Rapture ... soon?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Congratulation for agreeing with me that Christ was not "tempted to sin" but tested or trailed.

Same thing. Scripture says this...

Hebrews 2:18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

This illustrates your problem. You don't interpret scripture with scripture. There is no basis for saying that Jesus was not tempted to sin because scripture says He was tempted like we are, but was without sin. But, the difference between Him and us is that He does not have an inherited sinful nature like we do and He never sinned. Because He was tempted to sin and overcame the temptation, He understands what it's like to be tempted and "He is able to aid those who are tempted".

Do you know what the number 40 signifies in Scripture? Doesn't it represents a period of testing or trail? It specifically parallels the 40 years of Israel in the wilderness - - showing how Christ fulfilled what Israel failed! It is all spiritually discerned but you depends on a literal encounter when the spiritual meaning reveals something far deeper. It is the result of the lens of traditional theology due to inherited belief that Satan is a personal fallen angel named Lucifer so he must be a created being by God. Unfortunately this is how the natural mind reads Scripture, taking the narrative literally, while overlooking the spiritual truths behind the spirit of disobedience - a rebellious spirit of man!

LOL. Now you are denying that Jesus literally fasted in the desert for 40 days and nights and are saying that account is just all symbolism? Unbelievable. You. Can. Not. Be. Taken. Seriously.

 

[PinSeeker]

I love (hate, actually) how everybody on here insults each other in so many different ways... intelligence level, cognitive ability, spiritual state, personal worthiness of consideration... Wow. I mean, this is supposed to be Christian-to-Christian interaction, for goodness sake; one might think nobody here has ever heard of grace, or unity, or peace... any of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). Noisy gongs (1 Corinthians 13:1), as it were...

And of course the irony is that I'll be... "excoriated"... for making such a post... <smile>

Grace and peace to all...

 

[TribulationSigns]

Same thing. Scripture says this...

Hebrews 2:18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

This illustrates your problem. You don't interpret scripture with scripture. There is no basis for saying that Jesus was not tempted to sin because scripture says He was tempted like we are, but was without sin. But, the difference between Him and us is that He does not have an inherited sinful nature like we do and He never sinned. Because He was tempted to sin and overcame the temptation, He understands what it's like to be tempted and "He is able to aid those who are tempted".

Obviously you were not reading my previous post well. Read again:

Mat 4:1​

(1) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.​

​

The word you keep calling tempted is actually the word tested or tried. Jesus was NOT "tempted to sin" as you seem to imagine - - as if He had sinful desires, feelings, or wanted to sin. That alone would imply sin in His thought, which is impossible! You should know better. Christ NEVER desired sin, NEVER entertained it, and NEVER had a single thought toward it. Rather, He was tested by the devil, and yet remained completely without sin. In other words, He passed the test flawlessly — in thought, word, and deed. Look the word up yourself — it means tested or tried. That’s a major difference! As it is written:​

​

Heb 4:15​

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities (tempted); but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

​

Christ was tried in all points as we are, but unlike us, He did not fail the test. Again, the word means tried or tested. ​

LOL. Now you are denying that Jesus literally fasted in the desert for 40 days and nights and are saying that account is just all symbolism? Unbelievable. You. Can. Not. Be. Taken. Seriously.

(Chuckle) Spoken like a true natural man — so stubborn you can’t even see past your own nose, let alone grasp spiritual truth.

Tell me, was Jonah literally in the belly of a great fish? Yes. But does that event carry a spiritual meaning beyond the surface? Absolutely yes.

Was the axe head that sank to the bottom of the Jordan and then floated back up a literal event? Yes. But does it also reveal something deeper spiritually? Yes again.

Did manna literally fall from heaven to feed the Israelites in the wilderness? Yes. But was it also pointing to something far greater spiritually? Of course.

So when Christ fasted forty days and nights in the wilderness — was that a literal event? Yes. But does the fasting, the wilderness, and the number forty all point to a deeper spiritual truth? Without question, yes!

Maybe it’s time you grew up, put down your carnal coffee, and started smelling the spiritual brew.

