What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?

[St. SteVen]

I guess it depends how you understand it, or what you're referring to.

If you mean an alternate dimension, you could say that.
If you mean some sort of space where all our thoughts come together (thinking of Jung's collective unconscious here), you could call it a mindscape, or maybe astral plane (borrowing terms from comic books lol).
If you mean an essence of things (in the Platonic sense), then the best word seems to be pattern.

I'm thinking of the way the Kingdom of God intersected our physical earthly realm.
And also of the manifestations of the Spirit that were poured out at Pentecost and beyond.

We need a sub-forum where all jargon is banned. Sticky topic with a list of words banned there.

LOL
That would be very interesting. Leave it open to non-Christians.

But Paul does tell us,

1 Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's a good point.

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[St. SteVen]

Have you ever considered that maybe you’ve been given a false narrative, just maybe this story isn’t at all about the literal first man and woman, maybe it’s a story about something that will take place hundreds of years after it is penned?

I'm torn on whether it is literal or figurative.

What affect is there on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner? Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine? Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion. Send help! -...

www.christianityboard.com

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[St. SteVen]

Wouldn't life on the new earth be considered an afterlife?
If so, how can it be said that there is no afterlife?

[

 

[Keiw]

I posit that they died spiritually that day.
They were not immortal/eternal beings that became mortal in that day.
On the other hand, we are immortal beings. An afterlife awaits us all.
Many aspects to explore on this.

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, ...
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

[

No we are not immortal beings. The righteous are still living in Gods view, this death is temporary, the 2nd death( lake of fire) is permanent.
All who get grace=sin, that is why its grace. Only those living now to do Jesus' Fathers will get grace( Matt 7:21)= OT-NT-learned, applied and obeyed. The wise study carefully the whole bible.

 

[St. SteVen]

the 2nd death( lake of fire) is permanent.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Are not death and hell destroyed in the end?

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[Wick Stick]

To discern spiritually is the ability to understand and perceive spiritual things as taught by the Spirit 1 Cr 2:13

Spiritually,

1. spiritually: i.e. by the aid of the Holy Spirit

Discerned

1. examine or judge
   
   1. to investigate, examine, enquire into, scrutinise, sift, question
      
      1. specifically in a forensic sense of a judge to hold an investigation
      2. to interrogate, examine the accused or witnesses
   2. to judge of, estimate, determine (the excellence or defects of any person or thing)

Same word for judgeth all things here

1 Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

"By the aid of the Holy Spirit" boils down to "God told me so." Yes?

I see this...

Metaphoric​

adjective​

1. expressing one thing in terms normally denoting another
   metaphoric language

A metaphor is a figure of speech that asserts one thing is another to highlight a similarity, allowing complex spiritual truths to be conveyed in relatable terms.Unlike a simile, which uses "like" or "as," a metaphor directly states that one thing is another

Like this:

Ezekiel 37: 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

The metaphor of Israel = dead gets extended in this passage, to include graves and resurrection. But the definition of that deadness is given here - it occurs when the people of Israel are cut off from their people. When that happens they become "LoAmmi" (not my people), according to the prophet Hosea.

This is what Jesus is referring back to when He says,

Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. (Luke 9:60)

Even though this verse doesn't explicitly equate the dead with something else, it's still a metaphor, because it refers back to a metaphor with which it expects the reader/hearer to have familiarity. The dead here are not physically dead, but they are cut off from their people - they're LoAmmi. This is just one example; there are many places in the NT that refer to the dead in this sense.

I do not see the word "spiritually" written in 1 Ti 5:6 I see that as showing something "spiritually speaking" but not the word in particular

1 Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Unless you are thinking of another verse where the word is

My fault. I wrote "spiritually" where I meant to question the definition of "dead." The old brain is not brain-a-lating so well.

 

[Wick Stick]

I'm thinking of the way the Kingdom of God intersected our physical earthly realm.

Well that's mostly about authority. God has it. People recognize His authority and obey. He empowers those people, and they become his delegates. He rules and reigns through those people. They become his hands and feet in the world.

Is that a fair description of what you're thinking about?

And also of the manifestations of the Spirit that were poured out at Pentecost and beyond.

Speaking in a tongue, healings, raising the dead?

 

[Jack]

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Are not death and hell destroyed in the end?

No they are not! Have you ever opened a Bible?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
I'm thinking of the way the Kingdom of God intersected our physical earthly realm.

Well that's mostly about authority. God has it. People recognize His authority and obey. He empowers those people, and they become his delegates. He rules and reigns through those people. They become his hands and feet in the world.

Is that a fair description of what you're thinking about?

That, but mostly the Kingdom authority for supernatural acts.
Casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead.

St. SteVen said:
And also of the manifestations of the Spirit that were poured out at Pentecost and beyond.

Speaking in a tongue, healings, raising the dead?

Yes. I see these as spiritual, as opposed to physical.

- Physical = natural
- Spiritual = supernatural

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[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Are not death and hell destroyed in the end?

No they are not! Have you ever opened a Bible?

Here you go.

