The Great Tribulation Began in 70AD and Continues to This Very Day

[Taken]

Why not? No nations willing to for the Jesus Christ's sake.

Many “Nations (people of such Nations”) have come Against ISRAEL (Her People scattered, Murdered).

When “ALL” Nations Shall come Against Christ the Lord, shall occur, IS At the Ending of His 1,000 year Reign, when they come to His Kingdom, at the influence and behest of Satan.
( no clue what “Names such Nations will at that time be calling their Nation”).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[rwb]

Of course not. But it was the general belief of the general church for about 500 years.
It is not something that is hard doctrine, but also we do not know everything do we....

The early church held many beliefs that had been passed down through tradition. They did not have the written Word of God, and therefore were dependent upon word of mouth, customs, and tradition. I believe that all that has been written must be carefully measured against the whole Bible. That's why we are instructed to search the Word of God to see if these things be true! If what was believed of Old can be proven through the Word, it is worthy to cling to that truth. But if what was thought to be truth from the days of Old cannot be biblically supported, or causes contradiction into the Word of God, it would be wise to put away those doctrines, that you not be led astray by unbiblical doctrine.

2 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

(YLT) 2Pe 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved

(CV) 2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but, thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening punishment

Strong's Greek Dictionary
32. ἄγγελος angelos (ángelos)
Search for G32 in KJVSL; in KJV; load in ESI.
ἄγγελος ángelos, ang'-el-os from ἀγγέλλω angéllō (probably derived from G71; compare G34) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.

I've posted two translations that have translated angelos messenger instead angels. They are not in error because angelos a messenger. It can be a messenger who brings glad tidings, or a messenger of Satan. Messengers can be spirit beings, or humans.

The first example of angelos as a human messenger of God who brings glad tidings is John the Baptist.

Matthew 11:10 (KJV) For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. (Mr 1:2; Lu 7:27)

Here angelos translated human messengers of John the Baptist.

Luke 7:24 (KJV) And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

Here again angelos is translated human messengers sent by Christ.

Luke 9:52 (KJV) And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

Here the word angelos is translated "the messenger of Satan", sent to afflict Paul.

2 Corinthians 12:7 (KJV) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Once again angelos translated as human messengers, who hid the spies sending them out another way so they would not be caught and kiled..

James 2:25 (KJV) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Here we find angelos has been translated angels, when it should be messengers because Christ instructs John to send the seven letters to seven churches, and calls the seven stars angels of the seven churches, who are human messengers not angels of God. Because God has appointed man to be the ministers of the churches.

Revelation 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (see vss 2:1,8,12,18; 3:1,7,14)

Majority doesn't necessarily make for truth.

The above is every version of 2 Peter 2:4
All the versions say that God cast the angels who sinned into hell or Tartarus.
But some don't believe this actually happened!

In my reading it is clear what is being taught here, they are in Hell right now.
They are bound in Hell, chained there to await judgement DAY, meaning they are not free to leave hell and roam the world and cause trouble. God knows how to chain up a spirit so it is confined in Hell.

Every human being ever to live and die physically goes into hell, the place of the dead, sheol, hades, pit, and the deepest abyss of the place of the dead, tartarus, is reserved for the human messengers of God who turned away from God to embrace the lures of the world and their own fleshly lusts.

 

[Taken]

Contrary to popular belief, the Great Tribulation is not something that will happen in the future.

Disagree.

 

[Scott Downey]

The early church held many beliefs that had been passed down through tradition. They did not have the written Word of God, and therefore were dependent upon word of mouth, customs, and tradition. I believe that all that has been written must be carefully measured against the whole Bible. That's why we are instructed to search the Word of God to see if these things be true! If what was believed of Old can be proven through the Word, it is worthy to cling to that truth. But if what was thought to be truth from the days of Old cannot be biblically supported, or causes contradiction into the Word of God, it would be wise to put away those doctrines, that you not be led astray by unbiblical doctrine.

Jesus and Paul distinguish HOLY and ELECT angels out from the rest, so we know there exists a difference between angels.

1. Matthew 25:31
   

   The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations​

   “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Mark 8:38
   For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Luke 9:26
   For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Revelation 14:10
   he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
5. 1 Timothy 5:21
   I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.
   

Psalm 103:20
Bless the Lord, you His angels, Who excel in strength, who do His word, Heeding the voice of His word.

