IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Doug]

It's good that you're starting to see the truth.


However, that's still an illogical deduction. There was only one Christian faith, just like there was only one Judaism faith. Your reasoning goes against what Paul wrote and against Jesus and God! Galatians 1:1 (GNB):

(1) From Paul, whose call to be an apostle did not come from human beings or by human means, but from Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from death.​

An apostle is just someone who has been sent, an ambassador or messenger for whoever sent him/her. Jesus' chosen disciples (who he chose before his death and resurrection) and Paul (who he chose after his resurrection) were all sent by Jesus (after his resurrection). Jesus was also an apostle, because he had been sent by God - Hebrews 3:1 (WEB):

(1) Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus;​

There is one faith, but more than one gospel and more than one church

I never said Paul was not an apostle just that he was an apostle for the Gentiles and for the body of Christ. The body of Christ wasnt formed until Jesus formed in this dispensation. Jesus revealed the body of Christ thru Paul and gave Paul instructions in regard to its operation and purpose.

Paul could not have been an apostle in the church headed by Peter because he didnt meet ALL of the qualifications set forth in Acts 1:21-22. The church headed by Peter could not be the only church because the body of Christ was a new church formed by Christ. As an example, Members of Peters church will inherit the earth/ members of the body will inherit the heavens
In Petrs church there were Levitical priests/ in the body of Christ there are bishops and deacons
Peters church operated under the law/ the body of Christ under grace
Water baptism remitted sins/ Paul was not sent to baptize in the body of Christ

 

[keithr]

There is one faith, but more than one gospel and more than one church

Wrong! There is only one Gospel and both Peter and Paul taught the same Gospel. Peter and the apostles:

Acts 5:42 UASV+

(42) And every day in the temple and from house to house they kept right on teaching and proclaiming the good news that the Christ was Jesus.​

MKJV

(42) And every day in the temple, and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching the gospel: Jesus Christ.​

Paul:
1 Corinthians 15:1-11 ISV

(1) Now I'm making known to you, brothers, the gospel that I proclaimed to you, which you accepted, on which you have taken your stand,​

(2) and by which you are also being saved if you hold firmly to the message I proclaimed to you—unless, of course, your faith was worthless.​

(3) For I passed on to you the most important points that I received: The Messiah died for our sins according to the Scriptures,​

(4) he was buried, he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures—and is still alive!—​

(5) and he was seen by Cephas, and then by the Twelve.​

(6) After that, he was seen by more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.​

(7) Next he was seen by James, then by all the apostles,​

(8) and finally he was seen by me, as though I were born abnormally late.​

(9) For I am the least of the apostles and not even fit to be called an apostle because I persecuted God's church.​

(10) But by God's grace I am what I am, and his grace shown to me was not wasted. Instead, I worked harder than all the others—not I, of course, but God's grace that was with me.​

(11) So, whether it was I or the others, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.​

Though Paul said that he was "the least of the apostles", he nevertheless claimed that he was one of the apostles, an apostle sent by Jesus just like all the apostles.

Barnes' Notes on verse 11 says:

Therefore, whether it were I or they - I or the other apostles. It is comparatively immaterial by whom it was done. The establishment of the truth is the great matter; and the question by whom it is done is one of secondary importance.​

​

So we preach - So we all preach. We all defend the same great doctrines; we all insist on the fact that the Lord Jesus died and rose; and this doctrine you all have believed. This doctrine is confirmed by all who preach; and this enters into the faith of all who believe. The design of Paul is to affirm that the doctrines which he here refers to were great, undeniable, and fundamental doctrines of Christianity; that they were proclaimed by “all” the ministers of the gospel, and believed by all Christians. They were, therefore, immensely important to all; and they must enter essentially into the hopes of all.​

​

Paul could not have been an apostle in the church headed by Peter because he didnt meet ALL of the qualifications set forth in Acts 1:21-22. The church headed by Peter could not be the only church because the body of Christ was a new church formed by Christ.

