What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?

[Aunty Jane]

I didn't think it. I quoted it.

That’s basically the problem, Jack…..you don’t “think” at all…you just parrot what you have been told….your responses prove that you are not a Bible student with any depth of actual knowledge at all.

Jesus is never wrong…..but humans frequently are….”fire” in the Bible is used to symbolize destruction.
You don’t “torment” someone in a “fire”…..it consumes them…..they “perish”.
Look up the meaning of that word, Jack.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16 KJV)

The two outcomes are plainly stated…..”everlasting life” is contrasted with “perishing”…..everlasting death. Those in Gehenna (not hades) will never see life again.

 

[Muna]

Here is mouth fire, lets ask @Jack what he thinks

Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts,

Jerm 5:14 Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

The same fire devoureth "their enemies" in Rev 11:5

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

He must "in this manner" be killed (and as by these prophets in that manner)

Similiarly here (being slain/killed) in the same mouth

Hosea 6:10 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth

Is the fire in Jerm 5:14 the same sort of fire that is shown in Rev 11:5 and is the killing the same and the devouring the same?

 

[Jack]

That’s basically the problem, Jack…..you don’t “think” at all…you just parrot what you have been told….

I parrot Jesus. You parrot Satan's GB.

your responses prove that you are not a Bible student with any depth of actual knowledge at all.

Prove it. lol

Jesus is never wrong…..but humans frequently are….”fire” in the Bible is used to symbolize destruction.

Symbolic, a JW FAV when they don't like what God said!

You don’t “torment” someone in a “fire”…..it consumes them…..they “perish”.
Look up the meaning of that word, Jack.

Your Kingdom Hall opinions do not overrule Jesus!

Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16 KJV)

The two outcomes are plainly stated…..”everlasting life” is contrasted with “perishing”…..everlasting death. Those in Gehenna (not hades) will never see life again.

Everlasting death? lol

You don't even read your own messages.

 

[Keiw]

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Are not death and hell destroyed in the end?

[

Yes--hades is destroyed- hades = the grave.
Lake of fire is the second death= permanent death-rev 21:8

 

[Keiw]

I do not think that verse means what you think it means. [/princessbride]

Yes the dead know nothing at all. All thought stops. kind of hard to feel torture when one cannot think. It was symbolic, those in darkness teach it literal.

 

[Jack]

Yes--hades is destroyed- hades = the grave.
Lake of fire is the second death= permanent death-rev 21:8

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Muna]

Yes--hades is destroyed- hades = the grave.
Lake of fire is the second death= permanent death-rev 21:8

But if death is a thing which thrown into the lake of fire (which is called the second death) than those delivered out of death (before it was destroyed) would themselves have no more death. Because they do get delivered out of death "first" and then death gets thrown into the Lake of fire (before anyone else follows). And so how would their death be permanent (so to speak) when the death they abode in was destroyed first, because if you destroy death first than how can you die?

See how you can try and do a little work around with this?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here is mouth fire, lets ask @Jack what he thinks

Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts,

Jerm 5:14 Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

The same fire devoureth "their enemies" in Rev 11:5

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

He must "in this manner" be killed (and as by these prophets in that manner)

Similiarly here (being slain/killed) in the same mouth

Hosea 6:10 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth

Is the fire in Jerm 5:14 the same sort of fire that is shown in Rev 11:5 and is the killing the same and the devouring the same?

How about the one in Jeremiah 7:31, where God is condemning Israel for sacrificing their children in the fire to the false god, Molech?



”And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.” (KJV)

Burning their children alive in a fire….something God never “commanded”, and that did not ‘come into his heart’ to do such a thing….not to their children or his own.

 

[Muna]

How about the one in Jeremiah 7:31, where God is condemning Israel for sacrificing their children in the fire to the false god, Molech?

View attachment 71459

”And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.” (KJV)

Burning their children alive in a fire….something God never “commanded”, and that did not ‘come into his heart’ to do such a thing….not to their children or his own.

I agree, and there is fire that does not burn

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Then there is a fire that burns someone and someone even know about it

Isaiah 42:25 Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.

 

[Jack]

It's really sad watching Satan's messengers attack Jesus' SEVERAL perfectly clear warnings about the EVERLASTING fire!

Hell will be filled with BILLIONS of humans who deny Hell!

And usually they also deny that Jesus is God of the Bible. Satan has stolen their Savior from them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But if death is a thing which thrown into the lake of fire (which is called the second death) than those delivered out of death (before it was destroyed) would themselves have no more death. Because they do get delivered out of death "first" and then death gets thrown into the Lake of fire (before anyone else follows). And so how would their death be permanent (so to speak) when the death they abode in was destroyed first, because if you destroy death first than how can you die?

See how you can try and do a little work around with this?

Identifying what these words mean is important…..There is a ‘first death’ that is inherited from Adam….due to his disobedience he lost his perfection and passed that imperfection onto all of his children. God called it “sin” which is an archery term meaning to “miss the mark”. Burdened with sin, we are no longer perfect.

Mortals die the first death….and they are redeemed from the grave (sheol/hades) by Christ’s sacrifice (John 5:28-29).…..but the “second death” (Gehenna) is one that is permanent….a whole other place. Nothing comes out of “Gehenna” alive, and nothing thrown in there will ever be seen again… “death and hades” are the the things that resulted from Adam’s sin….but the “second death” is never said to be destroyed because it remains as the receptacle (figuratively) to remind all of God’s intelligent creation that abusing their free will, will have serious consequences.

The three rebels in Eden that started all this, were created perfect….they were not created with a sin nature, and so had no excuse to disobey their God or to step out of alignment with with the purpose for which they were created.…to fill the earth with their children and to “subdue” it….extending the boundaries of their paradise home until the whole earth was like the garden of Eden. They had a wonderful future ahead of them…..

