It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

bury pre-trib?
Kinda Difficult to "get rid of" God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, eh?

God's Great GRACE Departure!

??? invented like cults? has nothing? declining to discuss? uses excuses? words of preachers and books?
etc. etc. etc.???

How about we BURY ALL of these accusations, eh? Close ( BURY? ) this thread???

However, Still "praying without ceasing!"

Amen.

So, if you believe that,

• Maybe you would address the Op and show me where I am wrong.
• Maybe you would show us Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord.

All i hear is words.

 

[WPM]

That's an incomplete statement. There most certainly are Jews and gentiles. The distinction is removed when each come to Christ to be baptized into Him.

In Christ, is neither Jew nor Greek.

Two things to clearly see:

One, In Christ, there aren't Jews. But only in Christ.

Two, it's only in Christ that the Jew ceases to be identified as Jewish. This shows us two groups of people descended from Jacob. One, those who are not reborn, and remain identified as Jews, and two, those who have been reborn, and are no longer identified as Jews.

Colossians 3:9-11 KJV
9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So when we read in Ephesians 2, that of the two (Jews/Gentiles) God made one new man, this is not to say, of the two (Jews/Gentiles), God made them all Jews. That would directly contradict those passages which tell is that there aren't Jews in Christ. The distinction is removed, and we a single new man.

And what else do we see here? "then you are Abraham's seed." The apostle did not write that we are all now "Jacob's seed".

Much love!

You are missing the point: race means nothing today in God' eyes. This is something that Dispensensationalists miss. You need to move into the new covenant and see that the old covenant is gone forever. There’s no racial preference. Jews and Gentiles that reject Christ are of their father the devil. Jews and Gentiles that accept Christ are of their Heavenly Father. They are under the wrath of God and Antichrist. Any other gospel is a false gospel. It is another gospel.

The only way your arguments are sustained are by removing the whole New Testament teaching on this subject from off the table.

There has only ever been one people of God. We have been grafted into faithful Israel. You are trying to make 2 out of 1, when Scriptures clearly make 1 out of 2. I prefer Scripture to your theories.

Romans 2:25 tells us: “if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.”

Paul explains in Romans 9:8: “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Romans 10:12 states: “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”

I Corinthians 7:17 declares, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

Colossians 3:11 declares, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Galatians 3:28 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Galatians 5:2 declares, “if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

Race means nothing any more – forever, it is all of grace. Being natural means nothing when it comes to salvation. That is a myth that conflicts with New Testament teaching.

The fact is, there is (and only has been) one people of God from the beginning. Whilst they were largely found within the nation of Israel before the cross, that was broadened out after the cross to embrace all nations. Race means nothing under the new covenant. The New Testament outlines clearly and repeatedly that "there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.

 

[marks]

You are missing the point: race means nothing today in God' eyes. This is something that Dispensensationalists miss. You need to move into the new covenant and see that the old covenant is gone forever. There’s no racial preference. Jews and Gentiles that reject Christ are of their father the devil. Jews and Gentiles that accept Christ are of their Heavenly Father. They are under the wrath of God and Antichrist. Any other gospel is a false gospel. It is another gospel.

So you are simply telling me, as you've told me before, that you only believe some of God's promises, but not all, even when He ties His promise to the very sun rising and setting, but you don't believe it. On what basis do you believe any of God's promises?

Have you searched out the foundations of the earth? Have you measured the heavens? That's what it would take! Oh, and the sun and moon stop doing their thing! Can you make that happen?

Then why do you think God is wrong? When it's His choice to begin with?

We've been round and round this, I don't see any point it repeating it all over again with you. You simply continue to say that God has no more interest in the nation of Israel, the children of Jacob, yet the Bible is abundantly clear that you are wrong. The sun and moon thing, for one. The sun came up today. Did you see it?

Much love!

 

[WPM]

So you are simply telling me, as you've told me before, that you only believe some of God's promises, but not all, even when He ties His promise to the very sun rising and setting, but you don't believe it. On what basis do you believe any of God's promises?

Have you searched out the foundations of the earth? Have you measured the heavens? That's what it would take! Oh, and the sun and moon stop doing their thing! Can you make that happen?

