Is it possible to lose salvation?

[Big Boy Johnson]

do you have facts to support your responses before you assert them, or do you make things up?

That's rich coming from catholics

 

[RomeSweetHome]

It was not formally canonized until Trent! What many considered is irrelevant. If it was not canonized as itr was not- it still remained part of the pseudopigrapha!

Yes, the canon wasn't dogmatically established until Trent. But the 73 book canon was identified as the "divine Scripture" by a series of councils in the late fourth and early fifth century (the first formal pronouncements on the issue by bodies of the church). It didn't take Trent to "promote" these books, as you seem to think. Doubt that? The Orthodox have the same books in their canon even though the great schism took place five centuries before Trent. Trent put the issue to bed once and for all in the West, but it was drawing on very old history and broad historical consensus to do so.

Well as the Apocrypha was not formally canonized until Trent it was not "Scripture" but part of the pseudopigrapha.

There are many letters that didn't make the cut. The 27 books we call the New Testament were canonized by the council of Hippo in 393.
The council of Jamnia affirmed the 39 OT books
The apocrypha was not canonized until Trent in 1546 which occurred during the Catholic counter reformation.

The Synod of Hippo reaffirmed the 73 book canon identified by the Council of Rome before it. Why are you good with their selection of NT books but take issue with their selection of OT books?

As for the "Council of Jamnia"--First, as evangelical scholar F.F. Bruce pointed out in his 1988 book on the canon, it is "probably unwise to talk as if there were a Council or Synod of Jamnia which laid down the limits of the Old Testament canon," because the historical record doesn’t bear out that any such "council" took place along the lines you seem to think. In fact, the Jewish canon most likely was not closed until about a century later. Second, any such canonization took place well after the so-called "parting of the ways" (after which anti-Christian sentiment in the rabbinic community solidified, including, as many scholars think, in their antipathy towards the fuller Septuagint used by Christians that included the so-called Apocrypha) and so it is peculiar, to say the least, to look there rather than the Church's determinations on the subject. Two good articles that elaborate on this: The Jewish People and the Old Testament Canon Protestantism’s Old Testament Problem.

The bottom line not to lose here, however: you still have no answer to the point that Sola Scriptura is a logical contradiction because you have to go outside the text to decide the valid scope of the text, and thus you necessarily rely on some authority external to the text to decide what is the "Scriptura" that is "Sola." You want to dodge the point with invocations of "God decided," but that is just a special-pleading fallacy, and it doesn't get you out of the contradiction in any event (because you still have to point to something outside the text to determine which texts "God decided" were the canon).

 

[RomeSweetHome]

See Dr. Michael Kruger on the Canon Revisited. You would be surprise how much evidence there is for each book.

The apostles chose the books that were sacred. 22 of the 27 books were accepted as those the apostles authorized in the first century. Then, the remaining books were put to the test to make sure they were canonical. The books are self-authenticating. For example, the development of the canonical law was in the first century. The books that were being passed around where those that the apostles authorized. To be canonical, the 27 books had to be written by an apostle or one of their associates. (Like the Gospel of Mark was written by Mark as Peter dictated to him the words. the Gospel of Mark would be better named the Gospel of Peter)

Most of the NT books were never challenged due to the evidence of inspiration. No book was accepted unless it was written in the first century. The selection of the books was time-consuming but not very difficult. No book (of the 5 remaining books) was allowed to be part of the NT without wide spread approval from those men that were part of an entourage of the apostles. Because these men were spread out throughout the empire, the canonization of these 5 books took years and years.

There are tons of books out on the subject of the canon of the NT. For the most part, there isn't much dispute about the 27 books, until the second when the Gnostics came along. But they were second century, so their books and canon were rejected since they were not authorized by the men who knew the apostles or their associates.

Don't know Kruger; is he of a piece with Bruce and Metzger, generally?

Some details that aren't quite right historically, it seems, but most of this we can agree on. Just focusing on the core claim that Scripture is "self-authenticating," this short article has some observations on point that I'd commend to you: Protestantism’s Old Testament Problem. The bottom line is that Scripture and Sacred Tradition work hand in glove, and you can't cut out the latter without losing the logical foundation for the former.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Neither am I, an Arminian.




im not a Legalist.
No one is saved by Keeping the Law.
How do you know?

See the Cross of Christ for the answer......which is discovered as : "Justififcation by faith"

Also,

I have 2 questions for you. @Christian Soldier, and you are afraid to answer them, we've noticed , as this is the 3rd time ive asked you.

