Predestination VS Free Will
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The movie plot is predestined. The actors are foreknown. But who will fulfill the good roles and bad roles is affected by our free will. Use your free will wisely.
The extremist reformist view championed by men such as Luther and Calvin is that man has no agency whatsoever in either salvation or justification. That's how people get predestination so wrong. Predestination is not about salvation or justification...it is ONLY about a certain number of people being conformed to the image of Christ.
The only place where faith only (sola fide), or grace alone (sola gratia) come to bear is in translation into the higher kingdom realm for holiness among those who are being trained to be saints.
Otherwise we are co-workers with God for both salvation and justification. We show repentance and humility, and God shows mercy. "Draw near to Me and I will draw near to you".
The problem with an unbalanced view that claims all while ignoring every condition and warning, is that it tends to throw out BOTH righteousness and holiness.
Salvation over all is 100% God and 100% us....BOTH working together to fulfill the will of God.
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man...same idea. Many will deny either Christ's divinity or His humanity...and many will make salvation either about God or us. But the balance in salvation/justification is that God helps us to do what is right...for the sake of justification. God EMPOWERS us...to do His will. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.....and not....God will do all things for me so I don't have anything to do.
The only place where faith only (sola fide), or grace alone (sola gratia) come to bear is in translation into the higher kingdom realm for holiness among those who are being trained to be saints.
Otherwise we are co-workers with God for both salvation and justification. We show repentance and humility, and God shows mercy. "Draw near to Me and I will draw near to you".
The problem with an unbalanced view that claims all while ignoring every condition and warning, is that it tends to throw out BOTH righteousness and holiness.
Salvation over all is 100% God and 100% us....BOTH working together to fulfill the will of God.
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man...same idea. Many will deny either Christ's divinity or His humanity...and many will make salvation either about God or us. But the balance in salvation/justification is that God helps us to do what is right...for the sake of justification. God EMPOWERS us...to do His will. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.....and not....God will do all things for me so I don't have anything to do.
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So the script is written with no imagination? With faceless actors at the time of writing? And with the angels, were they non-descript, unidentified actors when their Creator wrote His script?
Was every acting position vacant and at what point were they filled? What was the criteria? Michael the archangel just happened to be first in line for his role. What about for the role of 'devil'? Lucifer was close in proximity to God so did he have an unfair advantage for this prominent role of chief adversary? Maybe he fought other angels for it and displayed greater cunning and potential for advanced evil.
No imagination would be having everyone pre-determined in their roles...no nuances, no surprises. God is spontaneous in His actions...but they follow a pattern of mercy AND truth.
They were unknown to the angels. God FOREKNEW them...but did NOT Pre-determine them. I don't think you watched the video..
They may sound somewhat technical....The angels already have their role and act on it right now...they play....um....the angels.
Bad angel...see above.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Free will is the power of choice.
This is GOD given to every person who is.... 'made in our image"........ Gen 1:26
Paul teaches in Romans that every person has "the measure of faith".
God wants everyone to use their faith to Trust in Christ.
Not everyone will.
Everyone who does is given "The Gift of Righteousness"....that the "imputed rightesousess".
Some use their faith to trust in Allah.
Some use their faith to trust in Money
Some use their faith to trust in Science
Some use their faith to trust in The Buddha
Some use their faith to trust in Scientology
Some use their faith to trust that there is no God.
Satan owned Heretics teach a evolved forum of Hyper-Calvinism that says that you are too depraved to trust in Christ, so God has to force you, has to cause you to do it by gving you faith to do it.
The worst type of Hyper-Calvinist nutbar.....will teach that you have to be born again.....before you can trust in Christ.
So, that is theological insanity that is teaching that before you are forgiven......you are born again first......so that you can afterwards trust in Christ by faith that God has caused you to have.
Let me show you why this crazy hyper-calvinism teaching not only defines a heretic but defines that they have no understanding of God's Blood Atonement......that is THe Cross of Christ.
Now, notice..........If as this Calvinized Calvinits "crazy" teaches.... = that God births you spiritually as born again so that He can then cause you to believe in Jesus by faith.....then God has joining Himself Spiritually to an unforgiven sinner to do that....for them.
The means you would become born again IN SIN.......vs Forgiven to then be born again.
This means Holy God would have joined Himself to SIN.....
