Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture

[GeneZ]

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

Bad translations will cause such a problem if we stop right there.
"Falling away" is a bad translation.
A good many even translated it - the great apostasy.

for . . . that day shall not come​

except if there first comes....​

"the departure" [apostasia]​

- the Rapture of the Church!​

​

Apostasy also means to depart!​

​

Do your own Google search,.. Using - "Apostasy also means to depart" ​

​

You'll see. ​

​

 

[No Pre-TB]

Bad translations will cause such a problem if we stop right there.
"Falling away" is a bad translation.
A good many even translated it - the great apostasy.

for . . . that day shall not come​

except if there first comes....​

"the departure" [apostasia]​

- the Rapture of the Church!​

​

​

In Acts 21:21, Were the early Christians physically departing Moses? Were they receiving their immortal bodies 2k years ago?
In the Septuagint, Joshua 22:22 and 2 Chronicles 20:19 use apostasia for rebelling against God.

Polybius uses it in his "Histories" as political defection.

It is literally departing from God's ways.

 

[GeneZ]

In Acts 21:21, Were the early Christians physically departing Moses? Were they receiving their immortal bodies 2k years ago?
In the Septuagint, Joshua 22:22 and 2 Chronicles 20:19 use apostasia for rebelling against God.

Polybius uses it in his "Histories" as political defection.

It is literally departing from God's ways.

The word can mean "departure." From what is departed from, will depend in its context.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The word can mean "departure." From what is departed from, will depend in its context.

Yes it can, but never a physical departure. Its only used twice in scripture and in Acts its not a physical departure. Its used a few times outside the Bible in the Greek and everytime its not physical either.

The rapture cannot happen till the rapture happens first.....

 

[GeneZ]

Yes it can, but never a physical departure. Its only used twice in scripture and in Acts its not a physical departure. Its used a few times outside the Bible in the Greek and everytime its not physical either.

Hmmmm?

The phrase "Satan departed from the Lord" has two main biblical contexts: first, his expulsion from heaven due to pride, and second, his departure after tempting Jesus and after being granted permission to test Job.

 

[David in NJ]

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

I do not believe in pre-trib rapture because i BELIEVE Jesus at His word = Matt chapter 24

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

pre-trib rapture cannot be found in the Bible = it is man-made by the sons of the money changers that JESUS threw out of the Temple

Truth challenge for anyone who can find just one prophecy in scripture that declares a pre-trib rapture from:
a.) the OT Prophets
b.) the LORD Jesus Christ
c.) the Apostles

 

[David in NJ]

Yes it can, but never a physical departure. Its only used twice in scripture and in Acts its not a physical departure. Its used a few times outside the Bible in the Greek and everytime its not physical either.

The rapture cannot happen till the rapture happens first.....

2 Thess 2:3 "falling away" is a departure from the Truth

Never allow yourself to be bullied by the pre-fibbers

 

[David in NJ]

Well it depends on how you look at the order of events in scripture because if you search for a pretrib rapture in scripture you can find it perception changes how we understand scripture the issue with this method is that it can mislead one to believe something that isn't true

If one goes into scripture with their beliefs already set in stone then that is all they will see

Perception???

Faith in the Word/Truth is how we are SAVED.

The Bible is written for Grade School level understanding = for children

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

JESUS Says HE is Coming again AFTER the Tribulation = this is the Prophetic TRUTH from Genesis to Revelation

 

[GeneZ]

Yippeeee!
False teaching is making points!!!!

So they think.

 

[David in NJ]

Yippeeee!
False teaching is making points!!!!

So they think.

"They" think they will escape judgment.

Saints believe JESUS every word.

"They" disregard JESUS words.

Don't be a "They" , be a Saint by believing every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God

 

[GodsGrace]

That is not accurate.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead rise first. The Greek uses the word protos for first in time or sequence.

Strong's
próton: firstly (in time, place, order, or importance) -- before, at the beginning, chiefly (at, at the) first (of all).
epeita: thereafter -- after that(-ward), then.

