Rapture ... soon?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, an unbiblical doctrine taught not through the Word of God but from the mind of man that has been perpetuated down the years, through the seasons, much like the doctrine of dispensationalism.

Actually, dispensationalism is a more modern invention from the mind of man, so that is not a good comparison in terms of comparing how long people have believed in each thing.

You've yet to prove I have not biblically defended the doctrine I have learned from the Word of God. It's like calling someone a Calvinist because they embrace the doctrines of Sovereign grace, without mentioning the doctrines of grace are in complete harmony with the Word of God. But labeling one a Calvinist is a way of maligning one's character. So, you hope to malign the character of TS and myself by saying our doctrine comes from the mind of TW.

I did not mention you at all when I talked about Tony Warren. I happen to know from previous posts that TS gets a lot of his views from TW. Not just about this topic, but others as well, such as his view that the 70th week has lasted for over 2,000 years so far (no gap, but they just think it's an undetermined, long length of time) and things like that.

There is something very strange about the reaction from both you and SI. I suspect it has something to do with how you two view the five points of Calvinism.

He is a Calvinist and I'm not, but Calvinism has absolutely nothing to do with this topic that we're discussing relating to Satan and angels.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Glad to explain it later tonight. I am going to prepare myself a dinner. :-)

Oh, I can't wait to see that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hold your horses, dude. Per previous post I have dinner to prepare and will response promptly. Chill.

I was not being impatient for you to answer. I was simply pointing out that you should not answer questions with questions. I am completely chill, bro.

 

[Muna]

Were the ordinaces of carnal or spiritual here

Col 2:14-15 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Because like the principalities and powers there are those created in both heaven and in the earth

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[Behold]

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

There is no 3rd coming of the Lord,

There is the Rapture and the 2nd Advent and the Millennial Reign of Christ.

So, i can show you something in a "Rapture verse" that proves it, but you have been taught not to be able to realize it.

Now, in 1 Thess 4, it partly says that.... "we who are alive and remain"..

Now notice this part........>"Shall meet the Lord In the Air". "in the CLOUDS"...

""In the AIR...........in the CLOUDS.""

See that?

Now notice this... the 2nd Advent does not happen in the "air" or in the "clouds"..
The 2nd Advent happens on the ground, on the earth, on "the Mount of Olives" where Jesus will be found.

So, we see that these 2 events are not the same.

 

[WPM]

There is no 3rd coming of the Lord,

There is the Rapture and the 2nd Advent and the Millennial Reign of Christ.

So, i can show you something in a "Rapture verse" that proves it, but you have been taught not to be able to realize it.

Now, in 1 Thess 4, it partly says that.... "we who are alive and remain"..

Now notice this part........>"Shall meet the Lord In the Air". "in the CLOUDS"...

""In the AIR...........in the CLOUDS.""

See that?

Now notice this... the 2nd Advent does not happen in the "air" or in the "clouds"..
The 2nd Advent happens on the ground, on the earth, on "the Mount of Olives" where Jesus will be found.

So, we see that these 2 events are not the same.

But Pretribs apply the word parousia to this 3rd event. That makes 2 future comings.

 

[WPM]

There is no 3rd coming of the Lord,

There is the Rapture and the 2nd Advent and the Millennial Reign of Christ.

So, i can show you something in a "Rapture verse" that proves it, but you have been taught not to be able to realize it.

Now, in 1 Thess 4, it partly says that.... "we who are alive and remain"..

Now notice this part........>"Shall meet the Lord In the Air". "in the CLOUDS"...

""In the AIR...........in the CLOUDS.""

See that?

Now notice this... the 2nd Advent does not happen in the "air" or in the "clouds"..
The 2nd Advent happens on the ground, on the earth, on "the Mount of Olives" where Jesus will be found.

So, we see that these 2 events are not the same.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai].”

Looking at the detail of this passage, and knowing the consistent teaching of Scripture, and allowing the repeated climactic descriptions of the second coming, we can be confident this is clearly a record of the impending and all-consummating return of Jesus!

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.” The Greek word parerchomai means to pass away or perish.

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away or pass away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

2 Peter 3:3-13 agrees with Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai] with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).

This is telling us that what we know as the earth (or where we live) “shall be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10) when Jesus comes as a thief. The ground is going to be “dissolved” (2 Peter 3:11).