Listen.... God requires your faith in Christ... to then give you forgiveness.......... Whereas, the Hyper-Calvinist Heretic teaching has God joining Himself to you, as a sinner, unforgiven......to then cause you to have faith.......that you then give God to be forgiven.
A.) Nuts.
AA.) Hyper-Calvinism is one of the most theologically insane teachings ever created by demon controlled religious fanatics.
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"And as many as were predestinated unto life believed."
Acts 13:48
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
R 8:29–30 (ESV)
Hello to the group,
Not sure how you may feel about this, shouldn't have to worry about the feelings of this saying right? I got told the other day, pretty much it's God's will for people to be raped, and murdered because it was predetermined...
The comment was sickening to me personally. Now I get God had nations killed, and children put to death within those nations to protect Israel, in order for the birth of the Messiah to come about. However, to say that God predetermines people to experience rape and murder is just straight baffling to me ... sick, distorted, and makes absolutely no sense. I get many people believe that God is evil... and think he is monstrous but I do not believe this is truly the case.
I believe people choose to determine their actions in their hearts and minds and then react to the thought within them, its similar to how Eve saw the fruit as good for wisdom and chose to take part of it. I find it deplorable to suggest that God predetermines these things. I do believe that God did have chosen people that were faith, including those who did not worship Baal, because they by their freewill knew better than to worship what those people did, same with who was it? Daniel, when King Nebby forced martial law on people, Daniel went and prayed either way and was sentenced to be put in the den of lions.
Anyway... Today we all have freewill. God also has free will. If he was to stop crime for one person, he would have to stop crime for all people. I believe this is why He was smart enough to set up governing authorities and the prison systems which are in place today, in order to keep people who are harmful to society of the street, if it is possible, in order to protect people, even children, from rape, and people being murdered, harassed or stalked...
If anyone would like to share anything more concerning this feel free too, may respond or may not. Your time is appreciated.
Grace, and peace,
Matthew
Not sure how you may feel about this, shouldn't have to worry about the feelings of this saying right? I got told the other day, pretty much it's God's will for people to be raped, and murdered because it was predetermined...
The comment was sickening to me personally. Now I get God had nations killed, and children put to death within those nations to protect Israel, in order for the birth of the Messiah to come about. However, to say that God predetermines people to experience rape and murder is just straight baffling to me ... sick, distorted, and makes absolutely no sense. I get many people believe that God is evil... and think he is monstrous but I do not believe this is truly the case.
I believe people choose to determine their actions in their hearts and minds and then react to the thought within them, its similar to how Eve saw the fruit as good for wisdom and chose to take part of it. I find it deplorable to suggest that God predetermines these things. I do believe that God did have chosen people that were faith, including those who did not worship Baal, because they by their freewill knew better than to worship what those people did, same with who was it? Daniel, when King Nebby forced martial law on people, Daniel went and prayed either way and was sentenced to be put in the den of lions.
Anyway... Today we all have freewill. God also has free will. If he was to stop crime for one person, he would have to stop crime for all people. I believe this is why He was smart enough to set up governing authorities and the prison systems which are in place today, in order to keep people who are harmful to society of the street, if it is possible, in order to protect people, even children, from rape, and people being murdered, harassed or stalked...
If anyone would like to share anything more concerning this feel free too, may respond or may not. Your time is appreciated.
Grace, and peace,
Matthew
Not sure what translation this is, but "prohoridzo", predestinated, is not used in that place.
In this case, "predestined" concerns being conformed to the image of Christ, not being regenerated.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
Your verse is speaking of God's foreknowledge.
Like this..
And all who God knew would believe, were appointed unto eternal life.
That is not God causing some to believe and refusing to allow others, as Lying Hyper Calvinism teaches..
The Predestining happens AFTER a person is "in Christ".
Notice again that the predestination, is based on God's Foreknowledge........vs God's choosing or causing.
God KNOWS who is going to become a believer, and so, they are predestined to be conformed......according to God's Foreknowledge.
This again is in context with Foreknowledge...
The Cross of Christ is always Calling everyone to come and Believe In Jesus.
Jesus said....>>"if i be lifted up (on The Cross) I will Draw (Call) ALL people to myself".
