What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?

[Skovand]

I never said otherwise. Please don’t present strawman arguments.

This is what I questioned.
They have a “hive mind”, not individuality.

Personalities as individuals? No…

They have ‘group personalities’, which are apparently shaped by their environment, ie., availability of different foods.



Not all hominid lines are human. And assessing what are hominin lines is a tricky problem.

Such views are distinct supporters of naturalism, let’s face it.

They completely negate the need for any Savior.

You’ve been misled, my friend. Revelation 12:9



Again, all of this is off-topic.
I will start a thread about this topic in the appropriate forum, replete with evidence, and tag you.

I know science. And it’s deficits.

Have a good day.

You said…… surely you don’t think ants have intelligence, I said yes animals are intelligent. No words were put in your mouth except your own.

There is no debate within the scientific community that there are multiple species in the human genus homo. Neanderthals for example is not another race, it’s another species in the same genus. Who said all hominids or their lines are human? Hominid simply means the great apes which includes gorillas, chimps and several others. Hominini is simply a clade below that which includes just homo and pan and pan is just closest cousins which are chimps and bonobos.

You say you know science, but the way you use word makes me think you don’t to be honest.

So again, another example of you not knowing what you’re talking about is hive mind versus individual minds. I have a feeling you have a science fiction concept of what hive mind means and not a scientific one. Plenty of hive minds are full of individual personalities, even in those where cloning is super common. Most of this research has been done on bees, but on ants too and they are all closely related as they come from the same
Order Hymenoptera.

Here is just one study on ants.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2016.2237

And yes, in certain what that says, if you’re even read it or are able too, is that ants have individual personalities.





One of the classes I was taking, actually several of the classes I was taking focused on habitat systems, specifically the coevolution of insects and angiosperms have this book at required reading. Used as a reference book. It drives deeply into some of this. Also…… I am from Alabama and I’ve been in discussions with the late EO Wilson…… know who that is? Even met him once by chance at a state park.

 

[St. SteVen]

Did they die in the day they ate thereof? (not physically)

[

 

[Behold]

Did they die in the day they ate thereof? (not physically)

"the body is dead because of sin"........so that it eventually ends up that way for nearly everyone this last 2000 yrs.

That is the other "death" that began for Adam and Eve, just as soon as they diobeyed.

 

[St. SteVen]

Then, as Satan said, they did NOT die- where are they now?

We need to answer the question about what Jesus meant.

Luke 20:38 NIV
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

[

 

[St. SteVen]

"TO HIM", not Trillions of people in Heaven!

Are you familiar with Sheol? (the realm of the dead)

[

 

[Keiw]

Then, as Satan said, they did NOT die- where are they now?

A day is as 1000 years to God--He could have meant that for a day. But they did die spiritually on that day. Either way they died on that day.

 

[St. SteVen]

Died PERIOD!

Goodbye.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I posit that they died spiritually that day.
They were not immortal/eternal beings that became mortal in that day.
On the other hand, we are immortal beings. An afterlife awaits us all.
Many aspects to explore on this.

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, ...
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

[

 

[Behold]

I posit that they died spiritually that day.

They : "died spiritually".

The means that the spiritual union they had with God was broken.

Jesus, who is the 2nd Adam, came to restore us back into the spiritual union with God that Adam lost for us all.

Being born again, before you die, is to be restored back into eternal spiritual union with God.
Jesus said "you MUST be born again".

Why is it a spiritual union.....to become "one with God".......again?

Its becasue "God is A Spirit",. and we are born again into Him, by spiritual birth.

 

[Wick Stick]

I posit that they died spiritually that day.
They were not immortal/eternal beings that became mortal in that day.
On the other hand, we are immortal beings. An afterlife awaits us all.
Many aspects to explore on this.

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, ...
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

[

Most references in the Bible to a metaphorical death come back to the idea that the House of Israel (the northern half of the country) died. They were "killed" by the Assyrians as God's judgment for their apostasy. (Eze 37, et al)

Within that framework, "dead" refers to someone who is cut off from his people.

I don't really think of that as "spiritual," unless by "spiritual" you mean that it's a metaphor and not physical death.

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't really think of that as "spiritual," unless by "spiritual" you mean that it's a metaphor and not physical death.

I mean that it is neither physical nor metaphorical.
I recognize physical life and death, as well as spiritual life and death.
The loss of a relationship with God in the Fall is the basis for spiritual death.
Re-establishing that relationship with God introduces spiritual life.

These scriptures aren't speaking about physical death.

Ephesians 2:4-5 NIV
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 3:5-6 NIV
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter
the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

I mean that it is neither physical nor metaphorical.
I recognize physical life and death, as well as spiritual life and death.
The loss of a relationship with God in the Fall is the basis for spiritual death.
Re-establishing that relationship with God introduces spiritual life.

These scriptures aren't speaking about physical death.

Ephesians 2:4-5 NIV
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 3:5-6 NIV
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter
the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.

[

I have a confession - I don't like the word spiritual.