Now...You have been taught the lie of Hyper-Calvinism........and that is....."God predestines some for heaven, which means God predestined some for Hell".

This means that some in YOUR FAMILY are "predestined for Hell", according to what YOU Believe @Christian Soldier

1.) So, who are they in your family, that God predestined for Hell. ?? Mother, Father, Siblings, Grandmother?... Who???

2.) Why did God predestine some of your family members for Hell, while He predestined you for heaven.. you believe?

So, you must be a Calvinist as every Christian is either a Calvinist or Arminian., There is no third option, if there is then please share it with us.
Nobody has found this non existent 3rd option, even though 2 billion have been looking for it over the past 500 years. Please stop playing games and reveal which of the two gospel interpretations you believe in. I know which one you believe in, but it seems you don't know what you actually believe.

I have already answered your questions many times over the past few years, but it seems you ignore the answers and keep asking over and over again.

I have told you many times, that God has never revealed why he does what He does to anyone. I have already told you that God is a mystery, we will never know anything more than what He revealed about Himself in the Bible. Yes I know you can't resist presuming upon the Lord and filling in the blanks for yourself, using your wisdom and understanding.

I have told you and showed you scriptures which confirm, that it's impossible to understand God and why He does what he does. Since it's impossible, why do you keep insisting that I answer impossible questions, which God has deliberately hidden from man.

I what you to ask the nmost obvious and pressing question, that being WHY DOESN'T GOD CAST EVERYONE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. THAT'S THE QUESTION I DEMAND YOU ANSWER, IF YOUR SO WISE?????????.......

Now please answer my simple question, God has already answered my question, so any casual observer of Bible doctrines would have come across one of around 120 verses which answer the question. So you should be able to answer my question easily.

You know all of mankind deserves eternal torment in hell, because we have all sinned. But I ask why doesn't He????

 

[KUWN]

Don't know Kruger; is he of a piece with Bruce and Metzger, generally?

Yes, Kruger has more information and more refined comments. Many will not like him since he is a Reformed Theologian. He is worth the read.

Some details that aren't quite right historically, it seems, but most of this we can agree on. Just focusing on the core claim that Scripture is "self-authenticating," this short article has some observations on point that I'd commend to you: Protestantism’s Old Testament Problem. The bottom line is that Scripture and Sacred Tradition work hand in glove, and you can't cut out the latter without losing the logical foundation for the former.

I should probably refine my statement that the Scriptures are self-authenticating because the Word of God is made alive by the Spirit. The Spirit authenticates the Scriptures to the Genuine Seekers.

 

[Christian Soldier]

These verses destroy your Arminian version of the gospel.

Total Depravity (Total Inability)
Psalm 14:1-7: States that "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.' They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; there is none who does good" and "They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one".
Ephesians 2:1-5: Describes people as being "dead in your trespasses and sins" and "by nature children of wrath" before God makes them "alive together with Christ

 

[Christian Soldier]

Continued destruction of the Arminian version of the gospel.

Unconditional Election
Romans 9:11-13 Discusses Jacob and Esau, noting that God chose between them "while they were still in the womb, before they had done any good or evil" so that His purpose of election might stand 1 4-5, 11: States that God "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world... He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will"

.Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)
John 10:15, 25-26: In a passage where Jesus speaks of the "good shepherd," He says, "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own... My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand".

Irresistible Grace
John 6:44, 65: Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him... And He said, 'Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.'".Acts 7:51: This verse refers to those who have "stiff necks and uncircumcised in hearts and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit

"Perseverance of the Saints
John 10:28-29: States, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand".

• Romans 8:38-39: This passage concludes that nothing "shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"

 

[nedsk]

Well I am glad you could care less of my opinion! Rome said it not the church.

Also you are not even being literal about the Lords Supper. You hold to the Romanist view of deep spiritual mysticstuff, but Jesus said this:

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Seems Jesus was talking more about food and drink and not some spiritual event.

The Catholic Church is the only church that can even remotely traces it's history back to the apostles. Your strip mall "church" and cashier turned pastor can trace your history back to what? Three months ago?

The heresies you people espouse are sad

 

[Scott Downey]

That's the way the Bible is written though. There are so many places that say things like, "to them He gave the right to become children of God" refering to those who believed and received. "Come to Me all you who are weary and heavy burdened", "But if I be lifted up (crucified) I will draw all men to Myself", things like this, that if you read them for their face value show God's universal invitation, "Urging you as in Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God", if you read these just like that, as written, God would have us all, but leaves it to us to choose.

