Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah
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For myself, I consider my experiences to be remedial, there to strengthen my faith. God tells us, "our walk is by faith, and not by sight". So the things He gives us to experience, imo, are there to strenghten our faith, not to replace it.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
"behold, are you saying that God is not going to give anyone a supernatural experience'.
No, im not saying that.
But here is the reality check...>He gives them to Christians .......not religious pretenders.
God will not avial Himself on the supernatural level to someone who denies God's Gift of Salvation that is forgiveness of sin through The Cross of Christ, and "imputed righteousness"., that is "The Gift of Salvation".
Believe it.
In fact the person's salvation is in queston when they deny and publically dismiss the very means that God offers it as we've seen happen as posted on this Thread and not just this one.
Lets say you are a Christian, but you have no correct understanding of WHO and WHY and WHERE, .....regarding Salvation.
Now, God is not going to show up and give you experiences, when your very walk with Him, is corrupted by your wrong faith.
He would only try to bring you into the revelation that God's Grace is The Cross of Christ.
He has to get you to the BASIC understanding of who is your Salvation before He is going to use you at all as a ministry.
An example?
God is not going to call someone supernaturally to be an Evangelist, when the person does not perfectly understand The Gospel., as If God did that, then He's just chosen a deceived person to go out and deceive others.
Not going to happen.
Do you want a ministry?
Do you want to see God's wonders?
Then you have to get your Faith correct, and get past Hebrews 6:1 failed Christianity, that is all about trying to DO Christianity, by your self effort.
Reader....Christianity, as pure discipleship is God's Grace.........through you.
Something for the bible student..
When Jesus called Paul.....Paul didnt go that very day to the First Church of the Self Important and take the Mic and demand the Pulpit.
NO.
He went into the desert, and Jesus met Him for 3 yrs, and Paul was enabled and taught and taught....and after this SCHOOL in God's Spirit, Paul was let loose... and started building churches and writing letters.
See that?
Paul had to learn some BIBLE, He had to get his THEOLOGY correct, before God sent Him out..
And you are the same., Reader.
Get you FAITH right, get your mind renewed.....and give God your all and He'll take you from there, to situations, places, revelations, and experiences.
No, im not saying that.
But here is the reality check...>He gives them to Christians .......not religious pretenders.
God will not avial Himself on the supernatural level to someone who denies God's Gift of Salvation that is forgiveness of sin through The Cross of Christ, and "imputed righteousness"., that is "The Gift of Salvation".
Believe it.
In fact the person's salvation is in queston when they deny and publically dismiss the very means that God offers it as we've seen happen as posted on this Thread and not just this one.
Lets say you are a Christian, but you have no correct understanding of WHO and WHY and WHERE, .....regarding Salvation.
Now, God is not going to show up and give you experiences, when your very walk with Him, is corrupted by your wrong faith.
He would only try to bring you into the revelation that God's Grace is The Cross of Christ.
He has to get you to the BASIC understanding of who is your Salvation before He is going to use you at all as a ministry.
An example?
God is not going to call someone supernaturally to be an Evangelist, when the person does not perfectly understand The Gospel., as If God did that, then He's just chosen a deceived person to go out and deceive others.
Not going to happen.
Do you want a ministry?
Do you want to see God's wonders?
Then you have to get your Faith correct, and get past Hebrews 6:1 failed Christianity, that is all about trying to DO Christianity, by your self effort.
Reader....Christianity, as pure discipleship is God's Grace.........through you.
Something for the bible student..
When Jesus called Paul.....Paul didnt go that very day to the First Church of the Self Important and take the Mic and demand the Pulpit.
NO.
He went into the desert, and Jesus met Him for 3 yrs, and Paul was enabled and taught and taught....and after this SCHOOL in God's Spirit, Paul was let loose... and started building churches and writing letters.
See that?
Paul had to learn some BIBLE, He had to get his THEOLOGY correct, before God sent Him out..
And you are the same., Reader.