The teaching of Jesus in Matthew 24:35-44 correlates with Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1 and proves that we are looking at the second coming: “Heaven and earth shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no 3rd coming of the Lord,

There is the Rapture and the 2nd Advent and the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Obviously, Jesus came for the first time long ago. Pre-tribs like you separate "the Rapture" from the 2nd Advent. But, Paul said when the rapture occurs it is a coming of the Lord. So, you can deny it all you want, but you do believe in a 2nd and 3rd coming of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

We agree that this passage is related to the rapture, but why do you deny that this is referring to the 2nd coming of the Lord when it specifically refer to "the coming of the Lord" in relation to the rapture?

So, i can show you something in a "Rapture verse" that proves it, but you have been taught not to be able to realize it.

Now, in 1 Thess 4, it partly says that.... "we who are alive and remain"..

Now notice this part........>"Shall meet the Lord In the Air". "in the CLOUDS"...

""In the AIR...........in the CLOUDS.""

See that?

Now notice this... the 2nd Advent does not happen in the "air" or in the "clouds"..
The 2nd Advent happens on the ground, on the earth, on "the Mount of Olives" where Jesus will be found.

So, we see that these 2 events are not the same.

Nonsense. How can Jesus continue down to the earth when He will be burning it with fire when He comes?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But Pretribs apply the word parousia to this 3rd event. That makes 2 future comings.

Everyone can see that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 specifically relates the rapture to "the coming of the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15), so any pre-trib who denies believing in a 2nd and 3rd coming of the Lord is being completely dishonest.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment;

Who do you think are the angels (Greek: angelos) that these verses are referring to? What was "the first estate" that they didn't keep and what was "their own habitation" that they left?

I will response to Jude 6 here.

Jude 1:6

• "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

The messengers (angels) God was talking about are human messengers of the kingdom of heaven (congregation) on Earth. Not in heaven! It is not about angelic beings. Within the kingdom there are two groups of messengers. One is chosen Elect of God and other are professed Christians (corporate believers) who are not truly born again and still have spirit of Satan. As Messengers of God, they didn't keep their first position (occupancy) that they had as the corporate children/sons of God. They instead forsook Him, leaving their lofty position as corporate sons to habituate with the Devil. "Habitation" is simply their dwelling place. They were once in the dwelling place of God (Mt 21:42-43), but have since left it, being blinded in chains.

Matthew 21:41-43

• "They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
• Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Spiritually speaking, they, as the corproate/external part of the Old Testament Congregation are no longer the representation of the Kingdom of God, no longer their residence (where they reside) dwelling with God, but have fallen away and forsaken Him. And the remanent (Peter, James, John, and all the followers etc.) continued into the New Testament congregation:

Ephesians 2:21-22

• "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
• In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

The church, assembly, or congregation of the Lord is built up of God a spiritual house, with some in it likened unto gold, silver, and precious stones (Elect), but also others likened unto wood, hay, and stubble (professed Christians). For example, a habitation or residence built both of truly saved people, and of those confessing but not really saved people. The unsaved who fall away from the habitation are sons of God who left their first estate! And it has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone losing their salvation because they were never truly saved but only lip serving God. The wood hay and stubble of this habitation NEVER were born of the Spirit to begin with. But their first position or first estate was that they were part of the corporate body of God until they were apostatized. Example:

2nd Peter 2:20-22

• "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
• For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
• But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

It's no great mystery how the people of the congregation of God can fall from their first estate, or what that first estate was. The text implies that instead of being content with the dignity assigned to them as Messengers and sons of God, in their lusts they aspired to higher and greater things and are thus set forth for an example, suffering the coming vengeance of God.

So ONCE AGAIN, I don't really "claim" it's messengers, the actual God-authored word [aggelos] is the word messenger. It actually means and is defined as "messenger." Angel is just an anglicized version of the Greek word that very literally "means" messenger. When we hear the word angel, we usually think of a heavenly being with wings that is not God or man. But such a meaning is not actually present in the ACTUAL Hebrew word [mal'ak] or the actual Greek word [aggelos].

So Jude 1:6 is talking about the false mesengers/ministers/envoys/prophets/ambassadors/teachers/servants OF SATAN that have fallen, will heavily populate hell. Of that you can be sure.

Actually, the whole context of Jude is of God comparing the falling away from God or apostasy of wicked people (not "angels", PEOPLE) of old, with the false prophets that would also come in among the church in the New Testament era and cause many to fall. He is using these "MEN" of His house (sons or children of God) of the past, as examples of the unfaithfulness that would come in among these Christians also (who are also men, not angels) and would bring upon "themselves" swift destruction. Just as it had these messengers of God of old. Which makes PERFECT sense if He is talking about His people of old. Context is always important. And the context is "clearly" not a discussion of angels, but of judgment on the unfaithful of His people.