Everybody in church uses it, but the people don't seem to hold any consensus on what it actually means. It could mean allegorical, or not-physical, or even belonging-to-another-dimension. That last one seems more science fiction than Bible to me.

So I try to avoid jargon and use words that people will understand. If only Paul could have been a little more like me, eh?

I find a metaphorical, allegorical death in my Bible. That sort of death is being cut off from the elect group (which is Abraham's descendants, both natural and adopted). That being so, those who are adopted into the group have a form of resurrection - they are no longer dead in that sense.

I don't find that there are people walking around who have a dead spirit, or lack a spirit. If they were so, they would be corpses. A body without a spirit is dead, and I mean that in the most literal sense.

 

[St. SteVen]

I have a confession - I don't like the word spiritual.

Fair enough.
How should we describe things that happen in the spiritual realm? (outside the physical realm)

I have a confession - I don't like the word gifts. - LOL
I prefer the word manifestations of the Holy Spirit rather than spiritual gifts.
As used in 1 Corinthians 12.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

Fair enough.
How should we describe things that happen in the spiritual realm? (outside the physical realm)

I guess it depends how you understand it, or what you're referring to.

If you mean an alternate dimension, you could say that.
If you mean some sort of space where all our thoughts come together (thinking of Jung's collective unconscious here), you could call it a mindscape, or maybe astral plane (borrowing terms from comic books lol).
If you mean an essence of things (in the Platonic sense), then the best word seems to be pattern.

I have a confession - I don't like the word gifts. - LOL
I prefer the word manifestations of the Holy Spirit rather than spiritual gifts.
As used in 1 Corinthians 12.

[

We need a sub-forum where all jargon is banned. Sticky topic with a list of words banned there.

 

[quietthinker]

We need a sub-forum where all jargon is banned. Sticky topic with a list of words banned there.

haha, you mean, more 'laws' (rules) is gonna fix it?

 

[Muna]

I have a confession - I don't like the word spiritual.

But Paul does tell us,

1 Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Everybody in church uses it, but the people don't seem to hold any consensus on what it actually means. It could mean allegorical, or not-physical, or even belonging-to-another-dimension. That last one seems more science fiction than Bible to me.

So I try to avoid jargon and use words that people will understand. If only Paul could have been a little more like me, eh?

And Paul also said,

1 Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ

So he did seem to speak to certain in ways they could understand in certain places

Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

1 Cr 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

Or as unto carnal or as unto spiritual, or as unto them that are perfect

1 Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

It appears he switched it up a bit

I find a metaphorical, allegorical death in my Bible. That sort of death is being cut off from the elect group (which is Abraham's descendants, both natural and adopted). That being so, those who are adopted into the group have a form of resurrection - they are no longer dead in that sense.

I don't find that there are people walking around who have a dead spirit, or lack a spirit. If they were so, they would be corpses. A body without a spirit is dead, and I mean that in the most literal sense.

It does say that the body itself without the spirit (ones own spirit) is dead,

These would those being buried in Luke 9:60

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead:
but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Whereas those with the ability to bury the dead, might be considered the walking dead

Those without the Spirit of God in them with their own spirit, for example here

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,
that we are the children of God:

So wouldnt you think that the death in both cases (such as the dead doing the burying) and those actually being buried by the other dead are both literally dead, but according to the nature of the death (or the kind of dead it might be refering to) as far the nature of the deadness might differ between them maybe.

Another example, here is another person who is dead (while they physically liveth) here

1 Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth

In that picture she could be as one is dead and could be as those who are dead (and walking around) and able to bury their dead (who cannot walk around and are not living because their body is without their own spirit. But since she is still liveth (or at least her body lives on) she has her own spirit (which sustains it) and would appear spiritually dead, not that her spirit is dead but the nature of the death is not her phyically body (carnally speaking) but not alive to God (so to speak).,

Its not the death of the spirit, its being dead (spiritually so) just as the other is dead (physically or carnally so). One can walk, the other cannot, the one can live on in the body (the other has no spirit to animate the body).

So wouldnt both would be literal, but only the nature of the death (or deadness) would varry between them?

If I even put that right, I stink at my own words

 

[Wick Stick]

But Paul does tell us,

1 Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Sure. Now define "spiritually discerned" for us in common English.

And Paul also said,

1 Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ

So he did seem to speak to certain in ways they could understand in certain places

Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

1 Cr 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

Or as unto carnal or as unto spiritual, or as unto them that are perfect

1 Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

It appears he switched it up a bit

My comment about Paul being "more like me" is a joke. St Steven, Lambano , and myself often make fun of ourselves for our own hubris. That's what's going on here. Now you're privy to the joke.

It does say that the body itself without the spirit (ones own spirit) is dead,

These would those being buried in Luke 9:60

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead:
but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Whereas those with the ability to bury the dead, might be considered the walking dead

Those without the Spirit of God in them with their own spirit, for example here

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,
that we are the children of God:

So wouldnt you think that the death in both cases (such as the dead doing the burying) and those actually being buried by the other dead are both literally dead, but according to the nature of the death (or the kind of dead it might be refering to) as far the nature of the deadness might differ between them maybe.