So, here we see that God's offer of Salvation is Universal.....which is why John 3:16 says "For God so loved the World".....which is everyone.......therefore = everyone is given the opportunity to Trust in Christ because everyone is a part of the World... and everyone has "the measure of Faith"......Paul teaches.
Justification of a sinner, is solely based on Jesus's Blood covenant that has allowed God to Justify a sinner, as Righteous by "Faith"
= Our """"Faith is counted by God as (Christ's) Righteousness".""""..
Like this..
"Abraham BELIEVED God, at it (His FAITH) was counted unto Him as RIGHTEOUSNESS""........ (imputed righteousness). "The Gift of Righteousness".
tetagmenoi - To arrange, to appoint, to order, to ordain
No practical difference from predestination, IMO.
The verse literally says "those he predestined... he also justified". You stated that justification is not a part of predestination.
Did they quote Zech 14: 1 & 2
A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped.
Predetermined? Caused? Permitted?
Maybe you are refering to the God of Israel commanding Joshua to have His people kill men, women and children over and over again throughout Canaan.
Some may find it challenging to get their head around this. To reconcile or justify the actions of a God Who had devised such a plan and commanded it be carried out.
God, acting on His foreknowledge saved some in Jericho from such a fate, Rahab and family. God could've saved many more. Even the whole city, as was the case with Nineveh.
Thanks for your post.
What if there is a longer term plan where the outcome is all good in the future, in the coming ages. As was the case with the coming of the Messiah as you said.
Now I get God had nations killed, and children put to death within those nations to protect Israel, in order for the birth of the Messiah to come about.
Then all this good and evil makes sense. Whether it be predetermined, caused or permitted by God.
As someone quoted recently....
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Hello @One 2 question,
What's good? Good morning.
I didn't read your quotes to me, there are 3 of them. Why not just make one my guy?
Thank you, grace and peace,
Matthew
What's good? Good morning.
I didn't read your quotes to me, there are 3 of them. Why not just make one my guy?
Thank you, grace and peace,
Matthew
- Does God predestinate Child predators to show up to a persons house to meet the said child to abuse them?
- I think that was the predator's choice.
- I am thankful for people catching these people and getting the police involved.
Predestination is about one's final destination.
What you mean is predetermination - every single action.
In Romans 8:29, the Greek word translated as “predestined” is proorizō (προορίζω), which means “to determine beforehand” or “to set boundaries in advance.”
Here’s a deeper breakdown of its meaning and usage:
Greek Word: Proorizō (προορίζω)
Romans 8:29 Context
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son…”
This verse doesn’t just speak to individual fate—it speaks to purposeful transformation. The predestination here is not merely about salvation, but about being conformed to the image of Christ, becoming part of a redeemed family with Christ as the firstborn.
Theological Implications
Here’s a deeper breakdown of its meaning and usage:
Greek Word: Proorizō (προορίζω)
- Root Components:
- Pro (πρό): “before”
- Horizō (ὁρίζω): “to determine,” “to set boundaries” (from which we get the English word “horizon”)
- Literal Meaning: “To mark out or determine beforehand,” like drawing a boundary line before something unfolds.
- Figurative Usage: In the New Testament, it refers to God’s sovereign decision or purpose established before time. It’s not just foreseeing, but foreordaining—setting a course or destiny in advance.
Romans 8:29 Context
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son…”
- Foreknew (proginōskō) emphasizes relational knowledge—God’s intimate awareness of people beforehand.
- Predestined (proorizō) emphasizes purpose—God’s intentional plan for those He foreknew to be shaped into Christ’s likeness.
This verse doesn’t just speak to individual fate—it speaks to purposeful transformation. The predestination here is not merely about salvation, but about being conformed to the image of Christ, becoming part of a redeemed family with Christ as the firstborn.
Theological Implications
- Determinism vs. Relational Purpose: Some traditions interpret proorizō as strict determinism (God choosing who will be saved), while others see it as God’s plan for those who respond to His call.
- Paul’s Usage: The word appears six times in the New Testament, always in contexts of divine purpose—Acts 4:28, Romans 8:29–30, 1 Corinthians 2:7, Ephesians 1:5, 11.
Theologically, there are two terms used in discussions - predestination and predetermination. The first one is about our final destination (salvation), the second one is about details in our life (or even movements of subatomic particles, whatever level of reality one wishes to go into).
It is good to not use them interchangeably.