2nd Peter 2:1-9

• "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
• And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
• And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
• For if God spared not the [messengers] that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
• And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
• And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
• And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
• (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
• The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"

The unjust are those reserved in chains of darkness (meaning blinded forever, no restoration). These are also men, not Angels. Moreover, angels are not an example to those of us that after should live ungodly, Selah! It is God's fallen messengers of the congregation are. We see it all throughout Scripture. He's not contrasting the people of the New Testament congregation with "heavenly beings or angels", but with those of His own people who went before and fell. If we ask what are the messengers that sinned? It is people like the ones He was just talking about in saying, there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you. Again, context! It seems to me (who is not perfect) that the whole point here is of those "messengers" of the corporate relationship with God falling away, not supernatural angels in heaven like you think. It is a warning to God's messengers on earth, using the example of former messengers who have fallen away from the kingdom.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Now my response to your question about 2nd Peter 2:4.

2nd Peter 2:4

• "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

The messengers being reserved or [tereo], means to be observed, and by extension to be guarded or watched over. Much as a sentinel so that they cannot escape. They are cast down to a spiritual hell [tartaroo], meaning a boundless void or abyss where they must remain reserved unto the day they are resurrected from that death to stand before God and be judged. Judgment is not instantly upon death of the body, it is on the last day. Likewise:

Jude 1:6

• "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

God is talking about the human messengers who apostatized or fell away from the faith in leaving their primary habitation are now reserved or kept in spiritual chains in darkness that shall never be removed, to the day of judgment. It's the same as when I spoke about those who die unsaved. They do not immediately go to be judged, they are reserved in the abyss of perpetual darkness until "the last day" when they are resurrected to stand before God and be judged for their sins. For example, those who believe go to live and reign with the Lord immediately when they leave this body in death, but the unbelievers who physically die do not live or have conscious existence, they are reserved in this spiritual abyss until the time when the books are opened and they are judged out of it.

Revelation 20:5

• "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The "rest of the dead" in that verse refers to the unbelievers who are dead and were not part of Christ's "First Resurrection" (born again with the Spirit of God) from the dead. We read they didn't live again until the second resurrection. While those who have part in the first resurrection go to be with the lord when they exit their physical bodies, to live and reign with Him. The "rest" don't live or have conscious existence as these believers do, they are reserved until the second coming after the millennial reign of Christ, where they are raised from the dead to stand for judgment. That state "not living again" is what is in view here of the messengers who sinned, having been being cast down to hell and darkness and reserved unto the judgment.

So yes, it means that they are kept somewhere (a spiritual abyss, bound in spiritual chains in darkness) until the judgment. Until after the millennial reign of Christ in the church age is over, and they are resurrected to stand for that judgment. Even as it is written:

Revelation 20:13

• "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

So clearly, God was not talking about your wild fantasy of supernatural angels falling from heaven, lusting after human women, and producing giant offspring! Then supposedly, a flood comes, all the human bodies host of the “angels” die, and now they’re chained in hell awaiting judgment? That’s pure nonsense!

Stop twisting Scripture with myths and speculation. God was speaking about His own people, his covenant people making up of two groups of people, those within His kingdom of heaven, the old testament congregation, not some made-up tale of fallen celestial beings. If you would get over your affinity for the in-vogue, anglicized, Greek aberrations of the God-inspired word "Messenger" you might actually realize that God spoke off his messengers who kept not their first estate but fell away from God. You could come to the truth of who this all pertains to. But that's not my task, I am merely a witness to this truth. God is the Revelator of it.

Selah!

 

[WPM]

I will response to Jude 6 here.

Jude 1:6

• "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

The messengers (angels) God was talking about are human messengers of the kingdom of heaven (congregation) on Earth. Not in heaven! It is not about angelic beings. Within the kingdom there are two groups of messengers. One is chosen Elect of God and other are professed Christians (corporate believers) who are not truly born again and still have spirit of Satan. As Messengers of God, they didn't keep their first position (occupancy) that they had as the corporate children/sons of God. They instead forsook Him, leaving their lofty position as corporate sons to habituate with the Devil. "Habitation" is simply their dwelling place. They were once in the dwelling place of God (Mt 21:42-43), but have since left it, being blinded in chains.