 

[WPM]

You came back. Good, was thinking I was all along in a Amillennial/ Post- Trib nightmare. I will PM you. We can discuss this privately, no one else is interested.
And for me, this thread is finished.

Lol. No, Pretrib credibility is.

 

[WPM]

Congratulation for agreeing with me that Christ was not "tempted to sin" but tested or trailed.

Do you know what the number 40 signifies in Scripture? Doesn't it represents a period of testing or trail? It specifically parallels the 40 years of Israel in the wilderness - - showing how Christ fulfilled what Israel failed! It is all spiritually discerned but you depends on a literal encounter when the spiritual meaning reveals something far deeper. It is the result of the lens of traditional theology due to inherited belief that Satan is a personal fallen angel named Lucifer so he must be a created being by God. Unfortunately this is how the natural mind reads Scripture, taking the narrative literally, while overlooking the spiritual truths behind the spirit of disobedience - a rebellious spirit of man!

So, are you saying Satan is not a fallen angel? Are you saying demons are not fallen angels? Are you saying Satan is not a created being?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I am proof that is not true.

Hardly!

So, you are saying you think that "the spirit of disobedience that works within mankind" was talking to Jesus in the desert for 40 days and nights? How does that work exactly?

Spirit of adversary - the spirit of man!

That is not taught in scripture anywhere. You are just making things up in your imagination. The reality is that Satan and the other fallen angels try to take advantage of people's weak flesh to tempt them to rebel against God.

It’s right there in Scripture — you just don’t like what it says. Your “reality” isn’t correct; it’s blindness dressed up as understanding.

Satan isn’t some red creature running around with horns — he’s the spirit of disobedience that works within man. It is a spirit of man that we all once had! And the man who carries that spirit is the messenger (angel) of his own rebellious spirit! They fight against us who are the messengers (angels) of the spirit of Christ (Michael)! Satan and the "fallen angels" weren't spiritual beings that God created.

What do you think, that it was Job's own rebellious spirit that appeared in heaven before God and inquired about himself?

(Sigh) See, my friends? This right here proves SI has no clue where I’m actually coming from. He’s already twisting things, imagining that I’m teaching Job’s own rebellious spirit showed up in heaven — something the Scripture never says!

Yet somehow, he thinks he’s figured out my doctrine. LOL! Talk about missing the whole spiritual forest for one imaginary tree.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

How do you reconcile your understanding of Satan with this passage?

Glad that you asked! I am happy to explain "IF" you have spiritual ears to hear. Some worthy repeat. You ready?

Job 1:6

• "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them."

Job 2:1

• "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord."

By the way, if anyone's bible translates these words (sons of God) as angels, that is a serious error. The words, "sons of God" in these verses are the exact same Hebrew words found throughout scripture for sons and God. It is the same words found in Genesis chapter 6. The words are [ben 'elohiym] or as some write it [bane el-o-heem] which is literally offspring or children/Sons of God. The exact same words in all the verses. There is no word angel or messenger there in the original Hebrew. Any Bible that translates these words as angel is making a "unjustifiable commentary" and that's not really a translation or transliteration of the Hebrew. And believe me, there is a difference. Commentaries can be helpful, but when they find themselves on the pages of scripture masquerading "as Scripture," that is a serious error. It is an unrighteous act for anyone to translate [ben 'elohiym] as angels when God inspired the words meaning "Children of God."

As for the actual verse, some people have legitimately been confused by the language that these sons of God "came to present [yatsab] (meaning, to station or position) themselves before the Lord." Some think that this must mean that they were angels in "literal" heaven. That is not the case! We have to keep in mind the times that we are reading about. The time of Job was the early years of the world. The language of "presenting themselves before God", is common in Biblical History, and doesn't denote literally appearing in physical Heaven before Him. It is simply common language of the day denoting coming to a place designated for the presence of God, in order to inquire of Him. Today, we'd go to a church to do this. That would be our coming to present ourselves and inquire of God. In those days, they would have their own designated Holy place. We see this clearly for example in Deuteronomy chapter 31:

Deuteronomy 31:14-15

• "...call Joshua, and Present Yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and Presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation.
• and the Lord appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud:...."