You're just repeating yourself, so I will too! There is only one foundation on which Jesus founded his Church, and he has only founded one Church. We are all brothers in Christ, and have the same hope, the same faith, the same Lord, the same God, and we should all have the same beliefs/doctrine. Ephesians 4:4-6 WEB

(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling;​

(5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism,​

(6) one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.​

Ephesians 4:14 WEB

(14) that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;​

Your doctrine is in error; you have wandered from the Truth. As James wrote, James 5:19-20 WEB

(19) Brothers, if any among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back,​

(20) let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.​

I and others have tried to help you see your error, but it's pointless just repeating ourselves over and over, so I'll stop discussing this now.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Rapture Before Israel's Great Tribulation?:
Yes:

God's Great GRACE Departure! ​

​

Side discussion: Are there Two Gospels?:
Yes:

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery​

+

I have decided to follow Jesus?​

​

Amen.

Precious brother @Doug, keep up the good work For The LORD!

(1 Corinthians 15:58 cf 2 Timothy 2:12 AV)​

 

[Doug]

Wrong! There is only one Gospel and both Peter and Paul taught the same Gospel. Peter and the apostles:

Acts 5:42 UASV+
(42) And every day in the temple and from house to house they kept right on teaching and proclaiming the good news that the Christ was Jesus.MKJV
(42) And every day in the temple, and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching the gospel: Jesus Christ.

Look at what this verse says.......................[Act 5:42 KJV] 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ........................This verse only says that he preached Christ..........what did he teach and preach? No doubt Peter and Paul preached Christ, but what they preached ABOUT him differed.

Please show me a verse from the 4 gospels or Acts where Peter preaches salvation just like Paul. Where does Peter preach salvation for all freely by the death and resurrection and imputed righteousness thru faith in Christ.

 

[Doug]

(3) For I passed on to you the most important points that I received: The Messiah died for our sins according to the Scriptures,(4) he was buried, he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures—an

Scripture foretold Christ"s death and resurrection, but not all it accomplished
The prophets did not say how that we would be saved freely by his grace, not of works, not thru Israel, but only by Christ's death and resurrection

 

[Doug]

(11) So, whether it was I or the others, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

As I said both Peter and Paul preached Christ.
They both preached the resurrection. That is what these verses are talking about, they speak about the resurrection
[1Co 15:4-6, 11 KJV] 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. ... 11 Therefore whether [it were] I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

Whether it were I or they, whether Paul or Peter and the disciples, they all preached the resurrection.
However, what they preached about the resurrection was different

Peter preached Christ rose to sit on David's throne in the kingdom..........................[Act 2:30 KJV] 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Paul preached Christ rose for our justification.........................[Rom 4:25 KJV] 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[Doug]

Wrong! There is only one Gospel and both Peter and Paul taught the same Gospel. Peter and the apostles:

Acts 5:42 UASV+

(42) And every day in the temple and from house to house they kept right on teaching and proclaiming the good news that the Christ was Jesus.​

MKJV

(42) And every day in the temple, and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching the gospel: Jesus Christ.​

Paul:
1 Corinthians 15:1-11 ISV

(1) Now I'm making known to you, brothers, the gospel that I proclaimed to you, which you accepted, on which you have taken your stand,​

(2) and by which you are also being saved if you hold firmly to the message I proclaimed to you—unless, of course, your faith was worthless.​

(3) For I passed on to you the most important points that I received: The Messiah died for our sins according to the Scriptures,​

(4) he was buried, he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures—and is still alive!—​

(5) and he was seen by Cephas, and then by the Twelve.​

(6) After that, he was seen by more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.​

(7) Next he was seen by James, then by all the apostles,​

(8) and finally he was seen by me, as though I were born abnormally late.​

(9) For I am the least of the apostles and not even fit to be called an apostle because I persecuted God's church.​

(10) But by God's grace I am what I am, and his grace shown to me was not wasted. Instead, I worked harder than all the others—not I, of course, but God's grace that was with me.​

(11) So, whether it was I or the others, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.​

Though Paul said that he was "the least of the apostles", he nevertheless claimed that he was one of the apostles, an apostle sent by Jesus just like all the apostles.