Matthew 21:41-43

• "They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
• Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Spiritually speaking, they, as the corproate/external part of the Old Testament Congregation are no longer the representation of the Kingdom of God, no longer their residence (where they reside) dwelling with God, but have fallen away and forsaken Him. And the remanent (Peter, James, John, and all the followers etc.) continued into the New Testament congregation:

Ephesians 2:21-22

• "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
• In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

The church, assembly, or congregation of the Lord is built up of God a spiritual house, with some in it likened unto gold, silver, and precious stones (Elect), but also others likened unto wood, hay, and stubble (professed Christians). For example, a habitation or residence built both of truly saved people, and of those confessing but not really saved people. The unsaved who fall away from the habitation are sons of God who left their first estate! And it has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone losing their salvation because they were never truly saved but only lip serving God. The wood hay and stubble of this habitation NEVER were born of the Spirit to begin with. But their first position or first estate was that they were part of the corporate body of God until they were apostatized. Example:

2nd Peter 2:20-22

• "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
• For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
• But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

It's no great mystery how the people of the congregation of God can fall from their first estate, or what that first estate was. The text implies that instead of being content with the dignity assigned to them as Messengers and sons of God, in their lusts they aspired to higher and greater things and are thus set forth for an example, suffering the coming vengeance of God.

So ONCE AGAIN, I don't really "claim" it's messengers, the actual God-authored word [aggelos] is the word messenger. It actually means and is defined as "messenger." Angel is just an anglicized version of the Greek word that very literally "means" messenger. When we hear the word angel, we usually think of a heavenly being with wings that is not God or man. But such a meaning is not actually present in the ACTUAL Hebrew word [mal'ak] or the actual Greek word [aggelos].

So Jude 1:6 is talking about the false mesengers/ministers/envoys/prophets/ambassadors/teachers/servants OF SATAN that have fallen, will heavily populate hell. Of that you can be sure.

Actually, the whole context of Jude is of God comparing the falling away from God or apostasy of wicked people (not "angels", PEOPLE) of old, with the false prophets that would also come in among the church in the New Testament era and cause many to fall. He is using these "MEN" of His house (sons or children of God) of the past, as examples of the unfaithfulness that would come in among these Christians also (who are also men, not angels) and would bring upon "themselves" swift destruction. Just as it had these messengers of God of old. Which makes PERFECT sense if He is talking about His people of old. Context is always important. And the context is "clearly" not a discussion of angels, but of judgment on the unfaithful of His people.

2nd Peter 2:1-9

• "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
• And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
• And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
• For if God spared not the [messengers] that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
• And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
• And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
• And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
• (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
• The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"

The unjust are those reserved in chains of darkness (meaning blinded forever, no restoration). These are also men, not Angels. Moreover, angels are not an example to those of us that after should live ungodly, Selah! It is God's fallen messengers of the congregation are. We see it all throughout Scripture. He's not contrasting the people of the New Testament congregation with "heavenly beings or angels", but with those of His own people who went before and fell. If we ask what are the messengers that sinned? It is people like the ones He was just talking about in saying, there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you. Again, context! It seems to me (who is not perfect) that the whole point here is of those "messengers" of the corporate relationship with God falling away, not supernatural angels in heaven like you think. It is a warning to God's messengers on earth, using the example of former messengers who have fallen away from the kingdom.

What a load of made-up nonsense. I feel like I am reading the cults. They do the same twisting of the sacred text. This is classic Gnosticism. Very grievous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I will response to Jude 6 here.

Jude 1:6

• "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

The messengers (angels) God was talking about are human messengers of the kingdom of heaven (congregation) on Earth. Not in heaven! It is not about angelic beings. Within the kingdom there are two groups of messengers. One is chosen Elect of God and other are professed Christians (corporate believers) who are not truly born again and still have spirit of Satan. As Messengers of God, they didn't keep their first position (occupancy) that they had as the corporate children/sons of God. They instead forsook Him, leaving their lofty position as corporate sons to habituate with the Devil. "Habitation" is simply their dwelling place. They were once in the dwelling place of God (Mt 21:42-43), but have since left it, being blinded in chains.

Matthew 21:41-43

• "They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
• Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Spiritually speaking, they, as the corproate/external part of the Old Testament Congregation are no longer the representation of the Kingdom of God, no longer their residence (where they reside) dwelling with God, but have fallen away and forsaken Him. And the remanent (Peter, James, John, and all the followers etc.) continued into the New Testament congregation:

As usual, you make something simple very convoluted. I honestly feel sorry for you that you can't understand simple truths from scripture.

Let's examine the actual context of the verse in question (Jude 6) by looking at the surrounding verses, which you did not do for some reason.

