The distain for romance, family, and the demonization of sexualality and women in Christianity

[nedsk]

Be nice nedsk!

Woman SHOULD not be equal in Christianity.
In the CC they certainly aren't.

A woman cannot be a Deacon and certainly not a priest.
And I'm hoping this doesn't change.

A woman can teach children but cannot teach adults - unless in an informal manner in a home....
and some priests require that a certain routine be followed (and some don't).

So what makes you think women are equal ?

What makes you think I wouldn't be nice?

I do admit asinine comments do raise my ire. Saying women arent equal in the Catholic Church borders the line of asinine. They can't function I certain roles that doesn't mean they aren't equal. We are called to be priestly people. The mistake many American Catholic and others make is they think the church should be a democracy. It isn't.

Beyond that Mary is held in high regard so much so that people hate the church for it. There are four female doctors of the church. Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Sienna, Therese of Lisieux and Hildegard of Bingen.

Confusing roles with equality is a modern illness

 

[Grailhunter]

Be nice nedsk!

Woman SHOULD not be equal in Christianity.
In the CC they certainly aren't.

A woman cannot be a Deacon and certainly not a priest.
And I'm hoping this doesn't change.

A woman can teach children but cannot teach adults - unless in an informal manner in a home....
and some priests require that a certain routine be followed (and some don't).

So what makes you think women are equal ?

You and I do not disagree on much but on this we do. The scriptures say there is no difference between men and women in the eyes of the Lord but the concept does not follow through.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

I believe the equal status of women is something Christianity is working on.

God bless
Be good and do good.
The Johnny Appleseed of Truth

 

[GodsGrace]

What makes you think I wouldn't be nice?

I do admit asinine comments do raise my ire. Saying women arent equal in the Catholic Church borders the line of asinine. They can't function I certain roles that doesn't mean they aren't equal. We are called to be priestly people. The mistake many American Catholic and others make is they think the church should be a democracy. It isn't.

Beyond that Mary is held in high regard so much so that people hate the church for it. There are four female doctors of the church. Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Sienna, Therese of Lisieux and Hildegard of Bingen.

Confusing roles with equality is a modern illness

You're always nice nedsk.

"confusing roles with equality is a modern illness".

What does equality mean?

NOUN
BEING EQUAL ESPECIALLY IN STATUS, RIGHTS, OPPORTUNITY.

(from the Oxford Dictionary - I couldn't copy and paste)


So do YOU really think I can consider myself equal in the CC?

 

[GodsGrace]

You and I do not disagree on much but on this we do. The scriptures say there is no difference between men and women in the eyes of the Lord but the concept does not follow through.

In the eyes of the Lord there is no difference.
I'm addressing the differences in the CC.

Also, I believe women should NOT have roles of authority in the church...
I do not believe they should be pastors or priests.

This is correct and follows what Jesus wanted.
He chose MEN to be Apostles...no women.

He treated women with respect but did not send any "out"...He sent the Apostles out to minister and to begin the church.
There are reasons for this.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

Agreed.

I believe the equal status of women is something Christianity is working on.

God bless
Be good and do good.
The Johnny Appleseed of Truth

I pray women are NEVER in authority roles in any church.
There are women pastors in some denominations and some in non-denominational churches.

I don't think I care to get into the reasons.

 

[Grailhunter]

This is correct and follows what Jesus wanted.

I believe it was more of a tradition of the times

 

[nedsk]

You're always nice nedsk.

"confusing roles with equality is a modern illness".

What does equality mean?

NOUN
BEING EQUAL ESPECIALLY IN STATUS, RIGHTS, OPPORTUNITY.

(from the Oxford Dictionary - I couldn't copy and paste)


So do YOU really think I can consider myself equal in the CC?

In status in God's eyes you are no different than me or the pope.. In rights with God you are no different than me or the pope. As to opportunity it's not possible for me to be a priest because I'm married. Am I less than a priest in God's eyes?

So therein lies the problem. Whether or not you consider yourself equal in the CC has little to do with the church. You don't consider yourself equal because you can't be a priest or a deacon. How you feel isn't the churches responsibility. A foot is not a hand but JP II wrote a lot about the complimentary nature of the different roles in the church. A strong woman who cares for her family and raises her children in the ways of the faith, along with her husband is just as important and any deacon, priest or pope. That role has been decimated by modern feminism as meaningless. It's sick

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe it was more of a tradition of the times

Actually, as I'm sure you know...women were treated better in the time of Moses than in the time of Jesus.

It was certainly a tradition...but Jesus changed the traditions He didn't like.
Like doing some work on the Sabbath, for instance - to quell hunger, or to help someone or an animal in need.

Jesus understood human nature.
I believe this is the reason why He chose men for the ministry.

