Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

[St. SteVen]

I guess that the lake of fire is only mentioned in 1 book in the bible.

It's an interesting point. And found in only a few places.

Revelation 19:20 NIV
But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet
who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs
he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast
and worshiped its image. The two of them were
thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:14-15 NIV
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life
was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 NIV
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers,
the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—
they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
This is the second death.”

[

 

[amigo de christo]

It's an interesting point. And found in only a few places.

Revelation 19:20 NIV
But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet
who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs
he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast
and worshiped its image. The two of them were
thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:14-15 NIV
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life
was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 NIV
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers,
the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—
they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
This is the second death.”

[

Oh its made much more clear in one book . The same book that says IF one adds too or t akes
from , well lets just say they will be in that lake of fire .
And do notice UNBLEIVERS are THERE . so lets not try and make the path to GOD broad by a universalism inclusivists view .
LETS PREACH JESUS and lets NOT ADD TOO or take from the WORDS of GOD lest we be found a liar
Because A LIAR will be found there too in that lake of fire .
SO now i leave us with these words .
HE who does NOT BELEIVE the testimony that THE FATHER gave OF THE SON
CALLS GOD HIMSELF A LIAR . Yeah lets not preach UNBELEIF one more second . START rather
POINTING Folks to THE ONLY NAME OF JESUS THE CHRIST whereby one may be saved . BELEIVING TIME
and BIBLE TIME .
cause men often can and do come along
and always they try and plant DOUBT on THE INSPIRED SCRIPTURES to fit an idea THEY DESIRE is TRUTH .
BUT DO SO unto their own destruction . YA cant pick and choose what parts of said b ible you desire to be true
and what parts you desire to omit . ANY who does so
DOES exactly what peter once wrote to the church long ago .
THEY TWIST THEM unto their own DESTRUCTION . You were warned my friend .

 

[One 2 question]

ProDeo
as you can witness by his last response to you
it is clear to see the voices in that mans head is having HIM reconstruct and accuse what is written in revelation
in order to fit what he desires to beleive .
And now a word .
HE who adds to
takes from this book . you read what occurs to such a man . He who omits things in this book .

To the contrary. This book/scroll of John has influenced my thinking, belief and hope more than any other book in the bibles. I'm glad God had him record this revelation.

Equally I'm glad God gave me the revelation of what He intends to do in ages beyond what John recorded. I don't know what John wasn't allowed to record, it could've included what I saw. Time will tell.

And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Interestingly, Daniel was restricted too. I wonder who else experienced this?

But as for you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal up the book until the end of time.

 

[One 2 question]

ProDeo
as you can witness by his last response to you
it is clear to see the voices in that mans head is having HIM reconstruct and accuse what is written in revelation
in order to fit what he desires to beleive .
And now a word .
HE who adds to
takes from this book . you read what occurs to such a man . He who omits things in this book .

And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

So are you going to join those who in John's time and ever since accused him of hearing voices in his head. Saying he was influenced by demons, and hearing there voices.

Then one possessed with a demon was brought to Him, blind and mute, and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. All the people were amazed and said, “Is He not the Son of David?”
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “This Man does not cast out demons, except by Beelzebub the ruler of the demons.”

A student is not greater than his teacher. A servant is not above his master. The student shares his teacher’s fate. The servant shares his master’s! And since I, the master of the household, have been called ‘Satan,’ how much more will you! But don’t be afraid of those who threaten you. For the time is coming when the truth will be revealed: their secret plots will become public information.

Yes, John a servant of Jesus, was falsely accused of hearing voices and even being demon possessed. Well, no surprise. Jesus experienced this too. So will we. It comes with the territory and the relationship with Jesus.

 

[One 2 question]

Yeah lets not preach UNBELEIF one more second .

Absolutely. I share the gospel of Christ's kingdom. And I share the gospel of the kingdom of our Lord so that people may believe. I hope it produces repentance, belief, faith, and sanctification.

And the seventh angel sounded, and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever!”

Again, John heard voices, not of humans present with him but in a vision, in his head.

 

[St. SteVen]

Again, John heard voices, not of humans present with him but in a vision, in his head.

I am of the opinion that the experience for John was immersive. He was transported by the Spirit.
The first sentence in each chapter leads me to observe this. He was there.

[

 

[Behold]

Lie. Why do you twist my words?

You told us that you dont use an actual bible for Years.
So, now you listen only to a voice in your head or voice inside yourself, that you falsely define as of God.
But the reality is, God's Holy Sirit would never lead you away from the bible.
Any real Christian knows this .. @One 2 question

Thats the reality.