Barnes says, The word here rendered "then" (ἔπειτα epeita), does not necessarily mean that this would occur immediately. It properly marks succession in time, and means "afterward, next, next in the order of events;" Luke 16:7; Galatians 1:21; James 4:14.

After the dead rise, it then uses the word "then" to show the next step in the order of things. The dead rise first. Then, after that event, the living will be harpazo'd. And a careful study would show you that the passage is actually against Pre-trib.


Those who are alive and remain...The word for remain means survive as well as "last in a race". So let me ask you, what are the living surviving from that everyone else died and is part of the resurrection of the dead? The word, perileipomai, is used only 2 times in the NT. But it is found 4 other places outside the Bible and in every single time its surviving calamity which does not fit with pre-Trib but does fit with other positions. One example when the word is used outside the Bible is by Josephus in his Wars of the Jews. He describes those that "perileipomai" the slaughter from the Romans. Another example was a King that was dying of a plague. He uses "perileipomai" to describe those friends of his gathered around him on his death bed that haven't died from the plague when everyone else did.

examples:
1. Plutarch, Pericles 38.3
2. Papyrus P.Oxy. 1380
3. Josephus, Wars of the Jews 3.343
4. Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 20.8.2

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
. 16For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.
17Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.
18Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.


1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child *, and they will not escape.


Two different versions....
Verses 1 - 3 state that NO ONE will escape.

Verses 16-18 state that the dead will rise FIRST
AND THEN the living, who are left, shall be taken up.


If YOU were correct,,,all the faithful would be left on earth and it would not be both the dead and living that are saved living together.

You don't need Strong's to understand that Jesus is coming back ONE TIME..
for both the dead and those that are still alive - and we all will receive our resurrected bodies.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yippeeee!
False teaching is making points!!!!

So they think.

Never can tell what is the false teaching.

The rapture was NEVER taught in the church until the 1830's.
ANY teaching that is current and was not taught by the Apostles or the ones they taught cannot be considered
to be biblically correct.

The idea of a rapture as it is defined in dispensational premillennialism is not found in historic Christianity and is a relatively recent doctrine originating from the 1830s. The term is used frequently among fundamentalist theologians in the United States.[2] The origin of the term extends from the First Epistle to the Thessalonians in the Bible, which uses the Greek word harpazo (Ancient Greek: ἁρπάζω), meaning "to snatch away" or "to seize".

Differing viewpoints exist about the exact time of the rapture and whether Christ's return would occur in one event or two. Pretribulationism distinguishes the rapture from the Second Coming of Jesus Christ mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew, 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation. This view holds that the rapture would precede the seven-year Tribulation, which would culminate in Christ's second coming and be followed by a thousand-year Messianic Kingdom.[3][4] This theory grew out of the translations of the Bible that John Nelson Darby analyzed in 1833. Pretribulationism is the most widely held view among Christians believing in the rapture today, although this view is disputed within evangelicalism.[5] Other views include midtribulation, prewrath, and posttribulation rapture.

Most Christian denominations do not subscribe to rapture theology and have a different interpretation of the aerial gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4.[6] They do not use rapture as a specific theological term, nor do they generally subscribe to the dispensational theology associated with its use.[7] Instead they typically interpret rapture in the sense of the elect gathering with Christ in Heaven directly after the Second Coming and reject outright the idea that a large portion of humanity will be left behind on earth for an extended tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.[6][8]

source: Wikepedia

 

[GeneZ]

Never can tell what is the false teaching.

The rapture was NEVER taught in the church until the 1830's.
ANY teaching that is current and was not taught by the Apostles or the ones they taught cannot be considered
to be biblically correct.

If it were not, in large part, for the Catholic Church dumbing down believers, the Rapture would have been understood a long time ago.

Truth does not change over time.
Ignorance just can not see it when it has always been there.