Regular physical death is a thing. But the Bible also talks about death metaphorically, and where it does, it's talking about being cut off from one's people. It doesn't seem like that hard a concept to me - do you disagree?

Another example, here is another person who is dead (while they physically liveth) here

1 Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth

In that picture she could be as one is dead and could be as those who are dead (and walking around) and able to bury their dead (who cannot walk around and are not living because their body is without their own spirit. But since she is still liveth (or at least her body lives on) she has her own spirit (which sustains it) and would appear spiritually dead, not that her spirit is dead but the nature of the death is not her phyically body (carnally speaking) but not alive to God (so to speak).,

Its not the death of the spirit, its being dead (spiritually so) just as the other is dead (physically or carnally so). One can walk, the other cannot, the one can live on in the body (the other has no spirit to animate the body).

So wouldnt both would be literal, but only the nature of the death (or deadness) would varry between them?

If I even put that right, I stink at my own words

We all stink at words where it comes to 2,000 year old jargon. How do you define the word "spiritually," for 1Ti 5:6? I bet we don't all define it the same for this verse, much less the whole Bible.

 

[Muna]

Sure. Now define "spiritually discerned" for us in common English.

To discern naturally is to see by that, whether its by the eye or by ones understanding.
To perceive and/or recognize.

To discern spiritually is the ability to understand and perceive spiritual things as taught by the Spirit 1 Cr 2:13

Spiritually,

1. spiritually: i.e. by the aid of the Holy Spirit

Discerned

1. examine or judge
   
   1. to investigate, examine, enquire into, scrutinise, sift, question
      
      1. specifically in a forensic sense of a judge to hold an investigation
      2. to interrogate, examine the accused or witnesses
   2. to judge of, estimate, determine (the excellence or defects of any person or thing)

Same word for judgeth all things here

1 Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

My comment about Paul being "more like me" is a joke. St Steven, Lambano , and myself often make fun of ourselves for our own hubris. That's what's going on here. Now you're privy to the joke.

Thanks for bringing me in on it.

Regular physical death is a thing. But the Bible also talks about death metaphorically, and where it does, it's talking about being cut off from one's people. It doesn't seem like that hard a concept to me - do you disagree?

I see this...​

Metaphoric​

adjective​

1. expressing one thing in terms normally denoting another
   metaphoric language

A metaphor is a figure of speech that asserts one thing is another to highlight a similarity, allowing complex spiritual truths to be conveyed in relatable terms.Unlike a simile, which uses "like" or "as," a metaphor directly states that one thing is another

We all stink at words where it comes to 2,000 year old jargon. How do you define the word "spiritually," for 1Ti 5:6? I bet we don't all define it the same for this verse, much less the whole Bible.

I do not see the word "spiritually" written in 1 Ti 5:6 I see that as showing something "spiritually speaking" but not the word in particular

1 Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Unless you are thinking of another verse where the word is

 

[Waiting on him]

I posit that they died spiritually that day. They were not immortal/eternal beings that became mortal in that day.
On the other hand, we are immortal beings. An afterlife awaits us all. Many aspects to explore on this.

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, ...
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

--- ADDENDUM ---


Perhaps this is a back way in to my position that A&E died spiritually that day.
The threat of physical death was meaningless unless they were immortal beings.

However, if the consequences were spiritual death (separation from God) then that fits the plan of salvation better.
Is not our redemption intended to undo the consequences of the Fall? How does that work if the consequence was physical death?

--- SUMMARY STATEMENT ---

I launched this topic with a specific aim in mind. The answer to the topic title question.
But was mostly met with figurative blank stares as respondents seemed puzzled about my conclusion.
The answer seemed obvious to me and I had never really had to prove it to anyone before.

And initially we were bogged down with a definition of physical death.

So, the thread became an exploration of various views on the subject and a fleshing out of my own position.
I needed to provide some biblical evidence to satisfy the skeptics. Okay, fine...
Which proved to be a challenge for me. How could I substantiate what was so clear to me?
It became a discovery process as I searched for evidence. Here's what we discovered.
What sort of life and death are referred to in these passages?

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged
but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air,
the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You were dead in your transgressions and sins.
But God made you alive with Christ. (Eph. 2:1-5)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Colossians 2:13-14
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh,
God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us
and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

John 3:3-8 NIV
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked.
“Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you,
no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[b] must be born again.’
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where
it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[c]

Revelation 3:1 NIV
“To the angel[a] of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[b] of God and the seven stars.
I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Romans 8:9-11 NIV
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit,
if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ,
they do not belong to Christ.
10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin,
the Spirit gives life[a] because of righteousness.
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you,
he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
because of[b] his Spirit who lives in you.

[

Have you ever considered that maybe you’ve been given a false narrative, just maybe this story isn’t at all about the literal first man and woman, maybe it’s a story about something that will take place hundreds of years after it is penned?

 

[ProDeo]

Have you ever considered that maybe you’ve been given a false narrative, just maybe this story isn’t at all about the literal first man and woman, maybe it’s a story about something that will take place hundreds of years after it is penned?

Explain the riddle.