 

[ProDeo]

I guess that the lake of fire is only mentioned in 1 book in the bible. And this book was omitted, added, removed and added again numerous times.

So therefore are you saying that this idea of the lake of fire is questionable?

It's one of the reasons.

On the other hand :

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Ouch..........

OTOH-2 :

It's the author who says it, not Jesus.

And unprecedented for any Bible book.

OTOH-3 :

It is believed Revelations is written ~AD90, 20 years after the temple was destroyed, but in chapter 11 (The Two Witnesses) it's about the temple still in place, so should we conclude Revelations was written before AD70? And that would make sense to me because Jesus says it 3 times :

Rev 22:7 - And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
Rev 22:12 - Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
Rev 22:20 - He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

Completely in sync with all the warnings Jesus gave in the Gospels to be ready.

And soon isn't 2000 years, soon is soon.

And Jesus spared those who were ready from the great tribulation :

Matt 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Matt 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.

 

[amigo de christo]

Always remember a harlot knows what to say to please a man to sit under her .
Never sit under a harlot .

 

[amigo de christo]

Absolutely. I share the gospel of Christ's kingdom. And I share the gospel of the kingdom of our Lord so that people may believe. I hope it produces repentance, belief, faith, and sanctification.

And the seventh angel sounded, and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever!”

Again, John heard voices, not of humans present with him but in a vision, in his head.

unfortunately , however for many is the vision and voice they hear
CONTRADICTS what is already written and they still THINK iTS COMING of G OD .
now that is d eluision . just a friendly reminder to us all . BIBLE TIME .

 

[Marvelloustime]

unfortunately , however for many is the vision and voice they hear
CONTRADICTS what is already written and they still THINK iTS COMING of G OD .
now that is d eluision . just a friendly reminder to us all . BIBLE TIME .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Oh its made much more clear in one book . The same book that says IF one adds too or t akes
from , well lets just say they will be in that lake of fire .
And do notice UNBLEIVERS are THERE . so lets not try and make the path to GOD broad by a universalism inclusivists view .
LETS PREACH JESUS and lets NOT ADD TOO or take from the WORDS of GOD lest we be found a liar
Because A LIAR will be found there too in that lake of fire .
SO now i leave us with these words .
HE who does NOT BELEIVE the testimony that THE FATHER gave OF THE SON
CALLS GOD HIMSELF A LIAR . Yeah lets not preach UNBELEIF one more second . START rather
POINTING Folks to THE ONLY NAME OF JESUS THE CHRIST whereby one may be saved . BELEIVING TIME
and BIBLE TIME .
cause men often can and do come along
and always they try and plant DOUBT on THE INSPIRED SCRIPTURES to fit an idea THEY DESIRE is TRUTH .
BUT DO SO unto their own destruction . YA cant pick and choose what parts of said b ible you desire to be true
and what parts you desire to omit . ANY who does so
DOES exactly what peter once wrote to the church long ago .
THEY TWIST THEM unto their own DESTRUCTION . You were warned my friend .

@amigo de christo

 

[Hillsage]

I will not separate the Word from the Savior! The Word is how we might know and believe the Savior. You know this and even quoted the verse that tells us the written Word of God testifies or is the testimony of/about Christ.

John 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I am not separating "the Word" from "the Christ the Saviour". The Word gave up being 'invisible spirit' to become the visible "flesh" body of Jesus. The Holy Spirit of God then put the spirit of Christ into that "word became FLESH" body. Then, Jesus the Christ would have a WORD/GOD BODY that could be seen, and die on the cross. But the life giving holy spirit of Christ, which was in the triune man Jesus....did not die on that cross. The visible body of Jesus revealed the invisible God nature (Christ spirit) to mankind for 33 years. It was the Christ spirit DWELLING IN Adam which made Adam the first "son of GOD".

LUK 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

I think it was you who pointed out that the "spirit of Christ" was IN the prophets when they spoke in 1Pet 1:11. I am of the persuasion that the spirit of Christ did not dwell in them, but spoke through them when they were giving a prophetic word.
Just my opinion, but it works for me.

John 1:10-14 (KJV) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Two different Greek words for "received" above. These affect my understanding of UR and OSAS and Calvinism for spirit salvation, versus a progressive Arminianism soul salvation of four steps forward & two step backslide. Spirit salvation gets you into heaven (inherited crown). Soul salvation determines your rewards after entering (throw down your crowns of conquest earned here and now). And yes, predestination is spelled out above also as to being 'born' again by God's will period. Just an overall paradigm FYI.