Then why do you think God is wrong? When it's His choice to begin with?

We've been round and round this, I don't see any point it repeating it all over again with you. You simply continue to say that God has no more interest in the nation of Israel, the children of Jacob, yet the Bible is abundantly clear that you are wrong. The sun and moon thing, for one. The sun came up today. Did you see it?

Much love!

Stop twisting what I said. Most promises of God are conditional and not unconditional as you seem to intimate. The old covenant was full of such conditional promises. Also:

• I have never said I "only believe some of God's promises, but not all."
• I have never said "God is wrong."
• I have never said "God has no more interest in the nation of Israel, the children of Jacob."

These are all false charges. Because you cannot refute the Op you have to resort to misrepresenting the truth above.

 

[marks]

Stop twisting what I said. Most promises of God are conditional and not unconditional as you seem to intimate. The old covenant was full of such conditional promises. Also:

• I have never said I "only believe some of God's promises, but not all."
• I have never said "God is wrong."
• I have never said "God has no more interest in the nation of Israel, the children of Jacob."

These are all false charges. Because you cannot refute the Op you have to resort to misrepresenting the truth above.

Yes, this was a conditional promise. Look at the conditions.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The sun rose today, but you won't believe God's promise. You've not measured the heaven above, but still you won't believe!

So yes, these are conditional promises, and those are the conditions.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Yes, this was a conditional promise. Look at the conditions.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The sun rose today, but you won't believe God's promise. You've not measured the heaven above, but still you won't believe!

So yes, these are conditional promises, and those are the conditions.

Much love!

Were God's promises for these children of Jacob?

Numbers 25
3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.


Or these children of Jacob?

Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


Or these children of Jacob?

1 Thessalonians 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the
uttermost.

 

[WPM]

Yes, this was a conditional promise. Look at the conditions.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The sun rose today, but you won't believe God's promise. You've not measured the heaven above, but still you won't believe!

So yes, these are conditional promises, and those are the conditions.

Much love!

Jeremiah 31:35-37 says, “Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.”

This is speaking about true Israel - spiritual Israel within natural Israel. After all, we know: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed” (Romans 9:6-8).

Remember, there have been lengthy periods in history where ethnic Israel has not been a physical nation. Jeremiah 31:35-37 cannot therefore be talking about the unbroken continuous of a Jewish theocracy or does it relate to all Jews. Regardless of the disobedience of that nation, regardless of the scattering of that people-group, there has always been a remnant of Jews of the seed of Israel which have not ceased from being faithful to God. They belong to spiritual Israel - God's holy nation, a peculiar people (1 Peter 2:9). God's nation is a spiritual nation, not a physical nation that overwhelmingly rejects Jesus. True Israel has always been loyal to the Lord. There has always been a believing remnant of Jews - true Israel.

Premillennialists are focused on the wrong Israel.

Paul addresses this in Romans 11:1-5:

Q. “I say then, Hath God cast away his people?”

A. “God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

The evidence that God had not rejected Israel as a whole back in Paul’s day is shown here in the fact that there was a small remnant of believing Jews (including himself) that had accepted Christ and therefore embraced the new covenant arrangement.

Dispensationalists conveniently overlook this with their fixation on the whole nation of natural Israel. They seem to imagine that God must save every single Jew in order for Him to be considered faithful to Israel. But that is not what Scripture says or demands.

God had not cast away Israel in Paul’s day. He remained faithful to those who desired to embrace His only provision for sin and uncleanness. Even though most Israelites rejected Christ, those that were foreknown by God, and were true Israelites, came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

We should not miss this thought as we explore the remainder of his argument in Romans 9-11. This perfectly fits in with Romans 9:6. As Paul expands this argument on the salvation of Israel and tells us that all Israel shall be saved, he is doing it within the same context of a faithful believing remnant of Israelis.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Scott Downey,

God's plan is not to reign on this earth on an earthly throne of David, David is dead and buried and His tomb was with the Jews.
David is with the Lord in Heaven, and reigns with Him there.

You seem to be quoting part of what Peter states, but you disagree with what he also states, that David had not ascended to heaven.

Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, this was a conditional promise. Look at the conditions.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The sun rose today, but you won't believe God's promise. You've not measured the heaven above, but still you won't believe!

So yes, these are conditional promises, and those are the conditions.

Much love!

You do not undersand what the 'seed of Israel' is.
Becuase you are thinking according to the flesh.
Your own mind misses the fact that the jews ceased to exist as a nation for thousands of years.
Acording to your own reasoning you create an impossible conflict with the scripture you posit as proof of what actually?

The seed of Israel is the people of God. And they were not the people of God even in Jesus's day 2000 years ago, but some did believe and were the people of God, but the majority of them were not His people, and that goes back way farher into the past than in Jesus's day.

God swore in His wrath, the unbelieving jews would never enter into His rest.

And even today, Hebrews 3:6, You are proven not to be the people of God if you do not hold firm to Christ and continue on with Him believing.
If the Father does not grant you to know and believe in Christ, then you are not the people of God, meaning you are not of the seed of Israel.

John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

Hebrews 3
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope [a]firm to the end.

Be Faithful​

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Failure of the Wilderness Wanderers​

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Luke 13

The Narrow Way​

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’

27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

31 [i]On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, “Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You.”

32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be [j]perfected.’ 33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
v29, coming from the 4 corners of the earth into the kingdom of God, Jesus is telling the jews that the gentiles will enter into the kingdom of God and they will not as they are not the seed of Israel.
God only saves those who are His people.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9 - New King James Version

Israel’s Rejection of Christ - I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the...

www.biblegateway.com

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose​

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no point pursuing these things with someone who does not recognize both Israel and the body of Christ for who and what they are. So long as you believe that National Israel has been cast out by God, there will be no agreement on a great number of things, including eschatology.

As long as you misrepresent what I believe, there is no chance of having a reasonable discussion with you. I do NOT believe that national Israel has been cast out by God. I simply agree with Paul that it is those who have faith in national Israel that God accepts as His people along with Gentiles who have faith. You falsely think that being a national Israelite in and of itself makes someone one of God's people, but the NT repeatedly says it is those who have faith that are God's people.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Why would I say that God cast away national Israel when Paul said "Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew"? Paul used himself as an example to prove that God did not cast away national Israel along with the rest of the remnant of believers of his day. But, salvation is an individual thing. Those who had rejected Christ up to that point were blinded and were cut off in order for the gospel to go to the Gentiles who, in turn, were to make the unbelieving Israelites jealous and want to be saved as well. God did not cast any of them away. Any of them who never repented cast themselves away.

Anytime I've discussed such things with you, and a number of others, the response from you is that the many passages in Scripture that give ironclad promises that God will yet save and establish national Israel - the children of Jacob, your response is that they just are not true, and that is not valid when you are talking about God's Word.

What a lie. If you have nothing but lies to offer, why should I take you seriously? I NEVER say that ANY scripture is no true. Disagreeing with your interpretation of scripture is not a case of saying it's not true. Stop being ridiculous. You, like all dispensationalists, are extremely ignorant of what is taught in the New Testament. The NT makes it very clear that God's people were joined together into one body and His people are those who have faith, whether they are Jew or Gentile. Making salvation about one's nationality the way you do instead of being about whether someone has faith or not contradicts the entire New Testament.

So there is no discussion, or very limited, because denying the validity of the Bible is a conversation killer, when we are discussing the Bible.

Lying is a conversation killer and that's what you're doing here. I NEVER deny the validity of the Bible. I deny the validity of your false interpretations of the Bible.

"OH, that part isn't true", what is someone supposed to say to that? Yes it is. And that's it, convo over.

I NEVER say "that part isn't true". Every word in scripture is true. Why do you think it's okay to lie? You need to examine yourself and figure out how you came to decide that lying is okay.

If you can accept the truthfulness of just this passage (there are so many others) we'd have something to build with. But you don't, and so we don't.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun rise this morning? Yes it did. Is Israel - the children of Jacob - a nation before God today? Yes it is. Will you acknowledge this?