Get you FAITH right, get your mind renewed.....and give God your all and He'll take you from there, to situations, places, revelations, and experiences.
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And I believe at times to manifest Christ, His glory, depending on what the experience is. Sometimes it is to communicate a message, like with a vision. Jesus slipped through grasping hands miraculously and I have heard of missionaries experiencing similar when they were in danger. There can be many different kinds of experiences for many different reasons, I believe.
I completely agree! I don't limit what God may do in any of our lives.
Having already given us His Beloved Son there is nothing good that God will withhold from us. But I'll say this, He can be very surprising in things He does!
Much love!
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@Episkopos
I was glad to see that Madame Guyon (pg 64, #1272) sees no contradiction between imputed righteousness and the need to continue "filling up that which is behind" essentially, and continue going on to perfection/holiness, because I see no contradiction either. Israel wasn't left to rest on her laurels after leaving Egypt and crossing the Red Sea, but were kept following the pillar and cloud. So we must keep following as well to take possession of what has already been given to us, as it were.. If some choose to rest on their laurels and live life to themselves after being saved, that is on them. People may do that, or be tempted to be like that, or do "Christian" things that seemeth right to them but are apart from God's will and wrongly motivated..... and this is why we have the instructions, admonitions and warnings of scripture, to provoke, inspire and encourage us to deny our will and do His will in following Him .
I was glad to see that Madame Guyon (pg 64, #1272) sees no contradiction between imputed righteousness and the need to continue "filling up that which is behind" essentially, and continue going on to perfection/holiness, because I see no contradiction either. Israel wasn't left to rest on her laurels after leaving Egypt and crossing the Red Sea, but were kept following the pillar and cloud. So we must keep following as well to take possession of what has already been given to us, as it were.. If some choose to rest on their laurels and live life to themselves after being saved, that is on them. People may do that, or be tempted to be like that, or do "Christian" things that seemeth right to them but are apart from God's will and wrongly motivated..... and this is why we have the instructions, admonitions and warnings of scripture, to provoke, inspire and encourage us to deny our will and do His will in following Him .
Behold
Well-Known Member
She does not teach this "holiness" as the believer trying to do it.
She teaches that the fruit of God's Grace, is Holiness.
What Legalists like the incredibly vain one on this forum falsely teach, is that the person is to try to DO Holiness, and that is not possible.
Holiness is a FRUIT of the Spirit.......its a fruit of God's Grace....and the spiritual truth is.....= we bear fruit.......not try to cause it by self effort.
Chritianity is entirely Spiritual.......Its God in us, transforming us.......its not us trying to conform ourselves.
Its us as a vessel, and God is working through us.......bearing HIS Fruit, that is our Holiness and Sanctification.
Religioius people both saved and unsaved.... try to do that as self effort.........and it can't be done.
Paul teaches that we DIE To Self effort. .....and allow God's Grace to become our power that produces the fruit that is Holiness.
Gods GRACE is the ROOT.....and Holiness is the FRUIT being produced in us as our discipleship.
I have been reading Romans 5-8 once again and in no way Paul fell from grace in Romans 7 as @Episkopos claimed.
Rom 5, 6 and 8 are about grace, victory over sin.
In Romans 7 Paul describes the period when he was under the Law, fighting windmills.
Rom 5, 6 and 8 are about grace, victory over sin.
In Romans 7 Paul describes the period when he was under the Law, fighting windmills.
Romans 7:14-20 KJV
14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Twice Paul says here, "it is no more I that do it, but sin that lives in me".
"No more" refers to the end of a series. It was Paul that was the sinner, now it's not. It is no more I that do it. Sin lives in his flesh, the flesh man is the sinner. The spirit man is not.
Romans 7:21-25 KJV
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
You may be interested in this:
Mind of the Spirit, and the mind of the flesh
I posted this some years ago, and here it is again . . . Mind of the Spirit / Mind of the Flesh The question was recently asked, “What is the soul?”, and, along with this, “What is it that gets regenerated when someone is born again?” I am hoping this study may contribute towards answering...