God told Moses to present [yatsab] (same word) himself and Joshua before Him in the tabernacle, and "God" appeared there and spoke to them. Please note, they did not appear in Heaven, but in a place of earth. Comparing scripture with scripture we see this language of presenting oneself before the Lord doesn't denote an appearance in the third heaven as you think! Here they presented themselves before God, but it was in the physical tabernacle on earth. It's the exact same thing as the sons of God presenting themselves in Job. In these early days, God spoke to His servants the Prophets in a special way. And often times that meant an appearance or His presence in a special way. But don't take my word for it, just compare scripture with scripture.

1st Samuel 10:19

• "...Now therefore Present Yourselves before the Lord by your tribes, and by your thousands."

Present (same Hebrew word) themselves before the Lord and there they would inquire of God. That didn't mean that the tribes of Israel went into Heaven to present themselves before the Lord. This is the language God uses to describe the official, recognized gathering together into the place of the presence of God. Another verse is, Numbers 11:16 where the Lord tells Moses to gather 70 into the tabernacle to STAND (same Hebrew word PRESENT) themselves with Moses, and "GOD" would come down and talk with Him there. You see, this was simply the language used in the old days when the believers or sons/children of God would come to pray, worship and inquire of the Lord. They would present themselves before the Lord for instruction. There is no different in saying, "the sons of God came to present themselves before the lord," and in saying "the believers came to present themselves before the Lord." It's human beings in view here, not your feather winged angels, and it's the designated place of worship on earth, not in physical heaven!

Next literally we read in Job 1:6 says "..and there doth come Satan in their midst." So the sons of God came to present themselves before God, and Satan (the adversary) came in the midst of the congregation with them. As indeed Satan normally does among God's people. Not at all unlike the 12 Disciples with Christ in Jerusalem, and the spirit of Satan coming in the midst of them within Judas! There we have an example of Judas as the adversary coming in the midst of the sons of God at the Sop with our Lord, and Christ telling him, "That thou doest, do quickly." Once again we see that Satan makes his appearance on earth through men.

Yes, it's an event that took place, but not in heaven, not with angels, not with a being called Satan, but in the early assembly of God's children, where the adversary came among them to bring railing accusation, and God responding with a teaching lesson for all of us that would last in His word until Christ returns. The adversary meant it for evil, but God used it for good.

Moreover, this also proves to any Bible believing, rationally thinking person that if this were very literally Satan in heaven at the time of Job, then undeniably he couldn't have been the fallen angelic being in the Garden of Eden that was allegedly cursed because that would necessarily mean that after that cursing, God allowed him back into heaven as a evil angel. Huh?! Yet again "proving" the total and clear bankruptcy of this doctrine that this was the Same Being Satan that was in the Garden. How is Satan cursed in the Garden, and then years later at the time of Job, back in heaven with God and other supposed angels. Come on! This makes no sense because it's not true! It's a church tradition of fallen angels that has been passed down through the years and that many Christians cannot seem to let go of, like you! Even when they know it's contradictory, convoluted and inconsistent.

God talking to Satan is no different from God asking Adam and Eve where they were, when of course He knew perfectly well where they were. Or Him telling the Serpent in the garden that he had been cursed. It's all for our learning. Not a discussion for Satan, but for us. In this conversation we understand the mind of wicked man who inserts himself into God's assembly and reviles and speaks evil against God's faithful. There is nothing new under the sun. What does God do? God allows adversity upon Job, knowing the end from the beginning, for our benefit and edification.

As for the rest of Job 1, you need to mediate on this first if you receive the above truth! Selah! I will not waste my time throwing pearls before the swine if it won't receive the love of the truth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So, are you saying Satan is not a fallen angel? Are you saying demons are not fallen angels? Are you saying Satan is not a created being?

What do you think? Did you have problem reading the posts I wrote here earlier that already answered these questions?