I fully accept the truthfulness of that passage and it is described in the NT. Verses 31 to 34 are quoted within Hebrews 8:8-12 in relation to the new covenant, which was established by the blood of Christ long ago in order to provide the forgiveness of sins for the people of Israel on the condition that they put their faith in Christ. And God included Gentiles in the new covenant as well because no one is saved apart from the blood of the new covenant that Christ shed long ago. Your problem is that you don't accept the NT explanations of OT passages like that one.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Let's start with addressing my post if you actually wish to engage.

Much love!

Mark, think about, there is a reason they do not understand. Young Christians can be misled by these type things so I endeavor to speak truth to them as much as possible. These people are intrinsic, the hear nothing you say. You are just wasting your time tbh. They are never going to grasp it until they allow God to reveal His truth on this unto them.

About 10 years ago I was praying, Lord, why is it tht the church has so many beliefs on who the 144,000 are, on the timing of the Rapture, on who and what the Beast is, on what Babylon means etc. and He was like "Ron, you guys already know it all".

So, I understood in an instant God wanted me to look at all of these things I had believed that had people confused on differing ideas, and to simply say, God what does this mean I started doing that, and every time God shows me. They key is one understanding can unlock another understanding. I have heard many, many things on the 144,000, they are 144,000 Super Jewish Evangelists, ever hear that? But Rev. 7 says God has to protect them !! In short, just like the 10 Virgin Brides are not all Females and not 10, but the number 10 stands for Completion as in Complete Christendom the 144,000 Virgin Makes is also a code, but its a multiplied code. 10 = Completion and 12 = Fulness so 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or its God saying Fulness x Completion, or the number thereof is none of Satan's business. Elsewhere in Zech. 13:8-9 He used 1/3, so in both cases God was never going to give Satan a heads up on the true numbers ahead of time where he could plan his actions. The 144,000 is Israel repenting, both men, Women and Children. Why Male Virgins? Who was called first? Israel, thus they get designated as Male Virgins and we the Church as Female Virgins. We are not virgins in body (mostly) but in Spirit because we are a new man, washed in Jesus blood.

I have the ability to hear what God is saying because I do not need to be right 100% of the time. I used to be that way a long time ago. Maybe one day they will learn, but they will never change the facts that God takes the Church away just before the 70th week starts. They can say anything they want, we know they are in error. It is what it is. I just pry fir them that God will reveal His truths because we as humans can not reach them. People say it doesn't matter anyway, it does it will lead some young people to hell, because they dis not fear they would miss the rapture, thus when they go through the tribulation they will be many who are too weak to resist the Beast and his minions when they threaten a GF or BF pr Parents with death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isaiah 11:10-12 KJV
10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12) And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

You posted this without commentary (for some reason), but I assume that you think this supports your doctrine somehow? Did you know that Paul associated that passage with salvation coming to the Gentiles which obviously began long ago already? Your ignorance of what is taught in the New Testament causes you to misinterpret OT passages like this one.

Romans 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Why would you not interpret the passage the same way Paul did? Do you not think that Paul knew what he was talking about? Why do you apply the passage to some future time when Paul said it was already applicable in his day and applies to God bringing salvation to the Gentiles through His Son Jesus Christ?

Matthew 24:30-35 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

How exactly do you think this passage supports your doctrine?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun rise this morning? Yes it did. Is Israel - the children of Jacob - a nation before God today? Yes it is. Will you acknowledge this?

If you don't believe this promise, on what basis do you believe any of God's promises?

You need to read that passage more carefully. That passage indicates that God would never "cast off ALL the seed of Israel for all that they have done". And He hasn't cast them all off, as Paul showed here...

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

You try to make one's nationality a factor in being one of God's people, but the entire NT teaches otherwise. Being a child of God is based on faith (Galatians 3:26) and not nationality (Romans 9:6-8).

 

[Scott Downey]

You need to read that passage more carefully. That passage indicates that God would never "cast off ALL the seed of Israel for all that they have done". And He hasn't cast them all off, as Paul showed here...

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

You try to make one's nationality a factor in being one of God's people, but the entire NT teaches otherwise. Being a child of God is based on faith (Galatians 3:26) and not nationality (Romans 9:6-8).