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

So, in this passage, Jude first mentions "ungodly men" who "deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." in verse 4. So, he makes it clear that he's talking about people there calling them ungodly and saying that they deny Jesus Christ. Then in verse 5 he refers to people who were saved out of the land of Egypt and contrasts them with "those who did not believe". So, in each verse he makes it very clear that he's talking about people (human beings) there. He describes ungodly people who deny Christ and other people from Egypt who did not believe and were destroyed.

But, in verse 6, there is nothing specific and clear said about the angels in terms of where exactly they were from or why exactly they were reserved for judgment. It does say they didn't keep their first estate, but left their own habitation, and that does allude to why they were being judged, but that is kind of a vague description. It doesn't tell us specifically what "their first estate" was or what "their own habitation" was. Which contrasts the previous verse which specifically talks about people from Egypt and the verse before that which clearly talks about people who deny Christ. Why is that? You don't know why that is. I do. It's because it's talking about angels and not people. That's why Jude doesn't specify where they were from and doesn't say anything about them denying Christ or anything like that like he did when talking about people, including in verse 7 where he talks about the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. They weren't from anywhere on earth and angels were never required to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior like people are.

So, in verses 5 to 7 Jude is comparing the ungodly people who "deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ" that he mentioned in verse 4 to unbelievers of long ago in Egypt, to angels who left their first estate and to the wicked people from Sodom and Gomorrah. If the angels refer to human messengers, then why did Jude not specify where they were from like he did when referring to unbelievers in Egypt and to unbelievers in Sodom and Gomorrah? There would be no reason for him to leave that detail out if he was talking about people there. But, he was not. He was talking about angels who rebelled against God in heaven (their own habitation) and thereby left heaven and did not keep their first estate (their status as God's angels).

Everything I said here applies to 2 Peter 2:4 as well. In the surrounding verses, when speaking about people, Peter specified where they were from (Sodom and Gomorrah) and/or described them specifically in some way (false prophets, false teachers, etc.). But, he did neither in relation to the angels he referenced in 2 Peter 2:4. That is because he was not talking about people there, but was talking about angels from heaven who were God's angels, but they sinned and were sent down to Tartarus instead. It says "hell" there, but that can be confusing because "hell" is usually translated from the Greek word "Hades" which is a place where the souls and spirits of dead unbelievers go. If he was talking about people there, he would have said they were sent to Hades, not Tartarus. But, Peter was speaking figuratively about the angels who are not physical beings who can be physically chained up. They are reserved for judgment, as it says, but they're not literally chained up. Anyway, in each verse (Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4) angels are referred to in a different way than people within the passages in which those verses are contained. So, they were differentiated from people.

You try to say that Jude was referring to the first century Jewish scribes and Pharisees (I assume because of you relating that to Matthew 21:42-43) when speaking of the angels who left their first estate, but that is never specified there. Yet, he did specifically refer to the unblievers from Egypt and from Sodom and Gomorrah. If he was talking about unbelievers from Israel in Jude 6, why didn't he say so? I'll tell you why. Because he was talking about angels, not people.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now my response to your question about 2nd Peter 2:4.

You already addressed both Jude 6 and 2nd Peter 2:4 in the other post, so I have no idea why you created a second post when you already addressed both verses. Both verses (Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4) are about the same angels, so it's silly to act as if you needed to address the verses separately. So, I'm not going to read this whole post. I'll just respond to the following you said about 2nd Peter 2:4.

2nd Peter 2:4

• "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

The messengers being reserved or [tereo], means to be observed, and by extension to be guarded or watched over. Much as a sentinel so that they cannot escape. They are cast down to a spiritual hell [tartaroo], meaning a boundless void or abyss where they must remain reserved unto the day they are resurrected from that death to stand before God and be judged. Judgment is not instantly upon death of the body, it is on the last day.

You say these angels are human beings right? Since when are human unbelievers sent to tartaroo rather than to hades? Since never. But, you clearly didn't even consider this. You take everything out of context. The reason it refers to "tartaroo" there instead of "hades" where the souls and spirits of unbelievers go when they die (see Luke 16:19-31), is it's talking about angels (demons, fallen angels, evil spirit beings) and not people.

 

[Muna]

How was Jesus made lower than the angels (for the suffering of death) if the angels are human (which suffer death also)?

 

[TribulationSigns]

What a load of made-up nonsense. I feel like I am reading the cults. They do the same twisting of the sacred text. This is classic Gnosticism. Very grievous.