(we can disagree on some things!)

 

[nedsk]

Actually, as I'm sure you know...women were treated better in the time of Moses than in the time of Jesus.

It was certainly a tradition...but Jesus changed the traditions He didn't like.
Like doing some work on the Sabbath, for instance - to quell hunger, or to help someone or an animal in need.

Jesus understood human nature.
I believe this is the reason why He chose men for the ministry.

(we can disagree on some things!)

Why do you think Jesus chose men? What did he know about human nature
that made him choose men? I have my thoughts but would love to hear yours.

 

[GodsGrace]

In status in God's eyes you are no different than me or the pope.. In rights with God you are no different than me or the pope. As to opportunity it's not possible for me to be a priest because I'm married. Am I less than a priest in God's eyes?

So therein lies the problem. Whether or not you consider yourself equal in the CC has little to do with the church. You don't consider yourself equal because you can't be a priest or a deacon. How you feel isn't the churches responsibility. A foot is not a hand but JP II wrote a lot about the complimentary nature of the different roles in the church. A strong woman who cares for her family and raises her children in the ways of the faith, along with her husband is just as important and any deacon, priest or pope. That role has been decimated by modern feminism as meaningless. It's sick

I agree!
But we're all priests in God's eyes.
Even the CC teaches this (I don't remember hearing it in the far past).

Forget about being a priest or not...YOU could have been a priest, I could not.
Which is fine with me.

What about teaching?
Can I teach a room full of men?
Am I allowed to TAKE CHARGE of a meeting if a priest is present?
The reply is no...and you know the reply is no.

This means that in some way, I am not equal.
Which is fine with me.

Maybe we could embrace the differences instead of trying to say that we're all the same...
all equal.

We are not all the same,
and we are not all equal.

I'm not arguing against it...
I'M AGREEING TO IT.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you think Jesus chose men? What did he know about human nature
that made him choose men? I have my thoughts but would love to hear yours.

Jesus chose men because human nature does not changed...
how it was 4 thousand years ago is still today and forever will be until the end.

Men are stronger....it was right that men go out into the world to preach and teach.
Women are weaker...they get tired faster, they have less strength in every way.
They face more danger by the simple fact that they are women.
I worried more about my daughter when she went into the world (than my son).
She was naturally more vulnerable and more of a target.

Men are less emotional. They take facts at face value...the complain less and they argue less.
They're more honest and less malicious.

Men were better for the task at hand.

Now that I have all the ladies mad at me...
what say you?

 

[nedsk]

I agree!
But we're all priests in God's eyes.
Even the CC teaches this (I don't remember hearing it in the far past).

Forget about being a priest or not...YOU could have been a priest, I could not.
Which is fine with me.

What about teaching?
Can I teach a room full of men?
Am I allowed to TAKE CHARGE of a meeting if a priest is present?
The reply is no...and you know the reply is no.

This means that in some way, I am not equal.
Which is fine with me.

Maybe we could embrace the differences instead of trying to say that we're all the same...
all equal.

We are not all the same,
and we are not all equal.

I'm not arguing against it...
I'M AGREEING TO IT.

We are all called to be priestly people.

What I could have been doesn't make you less equal. There's no connection between the two.

My wife has taught a room full of men.

Forget the presence of a priest, are you allowed to TAKE CHARGE of any meeting you don't have legitimate authority to take charge of?????? It's seems like your just flailing now.

I know but I have had discussions with women who hate the church for the reasons you are raising and it's ridiculous

 

[nedsk]

Jesus chose men because human nature does not changed...
how it was 4 thousand years ago is still today and forever will be until the end.

Men are stronger....it was right that men go out into the world to preach and teach.
Women are weaker...they get tired faster, they have less strength in every way.
They face more danger by the simple fact that they are women.
I worried more about my daughter when she went into the world (than my son).
She was naturally more vulnerable and more of a target.

Men are less emotional. They take facts at face value...the complain less and they argue less.
They're more honest and less malicious.

Men were better for the task at hand.

Now that I have all the ladies mad at me...
what say you?

I agree with that but I think he chose men for a slightly different reason. Because all those things are true about men we also struggle more with surrendering but we all need to surrender to the will of God and to the the church that he left us. That's tough especially with the churches teaching on sex being only within the bonds of marriage. Other things as well but that's a huge one. To love your wife not just her body. To surrender our desires to one woman to the church to my family. Toughest thing in the world for a man to do.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are all called to be priestly people.

What I could have been doesn't make you less equal. There's no connection between the two.

My wife has taught a room full of men.

The forget the presence of a priest, are you allowed to TAKE CHARGE of any meeting you don't have legitimate authority to take charge of?????? It's seems like your just flailing now.