What these others really believe is that the unbelieving Jews are God's people forever.
And that there are 2 separate peoples of God, believers in Christ and the unbelieving Jews.

That is why they bring up Isaiah 11.

 

[Scott Downey]

Dispensationalism is basically the method of interpreting the scriptures that sees two distinct peoples of God, with two distinct destinies – Israel and the Church. Some of the tenets that all or most contemporary mainstream Dispensationalists would hold to include the following:​

1. The Church is not the continuation of God's Old Testament people, but a distinct body born on the Day of Pentecost.
2. The Church is never equated with Israel in the New Testament, and Christians are not Jews, true Israel, etc.
3. The prophecies made to Israel in the Old Testament are not being fulfilled in the Church, nor will they ever be.
4. The Church does not participate in the New Covenant prophesied in the Old Testament; it is for ethnic Israel, and will be established in a future millennial kingdom.
5. The Old Testament saints were saved by faith alone, on the basis of the Calvary-work of Christ alone; however, the object of their faith was not Christ, but rather the revelation peculiar to their dispensation.
6. The Old Testament saints did not know of the coming “Church Age,” of the resurrection of Christ, or basically, of what we today call the gospel.
7. When Jesus came to earth, he offered the Jews a physical kingdom, but they rejected him.
8. When Jesus proclaimed “the gospel of the Kingdom,” it was the news about how ethnic Jews might enter and find rewards in this physical kingdom, and is to be distinguished from the gospel as defined in I Corinthians 15:3-4, which the apostles later proclaimed to the church.
9. After the Jews rejected Jesus' kingdom offer, he inaugurated a parenthetical “Church Age”, which will be concluded immediately before God again takes up his dealings with his national people, ethnic Israel.
10. During the “Church Age,” Jesus is not reigning from the throne of David; he is engaged instead in his priestly work, and his kingly work will take place in the future millennial kingdom.
11. At some unspecified but imminent time, Jesus will return (but not all the way to earth, just to the air) and rapture his Church, also called his Bride; for the following seven years, they will feast with him at the marriage supper of the Lamb; meanwhile, on earth, he will begin to deal with his national people, ethnic Israel, again, calling them to himself and preserving them in the midst of seven years of great tribulation; at the midpoint of which, the Antichrist will set himself up as god in the rebuilt Jewish temple, and demand worship from the world.
12. After these seven years, Christ will return, this time all the way to earth. He will defeat the forces of evil, bind Satan and cast him into a pit, and inaugurate the physical Jewish Kingdom that he had offered during his life on earth. The Jews who survived the tribulation will populate the earth during this blessed golden era, and the Christians will reign spiritually, in glorified bodies.
13. After these thousand years, Satan will be released and will gather an army from the offspring of the Jews who survived the tribulation. He will be finally defeated and cast into hell. At this time, the wicked dead will be resurrected and judged, whereas the righteous dead had already been resurrected one-thousand-seven years previously, at the rapture. Christ will then usher in the New Heavens and New Earth, and the destinies of all mankind will be finalized. Dispensationalists are divided as to whether or not there will remain a distinction between Christians and Jews in the New Earth.

Are There Two Peoples of God or One? | Monergism

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What these others really believe is that the unbelieving Jews are God's people forever.
And that there are 2 separate peoples of God, believers in Christ and the unbelieving Jews.

That is why they bring up Isaiah 11.

Right. But, they fail to see that Isaiah 11 is quoted in the NT in a New Testament era context in relation to Gentile believers being made God's people as well as Jewish believers, such as when Paul quoted Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12.

 

[Scott Downey]

Right. But, they fail to see that Isaiah 11 is quoted in the NT in a New Testament era context in relation to Gentile believers being made God's people as well as Jewish believers, such as when Paul quoted Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12.

Agree with that. They continue on with a false belief, and strongly held too.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Mark, think about, there is a reason they do not understand. Young Christians can be misled by these type things so I endeavor to speak truth to them as much as possible. These people are intrinsic, the hear nothing you say. You are just wasting your time tbh. They are never going to grasp it until they allow God to reveal His truth on this unto them.

LOL. We are not young Christians. And it's because we allow God to reveal His truth to us that we understand the falsehood of pre-trib dispensationalism.