The natural man rejects it. To him, it seems foolish—like some cultish nonsense—so he hides behind labels like “Gnosticism” as a feeble excuse to avoid receiving the love of the truth. The Lord judges and I am comfortable with it.

 

[TribulationSigns]

As usual, you make something simple very convoluted. I honestly feel sorry for you that you can't understand simple truths from scripture.

Don't feel sorry for me. Sorry for yourself when the truth shall be revealed. :)

You try to say that Jude was referring to the first century Jewish scribes and Pharisees (I assume because of you relating that to Matthew 21:42-43) when speaking of the angels who left their first estate, but that is never specified there. Yet, he did specifically refer to the unblievers from Egypt and from Sodom and Gomorrah. If he was talking about unbelievers from Israel in Jude 6, why didn't he say so? I'll tell you why. Because he was talking about angels, not people.

God did. He was talking about His messengers — real people either sent with His Word, or under the spirit of Satan, — but you refuse to accept that. Instead, you cling to the idea of some “spiritual beings” because that’s what your traditions taught you, not what the Truth says. You trust man’s imagination more than God’s revelation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You already addressed both Jude 6 and 2nd Peter 2:4 in the other post, so I have no idea why you created a second post when you already addressed both verses. Both verses (Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4) are about the same angels, so it's silly to act as if you needed to address the verses separately. So, I'm not going to read this whole post. I'll just respond to the following you said about 2nd Peter 2:4.

LOL. Assumption is mother of all errors. No I write post for each verse due to size. Why must you be picky on how I write my posts. You are looking for excuses to discredit my position. Grow up.

You say these angels are human beings right? Since when are human unbelievers sent to tartaroo rather than to hades? Since never. But, you clearly didn't even consider this. You take everything out of context. The reason it refers to "tartaroo" there instead of "hades" where the souls and spirits of unbelievers go when they die (see Luke 16:19-31), is it's talking about angels (demons, fallen angels, evil spirit beings) and not people.

My goodness. No, no, no... you still don't get it.

Unlike Elect, when an unbelievers physically die, their souls enter a state of absolute silence—a place where life, as we know it, ceases. There is no knowledge, no feeling, no consciousness, no hearing, and no speech—until the voice of the archangel calls them to rise and stand before the Son of Man for judgment! This is the reality of Hades or Tartarus. It is not a physical place where souls suddenly “realize” they are in temporary torment, nor do they suffer pain while waiting. Not at all!

In Matthew 5:22, the chains symbolize this restraint: God holds the souls of the unbelieving dead, not angels, from any life activity. They cannot do anything, know anything, feel anything, or perceive time. They are kept in a place of complete “nothingness”—like being plunged into utter darkness, dead to life itself. Understand this clearly!

Psa 115:17

• The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

They remain in this unconscious state until the Second Resurrection. Only then are these souls raised to life to face judgment. They are reserved in this darkness until that appointed time. Consider this analogy: when you undergo lengthy surgery, you are put under anesthesia. Your consciousness is shut down—you feel nothing and know nothing. Hours can pass in reality, but it feels like seconds to you. This is exactly what happens to the souls of all unbelievers! Whether they died 3,000 years ago, 300 years ago, or last week, the sleep of death feels instant when awakened. That is why the judgment is the only thing they realize after their death...in a moment!

Heb 9:27

• And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

They will not have "life", knowing anything between their death and judgment day.

Rev 20:5

• But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

They will not resurrect to life again until the fullness of time for the purpose of holding them in hades or hell is finished. Then the hell will give up all of their dead for judgment:

Rev 20:13

• And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Your traditions have deceived you into believing Hades is a special place your spiritual beings called "angels" to be held. Nope, this misunderstanding has twisted your perception of God’s truth. Wake up to reality—Hades is about the unconscious dead awaiting judgment, nothing more.

@rwb

 

[rwb]

How was Jesus made lower than the angels (for the suffering of death) if the angels are human (which suffer death also)?

It's not that angels are human, angels are spirits that serve God. The Greek word angelos is also translated messenger as we find with John the Baptist and even Epaphroditus. The word translated of John is from the same Greek word angelos but there is speaks of a human messenger and not a spirit angel of God.

Angelos G32 - a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.

The context shows us when angelos is speaking of a human being, or a spirit being. In each of the verses below 'messenger' was translated from the same Greek word angelos that is also translated elsewhere angel. Humans are the messengers who serve God in flesh on this earth. Angels of God are spirits from heaven who also serve God.

Mt 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mr 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Lu 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

 

[JohnDB]

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