I know but I have had discussions with women who have the church for the reasons you are raising and it's ridiculous

I think you mistyped your last sentence.
You mean some women left the church because they felt unequal?

Well, that's modern women for ya!

You know, we can't have it both ways.
Men want women to have a specific role and the're right to want this.

But then they also want women to be equal.
Maybe we should look at that definition of equal again.

Can a woman be a fireman?
Can she carry a full grown man out of a bldg?

What men has your wife taught?
It's rather odd.
Were there any priests in the audience?
Isn't the man supposed to be the head as Jesus is the head of the church?
Are we dispensing with this idea now?

You say the church is not a democracy...
are we moving away from this idea?

I think this will be all I'll say.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with that but I think he chose men for a slightly different reason. Because all those things are true about men we also struggle more with surrendering but we all need to surrender to the will of God and to the the church that he left us. That's tough especially with the churches teaching on sex being only within the bonds of marriage. Other things as well but that's a huge one. To love your wife not just her body. To surrender our desires to one woman to the church to my family. Toughest thing in the world for a man to do.

Agreed.
Women give up a lot too...but it's tougher on a man.
Some understand this and some women don't -
those that do appreciate a husband all the more.

Could you add to why Jesus chose men?
I don't think the above addresses this...
If it's tough for a man to surrender to a church...
why didn't Jesus pick women?

 

[marks]

What are your thoughts?

Hard to read the oversized font . . .

 

[Grailhunter]

Actually, as I'm sure you know...women were treated better in the time of Moses than in the time of Jesus.

Some of the Mosaic Laws carried over to Christianity....
In the Mosaic Law women were property.
Wives were bought.
Women are saved by child birthing.
Fathers sold daughters as sex slave....concubinage.
Then there is polygamy and concubinage the scriptures never put a stop to them and that carried on with the Jewish-Christians.
Mosaic Law allowed for a raped woman to be killed.
If a woman did not bleed upon her first penetration her husband could kill her and leave her body at her father's doorstep
Captive women that were not virgins were killed.
Women to be silent in church.
ETC

It was certainly a tradition...but Jesus changed the traditions He didn't like.

I do not think that Yeshua liked polygamy or concubinage or slavery or the second rate status of women it just was not the time to address them. Christianity has been taught many things since the biblical era.

 

[nedsk]

Agreed.
Women give up a lot too...but it's tougher on a man.
Some understand this and some women don't -
those that do appreciate a husband all the more.

Could you add to why Jesus chose men?
I don't think the above addresses this...
If it's tough for a man to surrender to a church...
why didn't Jesus pick women?

First I don't think giving up is the same as surrendering. Yes women and men give up a lot but surrender is a choice to turn control to someone or something else. I think that's tougher for men. To get men to surrender to the church brought with it the other attributes men possess they moved the church forward. Even today in every parish I've been a part of when the dad of the family is present at church and practices the faith at home the family's faith was stronger. Not that moms can't or arent able to do it but it's much more rare

 

[GodsGrace]

Some of the Mosaic Laws carried over to Christianity....
In the Mosaic Law women were property.
Wives were bought.
Women are saved by child birthing.
Fathers sold daughters as sex slave....concubinage.
Then there is polygamy and concubinage the scriptures never put a stop to them and that carried on with the Jewish-Christians.
Mosaic Law allowed for a raped woman to be killed.
If a woman did not bleed upon her first penetration her husband could kill her and leave her body at her father's doorstep
Captive women that were not virgins were killed.
Women to be silent in church.
ETC


I do not think that Yeshua liked polygamy or concubinage or slavery or the second rate status of women it just was not the time to address them. Christianity has been taught many things since the biblical era.

I don't think we're addressing the same topic.

 

[GodsGrace]

First I don't think giving up is the same as surrendering. Yes women and men give up a lot but surrender is a choice to turn control to someone or something else. I think that's tougher for men. To get men to surrender to the church brought with it the other attributes men possess they moved the church forward. Even today in every parish I've been a part of when the dad of the family is present at church and practices the faith at home the family's faith was stronger. Not that moms can't or arent able to do it but it's much more rare

I agree.
Also to surrender and to give up are different and I used the term give up specifically.
I don't know if you want to continue with this topic...

It started out referring specifically to church matters.

 

[nedsk]

I agree.
Also to surrender and to give up are different and I used the term give up specifically.
I don't know if you want to continue with this topic...

It started out referring specifically to church matters.

I suspected you used it specifically but I felt I wanted to clarify what I meant.

We can if you like but if not it's ok. I really enjoy engaging with you. I have been on a lot of these sites and I must say you are at the top of the list of those I most like talking to. You speak with candor and it makes the discussions worthwhile AND enjoyable. You also remind me to be nice. I need that

As to church matters we can get back to that because I think you're all wet on those points lol