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Much love!
I think the scripture is clear that the righteousness of God is imputed to us by grace through faith, by favor that is unmerited. if God does the work then He gets the glory. If man does the work then he gets the glory. That being said, I really struggle with positive confession braggarts going around and arrogantly proclaiming "I am the righteousness of God!" I disagree with Epi on several points but I think he is correct in saying it's God that does the imputation and not by our own "positive confession"
It is indeed God that justifies, not people who read bibles looking for self-affirmation. So that is one level of deception that many have swallowed...that goes DIRECTLY against humility and the fear of the Lord.
Another layer of the deception onion is that God imputes His own righteousness to people. That's not in the bible. God imputes righteousness on the humble and God-fearing. Humans can do this..by NOT being filled with pride because of a religious dogmatism.
Was the Publican declared to be righteous by God as if he was as righteous as God? No, he was a sinner. God saw that he saw himself accurately by being ashamed, which is something fully out of the ability of the pretenders. God sees righteousness as seeing things properly...doing what is right. Did you sin...then go to God in humility and repentance. God receives and forgives a person with a contrite heart. Righteousness on that level is like a person who watches a goal line to see if the ball or puck crosses the line. Like a goal judge. Did the ball cross the line? Then a goal was scored. To accurately claim the goal is a RIGHTEOUS call. A man who does that consistently would be seen as a righteous referee...of course that's not in our language usage. But that's how God sees the righteous. They DO what is right to the utmost of their own ability...just like Job, or Abel, or Cornelius.
Being deemed to be righteous by God is based on humility...the meek shall inherit the earth.
To be MADE righteous is by anointing...coming under God's covering. This is by God Himself overshadowing the believer causing him to walk where He is...in the kingdom realm. Under God's righteousness there is NO sin. In Him is no sin. This is a gift of grace through faith...to walk as Jesus walked without spot or wrinkle of sin having being atoned by the blood of Christ into being cleansed of ALL unrighteousness.
There are 2 levels of righteousness, In Is. 53 it says..."yatsdik tsadik" or..."He will make the righteous righteous". Or..."He will justify the just". He gives grace to the humble.
Of course self-styled "experts" here who even bother to look at the text will say...that's not what my bible says..surface seekers.
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hos 10:12
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Yes, Rom 7 is Paul teaching us that His Lawkeeping and His trying to be holy.....is what He described in Phil 3, as "DUNG">
He is teaching us that its all about God's Grace., or as Paul said....>>....
= "and be found in HIM not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—........
the righteousess that COMES FROM GOD"..
the righteousess that COMES FROM GOD
the righteousess that COMES FROM GOD
the righteousess that COMES FROM GOD
"THE GIFT of Righteousness".........."imputed Righteousness" FROM GOD.
So, when you are dealing with a DENIER of this.......who says that this (Paul's Gospel) is "DELUSION">. then you are dealing with a Chief of Heretics.. who actually is teaching that God's Grace, is NOT REAL., and that is the devil's work.
Is the second level of righteousness best described as holy? Since it surpasses the first level of righteousness
I have always loved this verse.
Attachments
Behold
Well-Known Member
Holiness is not a "level".
Holiness is the spiritual fruit of being "made righteous".
God's Grace is the root of Salvaiton, and Holiness is the spiritual fruit of Salvation.
God's Grace, "imputed righteousness" = produces Holiness in the believer.
Yes. Who shall ascend My Holy hill (Zion)? Be holy for I am holy. Jesus is our sanctification...holiness. In Him we become partakers of HIS holiness.
It shows the relationship between what WE can do do be accepted and be shown MERCY....and what God can do in cleansing us from ALL sin. By grace through faith.
Behold
Well-Known Member
"In Christ" the Christians have become ....= "The RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD.........IN Christ"..., as Paul's verse teaches.