Maybe to you that means God isn't in Control, but then, it all depends on what you think God is doing. I think He is gathering a family of those who want to love Him and be with Him. That requires Choice. Just like Adam in the garden, we all choose, and our choices have real consequences. God, in His divine decree, ordained life that way.

Our requirement to make a choice for or against God is well established throughout the Bible. If to you that is works, then you need a new definition of "works". Repentance is itself a change of the mind.

Much love!

Ultimately in essence Calvinism remains true. But of course, God teaches us. And we do receive Him. So, doctrine of election is not forced, it just happens. And it happens according to His will. People have hardened hearts, and God is the one who removes that.

 

[Behold]

So, you must be a Calvinist as every Christian is either a Calvinist or Arminian.,

A Real Christian can't be defined by these 2, that you listed.... as They dont dictate or define Christianity tho they tried.
They were just 2 people who mind trapped a lot of other easily deceived people into thinking they mattered.
They dont.
Ignore them Both. and learn Paul's Doctrine instead, as he's the Real NT teacher.
Paul's Christianity, and Doctrine, and Ministry... is the GOLD standard we are to emulate.

I have already answered your questions many times over the past few years,

You've never once answered my 2 Questions...
Not "over the years" and not on this forum.
So, why lie? @Christian Soldier ?.as the members and MODS are watching what you are doing.
Understand Yet?
I'll tell you why you lied.. Its because if you face my 2 questions, you find out that John Calvinism is a false theology and a cruel "doctrine of devil's".
See, you've never really thought about this Hyper Calvinism JUNK you believe...and now that you are thinking about it, you decided to lie to this Forum because you can't face the answers.

So, Here are the 2 questions again., and if you decide to lie, then it wont be the first time, will it..... @Christian Soldier .

Now...You have been taught the lie of Hyper-Calvinism........and that is....."God predestines some for heaven, which means God predestined some for Hell".

This means that some in YOUR FAMILY are "predestined for Hell", according to what YOU Believe @Christian Soldier

1.) So, who are they in your family, that God predestined for Hell. ?? Mother, Father, Siblings, Grandmother?... Who???

2.) Why did God predestine some of your family members for Hell, while He predestined you for heaven.. you believe?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Catholic Church is the only church that can even remotely traces it's history back to the apostles. Your strip mall "church" and cashier turned pastor can trace your history back to what? Three months ago?

The heresies you people espouse are sad

Please do not take up mind reader as a career. You really suck at it!
Strip mall and cashier?
Which supposed heresies are you accusing me of?

I am openly accusing the roman church of heresy and Blasphemy.
Purgatory declares the blood of Jesus does not remove all penalty of sin.
Faith plus works of Romanism violates the clear teaching of Scripture Eph. 2:8-10
Limbo also is heretical
indulgences are heretical
Perpetual virginity of Mary defies the Scripture
Mary as sinless defies Scripture
The rosary is a blasphemy
Mary as co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix are a blasphemy
Mandated celibacy defies scripture

Etc.Etc.Etc. ad-nauseum

 

[nedsk]

Please do not take up mind reader as a career. You really suck at it!
Strip mall and cashier?
Which supposed heresies are you accusing me of?

I am openly accusing the roman church of heresy and Blasphemy.
Purgatory declares the blood of Jesus does not remove all penalty of sin.
Faith plus works of Romanism violates the clear teaching of Scripture Eph. 2:8-10
Limbo also is heretical
indulgences are heretical
Perpetual virginity of Mary defies the Scripture
Mary as sinless defies Scripture
The rosary is a blasphemy
Mary as co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix are a blasphemy
Mandated celibacy defies scripture

Etc.Etc.Etc. ad-nauseum

The same tired old talking points that are meaningless. Anyone with a brain can read the writings of the early church fathers and see they didn't teach any of the garbage you spew. They do however speak quite clearly about the teaching of the church. The hatred of the real church is why you people are so angry.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

So, you must be a Calvinist as every Christian is either a Calvinist or Arminian.,

True Christians follow what the Lord says in His Word and not these fables

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Anyone with a brain can read the writings of the early church fathers and see they didn't teach any of the garbage you spew.

Was that before or after they got deceived???

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)

 

[RomeSweetHome]

I don't mean to be rude, but to be blunt: do you have facts to support your responses before you assert them, or do you make things up? Seems like you just made up an etymology for "anepsios" without any grounds for it.