Psalm 104
1 Bless the Lord, O my soul!
O Lord my God, You are very great:
You are clothed with honor and majesty,
2 Who cover Yourself with light as with a garment,
Who stretch out the heavens like a curtain.
3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters,
Who makes the clouds His chariot,
Who walks on the wings of the wind,
4 Who makes His angels spirits,
His [a]ministers a flame of fire.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only God's Angels are Holy and Elect
The opposite of Holy and Elect Angels is unholy and sinful Angels.
They are no longer God's angels.

The devil, Satan has his own angels.
They are capable of anything, if permitted.
God's holy Angels, fight with the devil's angels.
Your idea of men fighting with Holy Angels just makes no sense with the scriptures, as even this conflict is found as in Daniel 10.

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

And the way I view 2 Peter 2:4 is qualified by the sins that those particular angels committed.
Which also is explained by Jude 6

6 And the angels who did not keep their [a]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

That would be those angels who came down from their heavenly places and descended to the earth to be with men.

 

[Scott Downey]

Daniel has a heavenly messenger, an angel speaks to him.

Daniel 10
4 Now on the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, that is, the [c]Tigris, 5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude.

7 And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision; but a great terror fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. 8 Therefore I was left alone when I saw this great vision, and no strength remained in me; for my [d]vigor was turned to [e]frailty in me, and I retained no strength. 9 Yet I heard the sound of his words; and while I heard the sound of his words I was in a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

Prophecies Concerning Persia and Greece​

10 Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. 11 And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling.

12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.”

15 When he had spoken such words to me, I [f]turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And suddenly, one having the likeness of the [g]sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke, saying to him who stood before me, “My lord, because of the vision my sorrows have [h]overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength. 17 For how can this servant of my lord talk with you, my lord? As for me, no strength remains in me now, nor is any breath left in me.”

18 Then again, the one having the likeness of a man touched me and strengthened me. 19 And he said, “O man greatly beloved, fear not! Peace be to you; be strong, yes, be strong!”

So when he spoke to me I was strengthened, and said, “Let my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.”

20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

 

[rwb]

Jesus and Paul distinguish HOLY and ELECT angels out from the rest, so we know there exists a difference between angels.

1. Matthew 25:31
   

   The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations​

   “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Mark 8:38
   For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Luke 9:26
   For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Revelation 14:10
   he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
5. 1 Timothy 5:21
   I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

Is it angels of God, spirits that come with Him when He comes again, or is it messengers of God, spirits of men made perfect who are with Him in heaven after physical death? Or is it both the heavenly hosts who are His ministering spirits and the perfect spirits of just men who both come with Christ when He comes again?

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

When we have been born again, spiritually we are with both an innumerable company of God's holy angels, and spirits of just men made perfect.

Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Revelation 14:10 (KJV) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone In the presence of the holy angels, [MESSENGERS, that are both MINISTERING SPIRITS & SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT] and in the presence of the Lamb:

Elect messengers of the Church, those ordained of God to rule over the body of believers. This is the only verse I could find that implies ministering spirits of God are among the elect of God.

1 Timothy 5:21 (KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, [MESSENGERS, SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT] that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

1 Peter 5:1 (KJV) The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

1 Timothy 5:17 (KJV) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

In the spirit (pun intended LOL) of brevity, I will stop here for now.

 

[rwb]

Only God's Angels are Holy and Elect
The opposite of Holy and Elect Angels is unholy and sinful Angels.
They are no longer God's angels.

The devil, Satan has his own angels.
They are capable of anything, if permitted.
God's holy Angels, fight with the devil's angels.
Your idea of men fighting with Holy Angels just makes no sense with the scriptures, as even this conflict is found as in Daniel 10.

Angels are not among the elect of God. The elect of God are not spirit beings, the elect of God are man who are chosen from mankind to the inheritance of eternal life. The function of the ministering spirits; angels of God is to minister to the heirs of salvation, the elect according to grace.

Hebrews 1:4-5 (KJV) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[Scott Downey]

Well there you go. God's angels are both holy and elect.
Those non elect are not God's holy and elect angels, they are Satan's angels.
When Christ returns all His holy angels are with Him, as are all His Holy people.
So God, Christ, Holy Spirit, men and angels are there at the judgment.

What are the elect angels? | GotQuestions.org

What are the elect angels? What does it mean that some of the angels are elect?

www.gotquestions.org

When God created the angels, they were all good just like the rest of creation (Genesis 1:31). Angels were holy and faithfully devoted to the Lord, but this changed when Satan rebelled against God (Isaiah 14:12–15; Ezekiel 28:16). Many angels followed Satan’s rebellion and thus became “fallen” angels, or demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 12:3–4). In contrast, the angels who remained faithful to the Lord are known as “holy angels” or “elect angels” (Mark 8:38; 1 Timothy 5:21).