About 10 years ago I was praying, Lord, why is it tht the church has so many beliefs on who the 144,000 are, on the timing of the Rapture, on who and what the Beast is, on what Babylon means etc. and He was like "Ron, you guys already know it all".

So, I understood in an instant God wanted me to look at all of these things I had believed that had people confused on differing ideas, and to simply say, God what does this mean I started doing that, and every time God shows me. They key is one understanding can unlock another understanding. I have heard many, many things on the 144,000, they are 144,000 Super Jewish Evangelists, ever hear that? But Rev. 7 says God has to protect them !! In short, just like the 10 Virgin Brides are not all Females and not 10, but the number 10 stands for Completion as in Complete Christendom the 144,000 Virgin Makes is also a code, but its a multiplied code. 10 = Completion and 12 = Fulness so 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or its God saying Fulness x Completion, or the number thereof is none of Satan's business. Elsewhere in Zech. 13:8-9 He used 1/3, so in both cases God was never going to give Satan a heads up on the true numbers ahead of time where he could plan his actions. The 144,000 is Israel repenting, both men, Women and Children. Why Male Virgins? Who was called first? Israel, thus they get designated as Male Virgins and we the Church as Female Virgins. We are not virgins in body (mostly) but in Spirit because we are a new man, washed in Jesus blood.

I have the ability to hear what God is saying because I do not need to be right 100% of the time. I used to be that way a long time ago. Maybe one day they will learn, but they will never change the facts that God takes the Church away just before the 70th week starts. They can say anything they want, we know they are in error. It is what it is. I just pry fir them that God will reveal His truths because we as humans can not reach them. People say it doesn't matter anyway, it does it will lead some young people to hell, because they dis not fear they would miss the rapture, thus when they go through the tribulation they will be many who are too weak to resist the Beast and his minions when they threaten a GF or BF pr Parents with death.

Why do you act as if tribulation and persecution are only future things. Stop being so ignorant. Many Christians have gone through tribulation and persecution for the past almost 2,000 years already.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

 

[Scott Downey]

Right. But, they fail to see that Isaiah 11 is quoted in the NT in a New Testament era context in relation to Gentile believers being made God's people as well as Jewish believers, such as when Paul quoted Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12.

I know some people will appreciate that Isaiah 11 finds it's fulfilment in the new earth God will make at the restoration of all things when He sends Christ,
Acts 3
20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began.

even a logical computer mind shows that truth

Isaiah 11 References in the New Testament

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show the Isaiah 11 verse quotations in the New Testament

Isaiah 11 is quoted or alluded to in a few key places in the New Testament, particularly in reference to messianic hope and the inclusion of Gentiles. Here are the main connections:

Isaiah 11 in the New Testament​

1. Isaiah 11:1​

• “A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse…”
• Allusion in Luke 3:23–38: The genealogy of Jesus traces his lineage to Jesse, father of David, reinforcing the messianic expectation of a descendant from Jesse’s line.
• Romans 15:12: Paul quotes Isaiah 11:10 directly:

2. Isaiah 11:10​

• “In that day the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him…”
• Romans 15:12 again uses this verse to emphasize the inclusion of Gentiles in God's plan through Christ.

3. Isaiah 11:4​

• “He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth…”
• 2 Thessalonians 2:8 echoes this imagery:

These references show how Isaiah 11’s vision of a righteous, Spirit-filled ruler and a peaceful kingdom was foundational to New Testament messianic theology—especially in portraying Jesus as the fulfillment of that prophecy and the hope for all nations.
Would you like to explore how Isaiah’s vision of peace (like the wolf lying with the lamb) influenced Christian eschatology or art?

sure

Beautiful! Isaiah 11’s imagery—especially the peaceful kingdom and the messianic ruler—has inspired Christian eschatology, art, and theology for centuries. Let’s explore how its vision echoes through New Testament themes and Christian imagination.