 

[WPM]

Obviously you were not reading my previous post well. Read again:

Mat 4:1​

(1) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.​

​

The word you keep calling tempted is actually the word tested or tried. Jesus was NOT "tempted to sin" as you seem to imagine - - as if He had sinful desires, feelings, or wanted to sin. That alone would imply sin in His thought, which is impossible! You should know better. Christ NEVER desired sin, NEVER entertained it, and NEVER had a single thought toward it. Rather, He was tested by the devil, and yet remained completely without sin. In other words, He passed the test flawlessly — in thought, word, and deed. Look the word up yourself — it means tested or tried. That’s a major difference! As it is written:​

​

Heb 4:15​

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities (tempted); but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

​

Christ was tried in all points as we are, but unlike us, He did not fail the test. Again, the word means tried or tested. ​

(Chuckle) Spoken like a true natural man — so stubborn you can’t even see past your own nose, let alone grasp spiritual truth.

Tell me, was Jonah literally in the belly of a great fish? Yes. But does that event carry a spiritual meaning beyond the surface? Absolutely yes.

Was the axe head that sank to the bottom of the Jordan and then floated back up a literal event? Yes. But does it also reveal something deeper spiritually? Yes again.

Did manna literally fall from heaven to feed the Israelites in the wilderness? Yes. But was it also pointing to something far greater spiritually? Of course.

So when Christ fasted forty days and nights in the wilderness — was that a literal event? Yes. But does the fasting, the wilderness, and the number forty all point to a deeper spiritual truth? Without question, yes!

Maybe it’s time you grew up, put down your carnal coffee, and started smelling the spiritual brew.

Can you not engage respectfully with him?

 

[rwb]

So, are you saying Satan is not a fallen angel?

Can you provide passages from Scripture saying Satan is a fallen angel?

 

[rwb]

Can you not engage respectfully with him?

Respect for one another is something we could all use in this discussion.

 

[David in NJ]

As I said and have been posting _ for years _ I am an adherent to the Mid-Trib/ Pre- Wrath view. Been saying the last trumpet is the Seventh ( Rev
11:15 for years. I am just open to the Pre-Trib view because many brilliant Pastors like John MacArthur, (who was one of my go to theologians for answers). My Pastor was Post-Trib. On every other subject I would agree with them, just not in this area.
The multitude seen in heaven by John were taken out of the Great Tribulation ( Rev. 7:9), which means they were in it or at least on earth during the "beginning of sorrows" ( Matt. 24). But the key here is the GT is not over yet, so they are taken out in the middle. The Book of Revelation is not chronological. If you can get that than maybe you'd see things differently.
"Immediately after those days" simply means the ones just discussed which were wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilence, etc, which are the beginning of sorrows that we are experiencing now - but there is more to come. You see at that moment, immediately after thise days, He shows up and His WRATH COMES - MEANING MORE DAYS, MANY! But the beginning of sorrows is tribulation as we now see in Russia, the Middle East, but not extreme yet. We saw pestilence worldwide didn't we with Covid-19? Famines, earthquakes, etc., etc.
In Rev. 3, God promises to take the faithful out of the hour of trial, His wrath and judgment period.
The Bible states in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that God has not appointed Christians to wrath, but to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ. This verse, along with 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and Romans 5:9, emphasizes that believers are saved from God's wrath by Jesus' sacrificial death and are destined to live with Him.
Key Verses:

• 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV): "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ".
• 1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV): "...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—even Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come".
• Romans 5:9 (NIV): "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more surely will we be saved from God’s wrath through him!".

So, the wrath of God comes in the Seven Bowls at the sound of the Seventh Trumpet.
Still, with the timing which is difficult to understand because I do believe the Revelatiln is not all chronilogical, the prophetic mysteries still unsolved, and that Heaven is outside our time domain, it is possible for a Pre-Trib scenario if the trumpets were blown quickly up there, but down here the events related to them were manifest gradually, accumulate and overlap throughout the 3.5 year period.
I am open to being wrong about my view and would lean towards a Pre-Trib rather than a Post -Trib thank you very much.

Great Post

Pre-Wrath Deliverance is 100% God's Promise to us who are in Christ = 1 Thess 1:10 & 5:9 and of course GOSPEL

 

[David in NJ]

Can you provide passages from Scripture saying Satan is a fallen angel?

YES

 

[marks]

You just claimed God spoke to you and said there will be no pre-trib rapture in October or in 2025. I don't believe you - you're a false prophet!