The Greek word for “elect” found in 1 Timothy 5:21 refers to being chosen or picked. This would indicate that God chose some angels not to fall with Satan. The same word in the verse, eklekton, is used elsewhere for Christians who are elected and chosen by God in salvation (Romans 8:33; Titus 1:1). The word suggests that the elect angels, like elect people, were chosen by God and cannot lose their elect position. None of the elect angels will rebel against God or lose their chosen status, just as Christians cannot lose their salvation as God’s elect children (John 10:28; Romans 8:38–39). Secure in their standing before the Lord, elect angels cannot sin or go against the commands of God but will remain faithful to the Lord forever.

Of course, the fact that the holy angels are “elect” does not imply they are “saved” in the same way that Christians are. Both angels and Christians are chosen and elected by the Lord, but only humans can experience the new birth, forgiveness, and other aspects of salvation. The elect angels cannot experience forgiveness, since they have never sinned. Furthermore, Jesus died for humanity, not for angels. He took on human flesh and came to save mankind from their sins; His sacrifice was not to save the fallen angels (Hebrews 2:16). Angels “long to look into these things,” and are fascinated by the fact that the Son of God laid down His life to save humans (1 Peter 1:12). In this way, the election of angels is different from the election of Christians.

In addition to calling them “chosen” or “elect” angels, Scripture also designates them as good and “holy angels” (Mark 8:38). Worshipping and serving God are the main purposes of the elect angels (Revelation 7:11). Like Christians, elect angels are servants of God who seek to bring Him glory (Revelation 22:9). God uses the elect angels to carry out His will and to provide ministry to believers (Hebrews 1:14). Throughout history, elect angels have been a part of God’s plan in delivering messages (Daniel 8:16; 9:21; Luke 1:19, 26), carrying out judgment (Genesis 19:13; Psalm 78:49; Revelation 14:17–20), and providing encouragement to God’s people (Acts 27:23).

The elect angels have the special purpose of serving God and doing as He commands. The elect angels minister to believers today, and they will also play a major part in the events of the end times. The power and position of the elect angels are awe-inspiring, but the Bible teaches that Jesus’ followers are more blessed than even they, since believers “have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority” (Colossians 2:10, BSB).

 

[Davy]

What is in error? That the Messiah arrived on the first day of the 70th week to be baptized in the Jordan to begin His ministry? Or that He was “cut off” in the midst of the week (which of course could only take place within the last 7 years of the prophecy)?

For the false doctrine you have believed to be Biblical, the Daniel 9:26 verse would have to say Messiah was "cut off" after the 70th week, and not the 69th week. And this is simple common sense. So why do you support a doctrine that is a LIE and is impossible to prove?

 

[Davy]

yes you are right, i probably did not read it correctly, Jay is not often mistaken, he was maybe refering to the troubles post millenium but I am not certain, as for the dates ( years he mentioned, no one knows precisely but we can have a range. In my case with what I saw we are in what is called Jacobs trouble, within this generation, tribulation is coming out way, the signs are multiplying and are clear.

Blessings

The seven main SIGNS of the end leading up to Christ's future return is what He was giving His disciples (and us) while upon the Mount of Olives per Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Those 2 Chapters specifically follow the events of the SEALS of Revelation 6. That means a parallel study with the Seals of Rev.6. And the last 3 Trumpet - Woe periods act as an anchor for the timeline of where those seven Signs of the End fit. Therefore, Lord Jesus told us already in His Word what will happen at the End, it's just a matter of listening to Him in His Word.

 

[CTK]

For the false doctrine you have believed to be Biblical, the Daniel 9:26 verse would have to say Messiah was "cut off" after the 70th week, and not the 69th week. And this is simple common sense. So why do you support a doctrine that is a LIE and is impossible to prove?

That does not make any sense.
26“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself. So, the first 7 weeks were completed - the first 7 weeks or 49 literal years, then, we have the second section of 62 weeks or 434 literal years. This leaves only one week or 7 literal years left in the 70 weeks of years prophecy or 490 literal years. Verse 26 tells us that "AFTER THE 62 YEARS SECTION THE MESSIAH WILL BE CUT OFF." So the Messiah must be crucified in the period following the end of the 62 week section. It could not say the Messiah was cut off AFTER THE 70TH WEEK BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN HE WOULD BE CRUCIFIED AFTER THE END OF THE 490 YEAR PROPHECY. He could only be cut off after the 62 and 7 years sections or 69 weeks because there is only one week left.

