themselves.
I don't doubt that is certainly true of some....but you are wrong to assume that is true of everyone based solely on the fact that they disagree with you on some key points.
But that's just what you are doing. You are building your own righteousness by claiming to have God's own righteousness for YOURSELF...which is far more outrageous than what the Pharisees claimed. They claimed to do what the bible said according to the law...and they justified themselves by doing what was written in the law. This was based on self-love.
Modern Pharisees do far worse than that, even. They read the bible about grace and, just like the Pharisees, they claim to be doing what is written in the bible according to grace (this time instead of the law)...to believe in Jesus. And then these claim to be justified...not just justified as a human...but having the same rightousness as God. And this is based on a supercharged narcissism and self-love...so that even to make a Pharisee blush. God is testing the rich and they are failing since none are able to actually enter into the kingdom.
It's outrageous and foolish on an eternal scale...as many will discover on judgment day.
Why not repent?
Why not awaken from the deep delusion that has twisted the gospel into an easy fix religious scheme? A permanent amnesty from the penalty for sins? For the rich? The rich have come up with this scheme. They see themselves as lacking nothing in their poverty and blindness.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
God still chose The foolish cuz they believe every word..
God didn't chose the wise inventor(A man who invented all kinds of doctrine ), cuz they believe not every word..
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Assume what you wish. We still need to endeavour to apprehend that for which Christ apprehended us. But even Paul didn't consider that he had "attained". Perhaps you fell because the Lord wanted to teach you something about pride and vanity. That was Lucifer's downfall and I'm sure it was written so that we would learn from it. It is pride that goeth before a fall.
This is backwards unless you mean that the foolish believe every word FROM God...as opposed to every teaching they get indoctrinated into through the religious system. The "foolish" are wise from God's perspective because they believe the impossible. They swear to their own hurt and see themselves as unworthy of what they are teaching. They are like children in their faith in God. They are fools FOR God.
Not so the religiously affiliated ones. The "wise" are those who throw away real faith to make a much easier gospel scheme that even the rich can tolerate and embrace. The false gospel is very popular since it caters to the flesh. Are you a sinner? No problem! All you have to do is say the magic word "Jesus" . In this scheme the bible becomes a magic book of incantations.
But what doesn't dawn on people is the depth of God's power us-ward who believe.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
In the eyes of God, the fault lies not with the fools who believe every word, but with those who preach falsehoods.
The rich are not necessarily wealthy. Just as the United States is in so much debt, the money of the rich is merely finance and bank loans. Don't just look at the surface; perhaps they are more willing to believe in what Jesus said about forgiveness of debts.
There's no need to blame money for all problems. You can try to be a rich man and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
No on really Knows.
Amen. Sheep are not very clever. Wolves on the other hand are clever and wiley. Jesus knowingly sent us out as sheep among wolves. For the glory of God when we learn to rely on HIM, our good Shepherd.
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