For instance, Numbers 36:11, LXX:

καὶ ἐγένοντο Θερσα καὶ Εγλα καὶ Μελχα καὶ Νουα καὶ Μααλα θυγατέρες Σαλπααδ τοῖς ἀνεψιοῖς αὐτῶν

The daughters of Zelophehad married "their cousins" (ἀνεψιοῖς). So again, where do you get that the LXX translators did not have a word for cousin that they could have used (but did not) in many places where instead they used "brothers" to speak of more distant kin?

And as I told Bread of Life over and over again, when the OT books were translated from Hebrew to Greek or written in Greek, the terms for near relatives (syngenes and synpsis) were not in Koine Greek, they came later. So the 70 used the best word available at the time which was adelphos or adelphi! For the NT it was vastly different for even Elizabeth was referred to as Mary's cousin in Luke 1:26 and in Luke 1:58 cousins is used and it is syngenes!

Sorry but those are the simple facts and they cannot be altered!

One more thing on this--

I had taken at face value your claim that "syngenes" (συγγενὴς) was "not in Koine Greek" when the LXX was translated. But that, too, is evidently false. It appears five times in the Greek Old Testament, three in Leviticus, one in 2 Samuel, one in Ezekiel. G4773 - syngenēs - Strong's Greek Lexicon (lxx).

Meanwhile, you "openly accus[e] the roman church of heresy and Blasphemy" and hurl loads of fact-free invectives otherwise. In all sincerity, perhaps you should pause to sort out your apparent, all-too-casual relationship with the truth, John 8:44; Romans 1:18-23; 1 Corinthians 6:10; 1 Peter 3:10-12, before further reviling "the pillar and bulwark of the truth," 1 Timothy 3:15.

 

[RomeSweetHome]

Yes, Kruger has more information and more refined comments. Many will not like him since he is a Reformed Theologian. He is worth the read.

Thanks for sharing. I've added to my reading list.

 

[Christian Soldier]

A Real Christian can't be defined by these 2, that you listed.... as They dont dictate or define Christianity tho they tried.
They were just 2 people who mind trapped a lot of other easily deceived people into thinking they mattered.
They dont.
Ignore them Both. and learn Paul's Doctrine instead, as he's the Real NT teacher.
Paul's Christianity, and Doctrine, and Ministry... is the GOLD standard we are to emulate.



You've never once answered my 2 Questions...
Not "over the years" and not on this forum.
So, why lie? @Christian Soldier ?.as the members and MODS are watching what you are doing.
Understand Yet?
I'll tell you why you lied.. Its because if you face my 2 questions, you find out that John Calvinism is a false theology and a cruel "doctrine of devil's".
See, you've never really thought about this Hyper Calvinism JUNK you believe...and now that you are thinking about it, you decided to lie to this Forum because you can't face the answers.

So, Here are the 2 questions again., and if you decide to lie, then it wont be the first time, will it..... @Christian Soldier .

Now...You have been taught the lie of Hyper-Calvinism........and that is....."God predestines some for heaven, which means God predestined some for Hell".

This means that some in YOUR FAMILY are "predestined for Hell", according to what YOU Believe @Christian Soldier

1.) So, who are they in your family, that God predestined for Hell. ?? Mother, Father, Siblings, Grandmother?... Who???

2.) Why did God predestine some of your family members for Hell, while He predestined you for heaven.. you believe?

It's obvious you don't know what you believe. your confusion is tossing you around like a ship without a rudder in a storm. You are being deceived by every wind of doctrine, and you have no direction.

You don't even know which version of the gospel, you believe. You follow Paul but I follow Christ. Your hero couldn't resist practicing evil.

Romans 7:19, which reads: "For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice".

I'm glad you admitted that, as it goes a long way to reveal why your theology is so messed up.

It's obvious you don't know what John Calvin taught, if you knew anything at all, you wouldn't be spreading lies and falsley accusing him of heresy. You are emulating the "False Accuser" perfectly, and that speaks volumes about your motive for spreading lies with absolutely no evidence to back anything you say.

The difference between you and me is, I always qualify me statements with the Word of God. I always refer to Gods Word, but your slander is not backed by anything apart form your guile.

 

[Christian Soldier]

True Christians follow what the Lord says in His Word and not these fables

What fables are you talking about, please enlighten us so we don't get deceived by false doctrine. We've all heard about those who spread heresy, so please don't protect them, otherwise you're complicit their schemes

 

[nedsk]

Was that before or after they got deceived???

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)

LMBO then Ignatius of Antioch was deceived by the apostle John who he was a disciple of. Stop your foolishness. Show me any kind of teaching from anyone who preached we are saved by faith alone before then1500s.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith alone before the 1500's.

Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."

Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."

Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed."

Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."