Barnes' Notes on verse 11 says:

Therefore, whether it were I or they - I or the other apostles. It is comparatively immaterial by whom it was done. The establishment of the truth is the great matter; and the question by whom it is done is one of secondary importance.​

​

So we preach - So we all preach. We all defend the same great doctrines; we all insist on the fact that the Lord Jesus died and rose; and this doctrine you all have believed. This doctrine is confirmed by all who preach; and this enters into the faith of all who believe. The design of Paul is to affirm that the doctrines which he here refers to were great, undeniable, and fundamental doctrines of Christianity; that they were proclaimed by “all” the ministers of the gospel, and believed by all Christians. They were, therefore, immensely important to all; and they must enter essentially into the hopes of all.​

​

You're just repeating yourself, so I will too! There is only one foundation on which Jesus founded his Church, and he has only founded one Church. We are all brothers in Christ, and have the same hope, the same faith, the same Lord, the same God, and we should all have the same beliefs/doctrine. Ephesians 4:4-6 WEB

(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling;​

(5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism,​

(6) one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.​

Ephesians 4:14 WEB

(14) that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;​

Your doctrine is in error; you have wandered from the Truth. As James wrote, James 5:19-20 WEB

(19) Brothers, if any among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back,​

(20) let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.​

I and others have tried to help you see your error, but it's pointless just repeating ourselves over and over, so I'll stop discussing this now.

we all insist on the fact that the Lord Jesus died and rose; and this doctrine you all have believed.

We dont agree on how it was preached

Paul is to affirm that the doctrines which he here refers to were great, undeniable, and fundamental doctrines of Christianity; that they were proclaimed by “all” the ministers of the gospel, and believed by all Christians

Peter and Paul did not preach the same doctrines

 

[Doug]

I and others have tried to help you see your error, but it's pointless just repeating ourselves over and over, so I'll stop discussing this now

Up to you
i cant but conclude that you are making an empty assertion that you cant support by showing where Peter specifically says salvation is for all, being freely justified by faith in his death and resurrection for our justification

 

[Doug]

Rapture Before Israel's Great Tribulation?:
Yes:

God's Great GRACE Departure! ​

​

Side discussion: Are there Two Gospels?:
Yes:

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery​

+

I have decided to follow Jesus?​

​

Amen.

Precious brother @Doug, keep up the good work For The LORD!

(1 Corinthians 15:58 cf 2 Timothy 2:12 AV)​

Thanks

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Thanks

You are Quite Welcome! Here's one I forgot about from the old archives:

Agreement With The Gospel​

Be Blessed!

 

[keithr]

Please show me a verse from the 4 gospels or Acts where Peter preaches salvation just like Paul. Where does Peter preach salvation for all freely by the death and resurrection and imputed righteousness thru faith in Christ.

Acts 4:8-12 WEB

(8) Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “You rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,​

(9) if we are examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed,​

(10) be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in him does this man stand here before you whole.​

(11) He is ‘the stone which was regarded as worthless by you, the builders, which has become the head of the corner.’​

(12) There is salvation in none other, for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, by which we must be saved!”​

Note that Peter confirmed that he agreed with what Paul and Silvanus preached:

2 Peter 3:15 WEB

(15) Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you;​

1 Peter 5:12 WEB

(12) Through Silvanus, our faithful brother, as I consider him, I have written to you briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God in which you stand.​

(Okay, this is really my last post in this discussion! )

 

[Doug]

Acts 4:8-12 WEB

(8) Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “You rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,​

(9) if we are examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed,​

(10) be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in him does this man stand here before you whole.​

(11) He is ‘the stone which was regarded as worthless by you, the builders, which has become the head of the corner.’​

(12) There is salvation in none other, for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, by which we must be saved!”​

Note that Peter confirmed that he agreed with what Paul and Silvanus preached:

2 Peter 3:15 WEB

(15) Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you;​

1 Peter 5:12 WEB

(12) Through Silvanus, our faithful brother, as I consider him, I have written to you briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God in which you stand.​

(Okay, this is really my last post in this discussion! )

There is nothing in this passage that states anything about salvation by faith in his blood / nothing of him dying for our sins/nothing of him being raised for our justification. How can you say there is? How can you say Peter agrees with all Paul preached? You do realize that at the time of this passage Paul wasnt preaching anything, he wasnt saved until Acts 9. You are reading into this passage what you want to be there.