 

[Scott Downey]

More on the elect angels

What does the Bible say about elect angels?

And Christians will judge angels, that would be the bad ones, Satan's angels.
Paul distinguishes judging angels from the things pertaining to this life, which points out they are not human beings.

1 Cor 6

1 Corinthians 6​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

Do Not Sue the Brethren​

6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have [a]judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

 

[Davy]

That does not make any sense.
26“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself. So, the first 7 weeks were completed - the first 7 weeks or 49 literal years, then, we have the second section of 62 weeks or 434 literal years. This leaves only one week or 7 literal years left in the 70 weeks of years prophecy or 490 literal years. Verse 26 tells us that "AFTER THE 62 YEARS SECTION THE MESSIAH WILL BE CUT OFF." So the Messiah must be crucified in the period following the end of the 62 week section. It could not say the Messiah was cut off AFTER THE 70TH WEEK BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN HE WOULD BE CRUCIFIED AFTER THE END OF THE 490 YEAR PROPHECY. He could only be cut off after the 62 and 7 years sections or 69 weeks because there is only one week left.

What I said makes perfect... sense.

The doctrine of men you are claiming about the 70th week is that the final 70th week was part of Christ's Ministry. What specific event ended... Christ's Ministry at His 1st coming? His crucifixion, which is what the idea of Messiah (Christ) being "cut off" is what it means in the Daniel 9:26 verse.

Therefore, for the 70th week to be part of Christ's Ministry, Christ's crucifixion should have been the completion of the 70th week. But that is NOT what the Daniel 9:26 verse states. It instead says Messiah (Christ) would be "cut off" after the 69th week. The Daniel 9:26 mention of the 7 weeks is NOT about the 70th week of verse 27. That 7 weeks of Dan.9:26 is about the 1st period in the 70 weeks prophecy when the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem went out after the Babylon captivity had ended.

 

[CTK]

What I said makes perfect... sense.

The doctrine of men you are claiming about the 70th week is that the final 70th week was part of Christ's Ministry. What specific event ended... Christ's Ministry at His 1st coming? His crucifixion, which is what the idea of Messiah (Christ) being "cut off" is what it means in the Daniel 9:26 verse.

Therefore, for the 70th week to be part of Christ's Ministry, Christ's crucifixion should have been the completion of the 70th week. But that is NOT what the Daniel 9:26 verse states. It instead says Messiah (Christ) would be "cut off" after the 69th week. The Daniel 9:26 mention of the 7 weeks is NOT about the 70th week of verse 27. That 7 weeks of Dan.9:26 is about the 1st period in the 70 weeks prophecy when the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem went out after the Babylon captivity had ended.

Very well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What I said makes perfect... sense.

The doctrine of men you are claiming about the 70th week is that the final 70th week was part of Christ's Ministry. What specific event ended... Christ's Ministry at His 1st coming? His crucifixion, which is what the idea of Messiah (Christ) being "cut off" is what it means in the Daniel 9:26 verse.

Therefore, for the 70th week to be part of Christ's Ministry, Christ's crucifixion should have been the completion of the 70th week. But that is NOT what the Daniel 9:26 verse states. It instead says Messiah (Christ) would be "cut off" after the 69th week. The Daniel 9:26 mention of the 7 weeks is NOT about the 70th week of verse 27. That 7 weeks of Dan.9:26 is about the 1st period in the 70 weeks prophecy when the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem went out after the Babylon captivity had ended.

You are failing English 101. For the Messiah to be cut off after the 69th week is not equivalent to Him being cut off at the completion of the 69th week. You don't even know what the word "after" means. It doesn't mean "at the end of". You try to put His crucifixion at the very end of the 69th week, but that is not AFTER the 69th week.

If I told you that I'm going to go out to eat somewhere after I am doing working does that mean I'm saying that I'm going out to eat right at the end of the time I'm working or some time after I'm done working?

 

[Earburner]

Contrary to popular belief, the Great Tribulation is not something that will happen in the future. It began in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and continues to this very day.

Here is the famous verse:



Since context is important for determining the precise timing, it is always a good idea to review the surrounding verses:



Matthew 24:15 is where most stumble. No effort is made to properly unpack the rich amount of information contained within the verse. Let us break it down.