But free will wasn’t without restrictions or limits….so when God’s Kingdom brings all humanity back to God and his first purpose for us here on this earth is restored, then Adamic death and it’s receptacle (hades) will be eliminated…..but the “lake of fire” remains for any who in the future, might want to emulate satan or the first humans……we have on record, what happens when disobedience takes place….so we would never want to go there again…..it was an object lesson with an important purpose….to create precedents for all time to come.
God knows what he is doing…..we just have to understand what it is….in the big picture.

 

[Muna]

Identifying what these words mean is important…..There is a ‘first death’ that is inherited from Adam….due to his disobedience he lost his perfection and passed that imperfection onto all of his children. God called it “sin” which is an archery term meaning to “miss the mark”. Burdened with sin, we are no longer perfect.

Mortals die the first death….and they are redeemed from the grave (sheol/hades) by Christ’s sacrifice (John 5:28-29).…..but the “second death” (Gehenna) is one that is permanent….a whole other place. Nothing comes out of “Gehenna” alive, and nothing thrown in there will ever be seen again… “death and hades” are the the things that resulted from Adam’s sin….but the “second death” is never said to be destroyed because it remains as the receptacle (figuratively) to remind all of God’s intelligent creation that abusing their free will, will have serious consequences.

The three rebels in Eden that started all this, were created perfect….they were not created with a sin nature, and so had no excuse to disobey their God or to step out of alignment with with the purpose for which they were created.…to fill the earth with their children and to “subdue” it….extending the boundaries of their paradise home until the whole earth was like the garden of Eden. They had a wonderful future ahead of them…..

But free will wasn’t without restrictions or limits….so when God’s Kingdom brings all humanity back to God and his first purpose for us here on this earth is restored, then Adamic death and it’s receptacle (hades) will be eliminated…..but the “lake of fire” remains for any who in the future, might want to emulate satan or the first humans……we have on record, what happens when disobedience takes place….so we would never want to go there again…..it was an object lesson with an important purpose….to create precedents for all time to come.
God knows what he is doing…..we just have to understand what it is….in the big picture.

How do you understand

Rev 20:10..."tormented day and night for ever and ever"

Because there are time periods set to torment here and there, and the scriptures can differentiate between these time periods

For example earlier in Rev 9:5 it says here

Rev 9:5 "that they should be tormented five months"

And again,

Rev 20:10 "tormented day and night for ever and ever"

What is the difference (in your understanding) between those being tormented for five months (in Rev 9:5) and those to be tormented day and night for ever and ever (in Rev 20:10) are there some that believe that is not to be taken literall, and if so how would that be justified?

And here we have the devil and his angels which deceiveth the whole world are cast into the earth here

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And these same being cast into the lake of fire as shown here

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But these cursed are cast into the same everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels also, as Jesus says,

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

These would be those not found in the book of life

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The interesting part is that the beast and the false prophet are there before the devil (and before any one else actually gets there).

I have to look at that some more.

 

[Wick Stick]

Yes the dead know nothing at all. All thought stops. kind of hard to feel torture when one cannot think. It was symbolic, those in darkness teach it literal.

Jack's error was one of basic grammar. The verse he quoted doesn't say everyone is tormented forever. It says that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are tormented forever. Nobody else is mentioned.

Whether the others can feel or not is irrelevant, because they're not even there.

 

[Jack]

Jack's error was one of basic grammar. The verse he quoted doesn't say everyone is tormented forever. It says that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are tormented forever. Nobody else is mentioned.

So you admit that eternal punishment is true!

Whether the others can feel or not is irrelevant, because they're not even there.

IOW you avoid Jesus' WARNINGS of the EVERLASTING fire like Satan!

 

[Jay Ross]

Genesis 2:17 tells us that if we sin, we will die the second death if we are judged to be unrighteous at the time of the GWTR time of judgement in the distant future.

Both Adam and Eve live to a good old age before they succumbed to their physical death like everybody else.

Now when they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, they knew that they had sinned against God and so they hid from God.

The second death is still a distant future outcome for all of the earth's sinners.

 

[St. SteVen]

Genesis 2:17 tells us that if we sin, we will die the second death if we are judged to be unrighteous at the time of the GWTR time of judgement in the distant future.

Was that clearly communicated to Adam?

Genesis 2:17 NIV
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

[

 

[Jay Ross]

Was that clearly communicated to Adam?

Genesis 2:17 NIV
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

[

My understanding of the Hebrew suggests that it should be paraphrased in this manner: -

Genesis 2:15-17: - 15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die the second death."

 

[St. SteVen]

My understanding of the Hebrew suggests that it should be paraphrased in this manner: -

Genesis 2:15-17: - 15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die the second death."

Does that really work?

Lexical Summary

muth: To die, to kill, to be dead​

Original Word: מוּת
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: muwth
Pronunciation: mooth
Phonetic Spelling: (mooth)
KJV: X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy(-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro(-mancer), X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in (no) wise
NASB: die, died, dead, put to death, surely be put to death, dies, killed
Word Origin: [a primitive root]

1. (literally or figuratively) to die
2. (causatively) to kill

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
crying, be dead body, man, one, put to, worthy of death, destroyer,
A primitive root: to die (literally or figuratively); causatively, to kill -- X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy(-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro(-mancer), X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in (no) wise.

[

 

[Waiting on him]

Was that clearly communicated to Adam?

Genesis 2:17 NIV
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

[

I would assume that the fruit on the tree that gave them knowledge of good and evil may have been,,,, love, peace, temperance, joy,,etc?

 

[Waiting on him]

Was that clearly communicated to Adam?

Genesis 2:17 NIV
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

[

And become as us? Like Jesus did?