Revelation 20:14 KJV
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

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[Muna]

"By the aid of the Holy Spirit" boils down to "God told me so." Yes?

Like this:

Ezekiel 37: 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

The metaphor of Israel = dead gets extended in this passage, to include graves and resurrection. But the definition of that deadness is given here - it occurs when the people of Israel are cut off from their people. When that happens they become "LoAmmi" (not my people), according to the prophet Hosea.

This is what Jesus is referring back to when He says,

Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. (Luke 9:60)

Even though this verse doesn't explicitly equate the dead with something else, it's still a metaphor, because it refers back to a metaphor with which it expects the reader/hearer to have familiarity. The dead here are not physically dead, but they are cut off from their people - they're LoAmmi. This is just one example; there are many places in the NT that refer to the dead in this sense.

My fault. I wrote "spiritually" where I meant to question the definition of "dead." The old brain is not brain-a-lating so well.

No problem, I get old brain too, I am not a youngin;

Going back a little, you said,

I have a confession - I don't like the word spiritual.

Which has to do with things of the Spirit, but he also said,

1 Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And so if they could not recieve things of the Spirit then he could not speak unto these as he could those who were able
to receive the same, saying

1 Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ

You responded,

Sure. Now define "spiritually discerned" for us in common English.

And so I posted the following definitions

To discern naturally is

To discern naturally is to see by that, whether its by the eye or by ones understanding. To perceive and/or recognize.

And to discern spiritually is

To discern spiritually is the ability to understand and perceive spiritual things as taught by the Spirit 1 Cr 2:13

And broke up the words

Spiritually,
spiritually: i.e. by the aid of the Holy Spirit

Discerned,
examine or judge
to investigate, examine, enquire into, scrutinise, sift, question
specifically in a forensic sense of a judge to hold an investigation
to interrogate, examine the accused or witnesses
to judge of, estimate, determine (the excellence or defects of any person or thing)

And an example here

1 Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

To all of that, you ask,

"By the aid of the Holy Spirit" boils down to "God told me so." Yes?

Whereas I would say,

Not really, especially between people, because there is the case that if you might express something you think you know by saying "God told me so" and I could say the same, or I could say in contrast, I don't believe you, you are lying (God having also told me so) when both you and I could be lying and just saying "God told me so" to express what we each believe naturally so (of our own selves) or even lying to ourselves between one another in the natural man walking by our own spirits (not His Spirit) so no I don't think it boils down to just that. But it doesn't negate it either.

John writes,

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And Paul writes

1 Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So He teaches us in comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You gave another example in deadness that is not naturally speaking, two women can mean more than two women as shown us in
Sarah and Hagar are an example

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants...

Which are the things Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Edit: left out a word, "negate"

 

[St. SteVen]

1 Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ

That's a good comparison.

Spiritual versus carnal (fleshly)

Galatians 5:17 NIV
For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.
They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[a] you want.

Romans 8:5 NIV
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires;
but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

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[Jack]

St. SteVen said:
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Are not death and hell destroyed in the end?

No they are not! THEY MERGE!

Here you go.

Revelation 20:14 KJV
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

Fire does not destroy fire!

This is the second death.

"Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible. NEVER!

Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Notice how stevie ignores this verse like a messenger of the Devil, trying to lead people to Hell!

 

[Wick Stick]

"By the aid of the Holy Spirit" boils down to "God told me so." Yes?

Whereas I would say,

Not really, especially between people, because there is the case that if you might express something you think you know by saying "God told me so" and I could say the same, or I could say in contrast, I don't believe you, you are lying (God having also told me so) when both you and I could be lying and just saying "God told me so" to express what we each believe naturally so (of our own selves) or even lying to ourselves between one another in the natural man walking by our own spirits (not His Spirit) so no I don't think it boils down to just that. But it doesn't negate it either.

I agree that there's likely some issues that will arise when people share (what they perceive to be) revelation they've received from God. Notwithstanding those issues, if there is no revelation from God, then what are we even doing here? There needs to be a place for that in Christianity. I don't want to throw that out (as some have, to their detriment).

John writes,

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And Paul writes

1 Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So He teaches us in comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You gave another example in deadness that is not naturally speaking, two women can mean more than two women as shown us in
Sarah and Hagar are an example

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants...

Which are the things Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Edit: left out a word, "negate"

The example I gave was an extended metaphor that sort of runs throughout the Bible. I think it's perfectly understandable, even without divine assistance. It falls within the original meaning intended by the author. As long as one is familiar with the source material, they should understand the allusion.

I think your example of Paul explaining Sarah and Hagar in terms of types and antitypes is a better example of spiritual discernment. It's unlikely that anyone would come to Paul's idea by reading the story in Genesis. It requires a leap of inspiration.

Frankly, if you or I took something portrayed as a historical event, and used it as a pattern for describing the world today, people would seriously question that logic. Probably rightfully so. That wouldn't mean it was wrong. But it certainly falls outside of natural thinking. I guess that's the point.

 

[Wick Stick]

Fire does not destroy fire!