 

[David in NJ]

If it were not, in large part, for the Catholic Church dumbing down believers, the Rapture would have been understood a long time ago.

Truth does not change over time.
Ignorance just can not see it when it has always been there.

The KGB of the RCC promoted the pre-trib lie in the evangelical churches in order to 'dumb-down' the protestant churches which gave protection to the RCC and the rise of the AC with the Mark of the Beast which has now been established with current technology and soon to be made law.

 

[GodsGrace]

If it were not, in large part, for the Catholic Church dumbing down believers, the Rapture would have been understood a long time ago.

Truth does not change over time.
Ignorance just can not see it when it has always been there.

Are you saying the CC is so dumb that all the theologians that came before us were too dumb to figure out that MAYBE a large part of mankind would be swept off the face of the earth so they could be spared the tribulation?

You're talking about a church that believes in purgatory.

Seems to me that the rapture would have been a good scheme to get all those dumb people to go to church and donate their money to build all these beautiful churches in Europe! Looks like the CC missed out on a good idea.

Also, it's rather proudful of you to believe that generations before us were DUMB.
As if today we're super smart/intelligent because we know a bit more about science.

Truth does not change over time...
correct.
My point exactly.

No rapture in the early church...
No rapture now.

 

[GeneZ]

I can wait to see their faces when they find themselves raptured....

It will be like the shock of discovering you just won the lottery after a friend bought a ticket for you.

 

[No Pre-TB]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
. 16For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.
17Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.
18Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.


1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child *, and they will not escape.


Two different versions....
Verses 1 - 3 state that NO ONE will escape.

Verses 16-18 state that the dead will rise FIRST
AND THEN the living, who are left, shall be taken up.


If YOU were correct,,,all the faithful would be left on earth and it would not be both the dead and living that are saved living together.

You don't need Strong's to understand that Jesus is coming back ONE TIME..
for both the dead and those that are still alive - and we all will receive our resurrected bodies.

I agree, Christ comes back one time for the dead and the living remnant. The dead rise first, they dont rise with the living. There is an order to things.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Yippeeee!
False teaching is making points!!!!

So they think.

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Doesn't look Pre-Trib to me.

Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Wait, how does Jesus descend from Heaven to rapture us and bring us back to Heaven for 7 years if he cannot leave Heaven till the restoration of all things which happens after the destruction? Doesn't look like Pre-Trib to me.

1 Cor 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I wonder where Paul is quoting from? Could it be Isaiah 25?

And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

In this mountain is the resurrection? Isn't that the 1k year reign of Christ? Pre-Trib, we have a problem.

Matthew 24
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Wait the wicked were taken away in the flood? So the one taken is not the rapture but the wicked and the ones left are the righteous?
Pre-Trib we got a problem.

But no one knows the hour when the son of man will come (for the rapture).
Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Wait a second, that day know one knows is linked back to Christ earlier words when he said "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:"

Those Pre-Trib's and their Pre-Trib trickery! Almost got me again. That's the 2nd Advent.

 

[GeneZ]

Very confused people congregate here.

They quote passages which they impose their own understanding upon.

 

[GodsGrace]

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Doesn't look Pre-Trib to me.

Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Wait, how does Jesus descend from Heaven to rapture us and bring us back to Heaven for 7 years if he cannot leave Heaven till the restoration of all things which happens after the destruction? Doesn't look like Pre-Trib to me.

1 Cor 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I wonder where Paul is quoting from? Could it be Isaiah 25?

And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

In this mountain is the resurrection? Isn't that the 1k year reign of Christ? Pre-Trib, we have a problem.

Matthew 24
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Wait the wicked were taken away in the flood? So the one taken is not the rapture but the wicked and the ones left are the righteous?
Pre-Trib we got a problem.

But no one knows the hour when the son of man will come (for the rapture).
Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Wait a second, that day know one knows is linked back to Christ earlier words when he said "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:"

Those Pre-Trib's and their Pre-Trib trickery! Almost got me again. That's the 2nd Advent.

Great post!