Testify - to be a witness, i.e. testify (literally or figuratively):—charge, give (evidence), bear record, have (obtain, of) good (honest) report, be well reported of, testify, give (have) testimony, (be, bear, give, obtain) witness.

All of these definitions fit my paradigm when applied to the invisible character of God. Character which was was visibly manifested in the physical body of Jesus. A Jesus who was led of 'the Spirit of Christ' dwelling IN Him. He was not led by The Holy Spirit of God, which was always UPON him in scripture. The Holy Spirit of God was not the source of the character fruit, but of the supernatural gifts, or POWER of the triune God. Same for us believers who have the spirit of christ (lower case for us) dwelling in our bodies today. Jesus today is the invisible head of His body, as He sits on the throne today. But WE are His many membered visible body on earth today. We are His "living stones" temple and He is our head (sg).

Translations are written by man! The written Word that became flesh, God promised would never depart from us. It is the product given man from men of Old who wrote under inspiration as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

I believe that is true....back in the OT as well as in the NT. It is also true in each of us who is being led by the spirit of Christ in us. I have heard the voice of God through that spirit just like Jesus....but certainly not as well as Jesus did. Heck even the FundaMENTAL pastor will say he was CALLED OF GOD to be a preacher. And then preach to everyone that you can't be spirit led because God isn't talking today, so you have to follow the BIBLE. We left our last church (4yr at Reformed Baptist) when that was in his sermon on a Sunday when I was gone for the weekend serving and teaching at a Men's Encounter retreat. I went back that next Sunday alone, and after the service told him we were leaving because we felt CALLED to go back to our old charismatic church. Which was true. The wife and I both had just been talking about feeling spirit drawing us back 2 weeks earlier.

2 Peter 1:19-21 (KJV) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I agree and dealt so with this very verse in another text. All of this above isn't about memorizing doctrine and written scripture. It comes when the dead letter becomes a LIVING WORD and the eyes of your heart are enlightened

MAT 13:15 For this people's heart (the CHOSEN ONES with scripture) has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.' 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. (the disciples with the LIVING manifested SON of GOD).

There's a lot of "DULL" today, which came from the church influenced by Pagen Rome for a 1,000 years before Protestantism was even birthed. Doctrines from their written interpretation, still has 40,000 butt/nose/butt/nose denominations of sheep lined up before and after them....all claiming 'we're right and YOU'RE ALL WRONG!!!

Have a good one @rwb And if you respond again, please try to keep it shorter. I am trying also.

 

[One 2 question]

I am of the opinion that the experience for John was immersive. He was transported by the Spirit.
The first sentence in each chapter leads me to observe this. He was there.

[

Ok. So not just voices in his head as some mockingly accuse.

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[St. SteVen]

Ok. So not just voices in his head as some mockingly accuse.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Yes. Thanks.
His participation indicates to me that he was there, not just observing.

Revelation 11:1-2 NIV
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told,
“Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it,
because it has been given to the Gentiles.
They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

[

 

[One 2 question]

You told us that you dont use an actual bible for Years.
So, now you listen only to a voice in your head or voice inside yourself, that you falsely define as of God.
But the reality is, God's Holy Sirit would never lead you away from the bible.
Any real Christian knows this .. @One 2 question

Thats the reality.

Again, I recognise that it is difficult for others to comprehend that someone can live their life in Christ being led by the Holy Spirit into all truth that proceeds from the mouth of God be it found in the scriptures or way beyond it.

I was challenged by this in my infancy of faith when I needed someone to teach me, and I relied on the bible. But as I have learned to hear the Spirit of God Who teaches me directly, there's no necessity to consult others to get God's word. Again, God's words come to me directly from God through His Spirit. From time to time He uses historical figures including Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, Peter, Paul, C H Spurgeon, C S Lewis.

 

[One 2 question]

Yes. Thanks.
His participation indicates to me that he was there, not just observing.

Revelation 11:1-2 NIV
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told,
“Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it,
because it has been given to the Gentiles.
They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

[

Great point. Thanks

 

[rwb]

I am not separating "the Word" from "the Christ the Saviour". The Word gave up being 'invisible spirit' to become the visible "flesh" body of Jesus. The Holy Spirit of God then put the spirit of Christ into that "word became FLESH" body. Then, Jesus the Christ would have a WORD/GOD BODY that could be seen, and die on the cross. But the life giving holy spirit of Christ, which was in the triune man Jesus....did not die on that cross. The visible body of Jesus revealed the invisible God nature (Christ spirit) to mankind for 33 years. It was the Christ spirit DWELLING IN Adam which made Adam the first "son of GOD".