The cross wasnt being preached yet. What was being preached was FAITH IN HIS NAME. . For salvation they had believe that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God.......................[Jhn 20:31 KJV] 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Look at Acts 4..........................[Act 4:10 KJV] 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole......................What does it say? BY THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST that man was healed Peter didnt preach the crucifixion for salvation just as an accusation.

[Act 4:12 KJV] 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved...................Peter was preaching his name for salvation not the cross. NONE OTHER NAME

That's fine if you are done. I just hope you will see that Peter and Paul preached different gospels. We arent saved just by his name but by his blood.

 

[Fred J]

In regard to Peter and John going into the temple at the hour of prayer......I did think of Daniel praying 3 times a day and looked up this verse.........................[Psalm 55:17 KJV] 17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice................while not in the law as far as I know it is establlished in the Psalms

In the past yes, they needed to pray in the Temple, where GOD was present in the Most Holy Place.

But since when Christ died on the Cross that day, the Temple curtain torn into two where GOD's dwelling no longer there.

Since GOD's dwelling according to HIS New Covenant is in all born again where their body is the Temple of GOD.

Therefore Peter and John know better even though they pray in the Temple or in their home, they pray in spirit and truth.

No longer like the unsaved Jews, but they blend in as to a Jew they behave like a Jew, even in the Temple or home, just to take the opportunity to minister unto them the Gospel.

So don't mix up what is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Holy Ghost is ghost, they vary.

Thank you.

 

[Fred J]

They both preached Christ
They both were chosen by the Lord Jesus
They would have areas of doctrine in conflict like circumcision/ baptism

Apparently the 'conflict' is in you lacking of wisdom from above, unable to piece together the scripture and their doctrine in context.

In the manner of 'circumcision' done to Timothy, coz junior was a travel companion for Paul who minister to Jews as well.

And scripturally we know how the Jew are completely resentful towards the uncircumcised and the unclean Samaritans.

So with uncircumcised Timothy how can Paul minister to the Jews, who'll be distracted to junior's presence, and the message wasted?

Whether circumcised or uncircumcised, in the New Covenant it doesn't change a person or a thing, since the Law is already 'abolished'.

Next, in the manner of 'baptism', after Christ all the Apostles performed 'water baptism' in all nation.

Paul himself water baptized a few, even though himself confessed that Christ did not send him to 'baptize'.

If you're unable to 'perceive' this repetition reasonings, then move on with yours, for there's no point in persuading.

 

[Fred J]

Right
Just pointing out that Peter did up to that point still kept the law

Meantime he too kept the Law for the sake of the unsaved Jews since being stationed within Israel, especially Jerusalem.

Moreover Peter have a 'fresh' start after Christ, now ministering to the Gentiles, and at first unsure of the Gentile's standing with Christ.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

I would say it is true every Christian was told they should expect to suffer troubles. The world will hate us as it hated him.

However, I don't believe that's something that dismisses God's saving us from the great tribulation.

I would think those who deny our being caught up before God's wrath falls upon Earth would have to prove God said we will suffer through it.

 

[Fred J]

I also think Petr having the keys plays a part here

Yes, he's the 'rock' on whom Christ built His church until today, so scripturally and doctrine wise what Peter have approved, is also approved in Heaven.

By the way, not the saint Peter's basilica man made building founded on Peter's tomb is Christ's church.

But rather all true born again into that 'one body of Christ' as a 'gathering' in the New Testament, is Christ's church built upon Peter.

A 'prominent figure' head of the church of all nation, 'overseer' deciding things and matters of the church founded on the Apostles and Prophets.

And we who are 'founded' Biblically and born again likewise (2Timothy3:16&17), are the running forth church to date.

They gather in these beautiful basilicas and buildings in all nation as their prideful church and clergies.

But all true born again, even two of three 'gathered' in Christ's name He's in their midst, as their humble church and elders.