See
The first mistake most folks make is interpreting the word 'see' as 'seeing physically with the eyes'. We now go to the original Greek:

Strong's Greek 3708: horaó
Properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

Strong's Greek: 3708. ὁράω (horaó) -- To see, perceive, attend to

As we can 'see', there is more than one meaning. So how do we know which meaning is intended? Thankfully, the Holy Spirit gave us the answer right in the verse itself.

let him understand
The instructions are clear. We are to interpret the word 'see' as well as the entire verse itself, through the lens of understanding. In other words, with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

So, what is it that the reader is to understand?

abomination of desolation
The Abomination of Desolation was the Crucifixion that ultimately led to the desolation, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. This was prophesied many times in the Old Testament, especially in the Book of Daniel. Therefore, the reader of Daniel was to understand what the Abomination of Desolation was and when it was to occur.

View attachment 69121​

All of the dates were precisely laid out ahead of time. Anyone living in Daniel's time, that had a good grasp of their ancient manuscripts, could have easily deciphered it.

Simply put, when the reader 'saw' as in spiritually understood the meaning of the Abomination of Desolation, they would know that when the Crucifixion occurred, they would have roughly forty-five years to move away from Jerusalem before her desolation. The following verses make it absolutely clear that the desolation was to occur in Judea:



God was kind enough to give the residents plenty of time to start their lives over.

And here we are, thousands of years later after the Great Tribulation began. The only thing left for the world to experience is the Man of Sin to be revealed at end of the world:



Again, the phrase 'those days' is referring to the period of time from 70AD to a yet future end point. There is no coming Great Tribulation. We are in it! Many verses attest to this:



Tribulation has been happening all along. And as a believer in the Harpazo, I would also include a Rapture event coming before the sun is darkened, etc.

The great irony in all of this is that both sides are technically correct. The Harpazo does come after the Great Tribulation *AND YET* the next event that is coming is the Harpazo itself because we are already in the Great Tribulation. Everyone wins... almost.

AMEN! I do believe that I have not seen many here with your understanding. I was beginning to think that I myself, who does believe in likeness as you, was not going to find many of us of like mind on this site.

Thank you for being direct, concise and informative with references.
Earburner

 

[Earburner]

Hi @IndianaRob . You brought up a perfect verse that actually proves the point of this thread.

Let's look at a more complete picture of the context:



As the title of this thread suggests, we have been living in the 'last days' since 70AD. Therefore, 'last days' and 'Great Tribulation' are synonymous and have been going on all this time.

Jesus promised he would send the Comforter. He will 'pour out his Spirit upon all flesh'. Some will accept it, some will not.

Here we see it again:



Jesus sends the Holy Ghost. Some will prophecy. Note that simply reading Scripture out loud can be considered prophesying as so many Christians do today.



God is always showing signs and wonders. This we know as Christians.



Acts 2:20 is referring to a yet future point in time that we have not arrived at yet.



For thousands of years now, whoever calls on the name of the Lord is saved.

Life is good!

To all of that, I would like to add the prophetic scriptures, with notation, as revealed in KJV Dan. 9:27.
[27] And he [Jesus] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [70th]: and in the midst of the week [3.5 yrs] he [Jesus' Sacrifice] shall cause the [temple] sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations [continued animal sacrifices] he [Jesus] shall make it [the temple] desolate [destroyed-void of God], even until the consummation [the end of time], and that determined [vs. 24- the six works of God] shall be POURED [out] upon the desolate [those who are void of God].

 

[covenantee]

abomination of desolation

For those who recognize that Scripture interprets Scripture, the abomination of desolation is clearly identified in the parallel synoptic verse of Luke 21:20.

It was the Roman armies, pagan abominations to the Jews, who desolated Jerusalem.

 

[David in NJ]

For those who recognize that Scripture interprets Scripture, the abomination of desolation is clearly identified in the parallel synoptic verse of Luke 21:20.

It was the Roman armies, pagan abominations to the Jews, who desolated Jerusalem.

Scripture did NOT say that the AoD was the Roman armies.

Daniel, LORD Jesus, apostle Paul and apostle John declare the AoD as the "man of sin" = the Antichrist and all who follow him

70AD was the fulfillment of the LORD's Prophecy = Matt 24:1-2
Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

 

[David in NJ]

To all of that, I would like to add the prophetic scriptures, with notation, as revealed in KJV Dan. 9:27.
[27] And he [Jesus] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [70th]: and in the midst of the week [3.5 yrs] he [Jesus' Sacrifice] shall cause the [temple] sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations [continued animal sacrifices] he [Jesus] shall make it [the temple] desolate [destroyed-void of God], even until the consummation [the end of time], and that determined [vs. 24- the six works of God] shall be POURED [out] upon the desolate [those who are void of God].

Please read again Daniel ch9

Two distinct 'princes' here = the Savior and those of antichrist world government(s)

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,