Fire consumes its fuel, and the fire goes out when there's no more fuel.

If the fire is everlasting, that implies that the source of fuel is unending.

 

[Muna]

The example I gave was an extended metaphor that sort of runs throughout the Bible. I think it's perfectly understandable, even without divine assistance. It falls within the original meaning intended by the author. As long as one is familiar with the source material, they should understand the allusion.

The dead you showed simply did not mean physically dead (and so not a carnal truth) a spiritual one, but source material which came by the Holy Spirit is the divine assistance between the comparisons made.

Like you know its not speaking of physically dead people, but a deadness that is not that.

I think your example of Paul explaining Sarah and Hagar in terms of types and antitypes is a better example of spiritual discernment. It's unlikely that anyone would come to Paul's idea by reading the story in Genesis. It requires a leap of inspiration.

Exactly, the natural man would see two women, two kids and Abraham

Paul calls the two an allegory

1. to speak allegorically or in a figure

God did say here,

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

And Gen 20:7 Tells us the Abraham was a prophet obviously, so his things (such as the two women, or two sons) can be used in a figure (or allegorically) or similitudes by the same

For example, Melchizedek

Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

There are others, but they are touched upon back there

Frankly, if you or I took something portrayed as a historical event, and used it as a pattern for describing the world today, people would seriously question that logic. Probably rightfully so. That wouldn't mean it was wrong. But it certainly falls outside of natural thinking. I guess that's the point.

I agree, Abraham had Sarah a side hustle two kids (the end) nothing else to see here

 

[Jack]

Fire consumes its fuel, and the fire goes out when there's no more fuel.

If the fire is everlasting, that implies that the source of fuel is unending.

You're saying Jesus is wrong???

Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm thinking of the way the Kingdom of God intersected our physical earthly realm.

If the fall had not taken place, would the kingdom of God have ever “intersected” our physical, earthly realm?
What was God’s original purpose for his earthly creation in the first place? What role did humans have here?

Yahweh had a complete spiritual family in heaven long before he brought forth his earthly creation…..and, only when humans were created did one angelic son push the boundaries of his authority and defect from the Sovereignty of his Creator, in order to create his own?
What has this “intersection” meant for us earth bound mortals?

mostly the Kingdom authority for supernatural acts.
Casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead.

Again, were these “supernatural acts” carried out for a reason? Would they have become necessary if sin had not entered into the world, and caused the catastrophes that we have seen throughout human history?
Who was given world rulership as a result of his claims to be a better choice for the humans to obey? (Luke 4:5-7; 1 John 5:19) Who wanted to “be like God” and steal the humans away from their rightful Sovereign?

There were times when supernatural acts were performed to demonstrate God’s power as superior to that of mighty nations who served other gods……and in exposing the supernatural acts of the devil to be vastly inferior to that of the Creator.

The casting out of demons in the first century exposed the fact that these wicked spirits were only allowed to possess human beings to torment them. A command from Jesus, and they had no option but to obey his authority.

Do you see the pattern? If humans had remained obedient, no demonic interference would ever have plagued the human race.…meaning no need for Christ to come into the world….no need for a kingdom to bring us back to God….no need for God to demonstrate his superior strength to the opposers of his people…those nations who were already hijacked for that purpose, in taunting Israel’s God.

If the fall had never taken place, would there ever have been such a thing as a false god?…demonic possession?….or a level of evil in the world that is beyond the human capacity that God created in man.
Where do we get the word “inhuman”? What does it mean?

And also of the manifestations of the Spirit that were poured out at Pentecost and beyond.

Again…what did the manifestations of the spirit at Pentecost, accomplish?
Were they mindlessly babbling gibberish to one another? Or was it that visitors to Jerusalem for the Festival were able to hear the gospel preached in their own language? (Acts 2:4-11)

What did the healings and the resurrections, accomplish? These were foregleams of what was to come in the “new earth”… (2 Pet 3:13) but again, why were these things so important to God’s people?
They knew from their Scripture that God’s Kingdom was going to take control of the whole world and bring everything back into alignment with God’s first purpose for us here on earth where God designed us to “live forever”……a world without sickness, pain and disabilities will become our reality under the Kingdom’s rule…a world we should have had in the very beginning. A world where God’s Sovereignty was supreme and could never be challenged.

By allowing satan to challenge his Sovereignty, God gave his free willed children an opportunity to choose whom they would serve…..the one true God, or the false gods of this world, invented by his adversary.

Satan’s favorite trick is to masquerade as “an angel of light”…..pretending to be something he isn’t. Supernatural tricks will get people every time, especially if they believe that these are coming from God…..

It’s a true GOTCHA! for the uneducated and ignorant…..but not to those who really know “the only true God and the one he sent forth, Jesus Christ”…(John 17:3)

The big picture is lost in so many of these discussions……but it answers all of our “WHY” questions.

 

[Wick Stick]

You're saying Jesus is wrong???

Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I do not think that verse means what you think it means. [/princessbride]

 

[Jack]

I do not think that verse means what you think it means. [/princessbride]

I didn't think it. I quoted it.