LUK 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

I think it was you who pointed out that the "spirit of Christ" was IN the prophets when they spoke in 1Pet 1:11. I am of the persuasion that the spirit of Christ did not dwell in them, but spoke through them when they were giving a prophetic word.
Just my opinion, but it works for me.

Christ didn't give up being the Word to become human flesh. He was a living soul, fully man, and fully God, through the Holy Spirit in Him. The Spirit in Him did not leave Him when He became a man.

I agree, the Spirit was not IN the prophets of Old, but according to Scripture, they were moved by the Spirit WITH them and wrote.

2 Peter 1:21 (KJV) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Two different Greek words for "received" above. These affect my understanding of UR and OSAS and Calvinism for spirit salvation, versus a progressive Arminianism soul salvation of four steps forward & two step backslide. Spirit salvation gets you into heaven (inherited crown). Soul salvation determines your rewards after entering (throw down your crowns of conquest earned here and now). And yes, predestination is spelled out above also as to being 'born' again by God's will period. Just an overall paradigm FYI.

My understanding of salvation is that it is the gift of God alone and that man possesses eternal life through their spirit from that moment forward. Salvation is also on-going (work out salvation, not work for) because man possessing eternal life of his spirit through the Spirit of Christ in them, is also being saved from everlasting mortal & spirit death that shall come at the Judgment Day, when man will either have part in the Second Death (LOF) or having their name recorded in the book of life, possess a resurrected physical immortal & incorruptible body than shall be with Christ forever on the new earth.

The word received is not two different words, because both are derived from the same root. Those receiving Him NOT were not willing to associate with Christ. While those who DID receive Him are accepting of Him and being amazed, they readily accept Him.

G3880
from G3844 and G2983; to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy, to assume an office; figuratively, to learn:—receive, take (unto, with).

G2983
accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, × when I call, catch, come on (× unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (× after), take (away, up).

All of these definitions fit my paradigm when applied to the invisible character of God. Character which was was visibly manifested in the physical body of Jesus. A Jesus who was led of 'the Spirit of Christ' dwelling IN Him. He was not led by The Holy Spirit of God, which was always UPON him in scripture.

Man possesses the breath that makes them physically alive through the spirit in them. Every human with body and spirit is a living sou. Christ also possessed physical life when He was physically born through the Holy Spirit in Him. This is how Jesus is distinguished from natural man with natural spirit (breath of life), and why Jesus NEVER had to be born again to possess eternal life of His spirit.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Matthew 1:20 (KJV) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (mortal body of flesh & blood) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (spirit) and man became a living soul (complete human with body + spirit).

Same for us believers who have the spirit of christ (lower case for us) dwelling in our bodies today. Jesus today is the invisible head of His body, as He sits on the throne today. But WE are His many membered visible body on earth today. We are His "living stones" temple and He is our head (sg).

Man doesn't cease having natural spirit as long as the breath of life is in them. When we are born again through the Spirit sent from Christ, we also have the Holy Spirit in us, Who will never leave or forsake us. When our natural breath (spirit) leaves our mortal body of flesh & blood it returns to God Who gave it, still a living soul in heaven no longer having human form.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 6:9 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hebrews 12:23 (KJV) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

I agree and dealt so with this very verse in another text. All of this above isn't about memorizing doctrine and written scripture. It comes when the dead letter becomes a LIVING WORD and the eyes of your heart are enlightened

Amen!

Have a good one @rwb And if you respond again, please try to keep it shorter. I am trying also.

Hoping your day(s) shall be blessed. Trying to be brief, but thorough, I know that isn't easy.

 

[St. SteVen]

Christ didn't give up being the Word to become human flesh.

I think that's the wrong way to look at it.

What do we know about the Word?
- In the beginning
- was with God
- was God
- became flesh

Was God > Became flesh

The Logos was not a person.
The Logos/logic/reason/plan was a thought.

Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

[

 

[rwb]

I think that's the wrong way to look at it.

What do we know about the Word?
- In the beginning
- was with God
- was God
- became flesh

Was God > Became flesh

The Logos was not a person.
The Logos/logic/reason/plan was a thought.

Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

[

I don't mean to be rude, but I'm really not interested in what you "think"! It's what you can prove from the written Word of God!