Yes, I feel certain he made that up as a poke at you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Your tone and mockery simply confirm that truth.

Something so many don't understand . . . their words, their speech, it reveals themself, not others.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

If it's mockery and ridicule and contempt that are coming from one's mouth (keyboard) then that is what their heart is filled with.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

You just claimed God spoke to you and said there will be no pre-trib rapture in October or in 2025. I don't believe you - you're a false prophet!

All who say "pre-trib rapture" are speaking false prophecy as they speak from a heart of unbelief against the words of Christ, the Apostles and the OT Prophets.

The LORD Jesus Christ says: "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days.........I come for My Elect/Bride/Church"

JESUS gave great detail of this in His Gospel.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and He will only speak the Truth of Christ and would never contradict Christ.

HOLY SPIRIT says: October will pass with no pre-trib rapture.

HOLY SPIRIT says: the Year 2025 will pass with no pre-trib rapture.

Any 'christian' who believes in "pre-trib rapture" is self-deceived against the warnings/words of Christ, the Apostles and the OT Prophets.
They are self-deceived because they fear and obey men over God to the point of agreeing with the Serpent from the Garden:

Serpent speak: Did Jesus really say, "I come after the Tribulation of those days"

The more a christian alters the scriptures to prop up an idol, the greater that person will suffer loss.

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear;
for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[David in NJ]

Something so many don't understand . . . their words, their speech, it reveals themself, not others.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

If it's mockery and ridicule and contempt that are coming from one's mouth (keyboard) then that is what their heart is filled with.

Much love!

Have you no fear of God?

The LORD Jesus Christ says: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days.........I Come and gather My Elect/Saints/Church"

Pre-trib rapture directly refutes the words of Christ, the Apostles and the OT Prophets.

Serpent speak: Did Jesus really say, "I come after the Tribulation of those days"

Out of the abundance of the heart man speaks = pre-trib rapture = full of spiritual error/falsehood from a heart that fears/reveres men

 

[rwb]

YES

???

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

(Chuckle) Spoken like a true natural man — so stubborn you can’t even see past your own nose, let alone grasp spiritual truth.

LOL. Keep the jokes coming. Anyone who denies the existence of Satan and angels clearly has very little spiritual discernment.

Tell me, was Jonah literally in the belly of a great fish? Yes. But does that event carry a spiritual meaning beyond the surface? Absolutely yes.

So, you do acknowledge that Jesus literally fasted in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights? But, you think the conversations between Him and the devil, Satan, didn't actually happen?

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” 4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” 5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ” 7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”

Do you deny that Jesus literally said the things that are recorded here (and after this)? If not, then who do you think He was talking to? When it says "when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread", do you think anyone actually said that to Him or do you think it's some made up story?

Was the axe head that sank to the bottom of the Jordan and then floated back up a literal event? Yes. But does it also reveal something deeper spiritually? Yes again.

Did manna literally fall from heaven to feed the Israelites in the wilderness? Yes. But was it also pointing to something far greater spiritually? Of course.

So when Christ fasted forty days and nights in the wilderness — was that a literal event? Yes. But does the fasting, the wilderness, and the number forty all point to a deeper spiritual truth? Without question, yes!

Why are you ducking around the point I'm making about the existence of Satan? If that was a literal event then why would you deny that Jesus literally talked to someone called "the devil" and "Satan", as is recorded in scripture?

Maybe it’s time you grew up, put down your carnal coffee, and started smelling the spiritual brew.

LOL. You really need to start taking your own advice. And you need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[David in NJ]

???

Ezekiel chapter 28

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can you provide passages from Scripture saying Satan is a fallen angel?

Who do you think Satan is? Scripture clearly speaks of Satan as an individual being. He was talking to God about Job in this passage...

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

Also, we have scripture that describes Jesus talking to Satan when He fasted in the desert for 40 days and nights. Who do you think Jesus was talking to, if not a fallen angel named Satan?

Jesus talked about "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41)? Who do you think "the devil and his angels" are?

Revelation 20:10 talks about Satan being cast into the lake of fire to experience eternal torment. Who do you think that is referring to?