 

[Fred J]

In regard to me citing Acts 3:1

I considered what you said and removed it. I want to be as accurate as possible in handling the word.
Here is what I wrote in it's place.......Here arises another problem, in the church in Jerusalem overseen by Peter, there are no pastors or deacons, but rather, the Levitical priesthood. Peter's church worshipped in the temple......... [Acts 5:42 KJV] 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
[Acts 2:46 KJV] 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
............

You're adding to the scripture 'Levitical priesthood' and 'worshiped in the Temple'.

Are all the Apostles 'Levi' and ordained to serve in the Temple?

When moreover there's already 'Levi' priests and high priest serving in the Temple 'daily'.

Why to you 'they met in one accord' cannot mean that in one accord to minister the Gospel for one?

Two, to win the heart of the unsaved Jews behave as fellow Jews and take part in their proceedings?

Then again, what was Jesus after 30s doing in the Temple prior to this, 'Levitical priesthood' and 'worshiped in the Temple'?

Even when He was 12 years old what was documented that He did in the Temple?

He went missing and not lost among the crowd, and His parents forgot about Him a day's walk.

This could not have happened if He did 'Levitical priesthood' and 'worshiped in the Temple' with His parents that day.

Therefore you've made your own assumption 'copy' and 'paste' dogma that they met in the Temple in this and that manner.

How about the 'synagogues' then, anymore of your own assumption dogma?

For the record, just after Christ, the Apostles and church met in 'one accord' at 'homes' of believers, not the Temple.

In the Temple the Apostles probably followed the manner of the unsaved Jews and their proceedings, but on the other hand in 'one accord' for the Gospel rather.

 

[keithr]

I'm reminded of a school divinity lesson that I had (many years ago!), when the teacher asked, "The New Testament has the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. So how many Gospels are there?" My classmates fell into the trap and said "Four". So the teacher repeated the question, stating the full titles of the books, "We have The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, The Gospel According to Saint Mark, The Gospel According to Saint Luke and The Gospel According to Saint John. How many Gospels are there?" My classmates again said "Four" - they weren't paying enough attention to the details! The answer, of course, is that there is just one Gospel, and the four books were written by four different people giving their perspective of the Gospel, which they wrote for different target audiences. Similarly the writings of Peter and Paul give their perspectives of the Gospel, and even though new things were being learnt, it was the same one Gospel - the same Good News centred on Jesus being the Messiah.

Paul taught about the blood of Christ in 1 Corinthians, Ephesians and Romans. 1 Corinthians was written in around 53-57 AD, Romans was written in around 57-58 AD, Ephesians in around 60-64 AD. Hebrews was written between 64 and 70 AD. Therefore there is no reason to think that the Hebrews were not part of "our church" or that they believed differently to the non-Hebrew members of the Church.

Estimated dates for the writing of the "Gospels" varies, but a recent source (January 2024) says:

Modern scholarship tends to date Mark's Gospel around A.D. 70-75, Matthew around 75, Luke around 80-90, and John around 90-100.​

Wikipedia states that The Acts of The Apostles was written around 80-90 AD. So the four Gospel books and Acts were all written after Paul wrote his letters (including Hebrews). Therefore to argue that the Gospel books and Acts are referring to a different Gospel and a different Christian faith and Church because they don't repeat all the same information is totally illogical. The full doctrine comes from accepting all of the books and letters together, and accepting they have one true author - God. 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV:

(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

 

[Doug]

In the past yes, they needed to pray in the Temple, where GOD was present in the Most Holy Place.

But since when Christ died on the Cross that day, the Temple curtain torn into two where GOD's dwelling no longer there.

Since GOD's dwelling according to HIS New Covenant is in all born again where their body is the Temple of GOD.

Therefore Peter and John know better even though they pray in the Temple or in their home, they pray in spirit and truth.

No longer like the unsaved Jews, but they blend in as to a Jew they behave like a Jew, even in the Temple or home, just to take the opportunity to minister unto them the Gospel.

So don't mix up what is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Holy Ghost is ghost, they vary.

Thank you.

Just saying that the church Peter headed was still involved with the temple