The only thing a sinner can to to be accepted by Holy God is to be Forgiven of the sin, and given "imputed righteousness" , and then born again.
See The Cross of Christ for that to happen, or it will never.
Behold
Well-Known Member
God's "Justification" is "by Faith"......."Justification by Faith".
Faith in Whom?
A.) "All who believe in Jesus, shall be SAVED"... = forgiven all sin and "Made righteouses"., by "The GIFT of Righteousness"... Paul teaches.
Your gospel is Satanic.
Take if from Paul......in Galatians 1:8
Or just read this... carefully, that Paul teaches.
"""and be found in HIM, not having a righteousness of my own ....
Berean Standard Bible
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness ....
King James Bible
And be found in HIM, not having mine own righteousness,......
The only Righteouness that God "sees" is "The imputed Rightousness of of GOD"..........Paul teaches.
To be "Made rightous" is by receivng "The Gift of Rightousness" that is the "imputed rightesouness" of God.
Thre is only the "impute Righteousness of God'.......and thats not a "level"....that is God's "Gift of Righteouness" that is the "imputed righteousness of God".
Welcome to : Salvation
Your OT verse is Old Covenant.
God's Salvation is New Covenant and exists as The Cross of Christ and ""Imputed Righteousness."""
Yes, but we do have a part to play in the choices we make, our willingness and cooperation with the Lord. etc Everything isn't automatic per se because we are sentient beings and not puppets. To my way of thinking we are aiming to be fully yielded/surrendered/consecrated to the Lord....that is the goal in this life. And there is the learning and growing factor on our way there.
The word says we are to provoke one another to good works. I see the word of God in many places as doing that too...provoking, prodding, motivating us to keep seeking His kingdom and righteousness, ie, to manifest it.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Salvation is a Gift from God.
So, that ends trying to do it.
And then.......once we have God's Salvation . = "The Gift of Righteouess"........we being our lifelong Discipleship.
Our Discipleship is where we do this.....>"Present your body as a living sacrifice to God, as your reasonable Service".
"Service" is our discipleship. Its what we do becasue we have recevied God's "Gift of Salvation".
And there is plenty of service to be done.... including...>"renew your mind".....and "study (the word) to show yourself approved unto God".
The NT says that Jesus went about doing good works........and that is what we are to do......as that is such a huge part of our discipleship.
I agree with you 100% here, but I'd have to make clear, this doesn't have anything to do with whether we are justified or not being baptized into Jesus Christ. That is, our salvation is in Christ alone, we are not able to effect any good work that matches what Jesus did, as though we add alongside Him.
I believe salvation is permanent, and happens in one way, that we are baptized into Jesus Christ, dying with Him, to rise with Him into our new life.
Yes the one who argues with us all claims that this is the starting gate, "a taste", but I truly pity the man who thinks they have to somehow add something Jesus did not include. It's a legalistic works trip, and it destroys lives, leaving people angry, bitter, desolate, while clinging to the remaining veneer of their beliefs.
Hopefully such a one has "merely" suffered from a fall from grace, a broken faith, and though while shipwrecked, is still the Lord's. God help such a one who continues out of a fear of impending judgment and destruction, while not actually in Christ! It's a miserable way to live. And because this is all from flesh, there is no fruitfulness. The saved one in this state is the one who will pass through the fire to find nothing but ashes after.
Romans 6:3-9 EMTV
3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be in the likeness of His resurrection;
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, so that the body of sin may be done away with, that we should no longer serve sin.
7) For he who has died has been justified from sin.
8) But if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live together with Him,
9) knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, no longer dies. Death is no longer master over Him.
Verse 7 is variously translated "set free from sin", "freed from sin", I quoted from the EMTV because it shows the word used there, "justified".
Apo is to be understood as "moving away from". It was close, now it's far. There is another way to translate justified, that is righteous-ized, made, rendered, declared righteous.
And of course this agrees with Ephesians 4:24, that we are created patterned after God, in righteousness and true holiness.
Much love!
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