Isaiah 11’s Influence on Christian Eschatology​

Isaiah 11 paints a picture of a Spirit-filled ruler from Jesse’s line who ushers in justice and peace. The New Testament draws on this to shape its vision of Jesus and the future kingdom:

️ Peaceful Kingdom Imagery​

• Isaiah 11:6–9 describes animals living in harmony: “The wolf will live with the lamb…”
• This vision is echoed in Revelation’s portrayal of a restored creation:
  • Revelation 21:4: “He will wipe every tear… there will be no more death or mourning…”
  • Romans 8:19–22: Creation itself longs for liberation and renewal.

Inclusion of Gentiles​

• Isaiah 11:10: “The nations will rally to him…”
• Romans 15:12 quotes this directly to affirm Gentile inclusion in Christ’s kingdom.

Isaiah 11 in Christian Art​

Artists across centuries have visualized Isaiah 11’s peaceable kingdom:

• Edward Hicks’ “The Peaceable Kingdom”: A famous American folk painting showing children and animals coexisting peacefully, inspired directly by Isaiah 11.
• Medieval illuminated manuscripts: Often depict the shoot from Jesse as a tree growing into Christ’s lineage—called the “Tree of Jesse.”

Theological Themes​

Isaiah 11 contributes to several key Christian doctrines:

• Christ as the Davidic Messiah: Rooted in Jesse’s line, filled with the Spirit (Isaiah 11:1–2).
• The Spirit’s role: Echoed in Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 3:16) and in Pentecost (Acts 2).
• Justice and righteousness: Isaiah’s ruler judges with equity—mirrored in Jesus’ teachings and Revelation’s final judgment.

Would you like to see how this chapter influenced early church fathers or explore more artistic interpretations of the peaceable kingdom?

Me asking: You quote Revelation 21, and the new earth when God will make all things new. Do you see then Isaiah 11 fulfillments found partly in today and in Revelations chapters 21 and 22?

Absolutely, Scott—many theologians and biblical scholars see Isaiah 11 as a prophecy with layered fulfillment: partly realized in the present through Christ, and ultimately fulfilled in the future as described in Revelation 21–22. Let’s break it down:

Isaiah 11: Partial Fulfillment Today​

Isaiah 11 begins with the promise of a ruler from Jesse’s line—Jesus is widely understood to be this “shoot”:

• Jesus’ first comingfulfilled Isaiah 11:1–5:
  • He came from David’s lineage.
  • He was filled with the Spirit (see Matthew 3:16).
  • He preached justice, righteousness, and equity.
• The inclusion of Gentiles(Isaiah 11:10) is actively fulfilled:
  • Paul quotes this in Romans 15:12 to show that Gentiles now share in the hope of Christ.
• The transformation of hearts:
  • While Isaiah 11:6–9 speaks of animals living in peace, many interpret this symbolically as the reconciliation of hostile human groups—Jews and Gentiles, oppressors and oppressed—through Christ.

Isaiah 11: Ultimate Fulfillment in Revelation 21–22​

The full peace and restoration Isaiah envisions—where “the wolf will dwell with the lamb”—is not yet visible in the world. Revelation 21–22 picks up this thread:

• New Heaven and New Earth(Revelation 21:1):
  • Echoes Isaiah’s vision of a renewed creation where violence and fear are gone.
• No more death or pain(Revelation 21:4):
  • Completes Isaiah’s vision of safety and harmony.
• The river of life and tree of life(Revelation 22:1–2):
  • Symbolize healing and abundance—paralleling Isaiah’s themes of restoration and divine wisdom.

So Where Are We Now?​

Many Christians see us living in the “already but not yet” tension:

• Already: Jesus has come, the Spirit is at work, and reconciliation is possible.
• Not yet: The full cosmic peace Isaiah describes awaits the final renewal in Revelation.

Would you like to explore how this layered fulfillment affects Christian ethics or how early church fathers interpreted Isaiah 11?

 

[Scott Downey]

LOL. We are not young Christians. And it's because we allow God to reveal His truth to us that we understand the falsehood of pre-trib dispensationalism.


Why do you act as if tribulation and persecution are only future things. Stop being so ignorant. Many Christians have gone through tribulation and persecution for the past almost 2,000 years already.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Jesus tells us exactly the same thing

John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

As does 1 Peter 1, and the grief it can cause.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.