Theological Examination of the Rapture in Relation to the Great Tribulation

[rebuilder 454]

Yes I did see it but what should I reply


The "one taken, one left" part refers to the separation of people: one person is taken, and the other is left behind, as it will be during the return of Christ, when some will be saved and others will not.

It CAN NOT be half the world saved and half taken.
Your starting place is way off.
It says ,; "before the flood"..one taken, one left.
Half taken.
You are changing both dynamics to fit your assumption.
But ,"THE HALF TAKEN", dynamic is RE-INTRODUCED a few sentences later BY JESUS.
Jesus gives us the Half taken dynamic TWICE, BACK TO BACK.

A true doctrine destroyer!!!!!

By force fitting, and changing verses, to fit a preconceived notion, is guaranteed error.

All postribbers have a huge dilemma in the half taken statement.
I have never seen anyone from your camp, not a single teacher, that can unpack mat 24 , Matt 25, or Roman 9-11 the Jewish component .
They also stumble MASSIVELY over the 144k and the mid trib gathering of rev 14.

Search out the bridecand groom component.
It will lead you EXCLUSIVELY TO pretrib rapture teachers.
We own all of that and more.
Your camp has nothing of those dynamics.
As ANY postrib rapture teacher , " quote for me the 2 escape verses prophesied by Jesus"

They will stare back and snap " there are none"

I just shake my head in disbelief.
Postrib rapture doctrine is so poorly thought out.
Down right dishonest.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Postrib rapture doctrine, originated by men (which postrib rapture adherents celebrate and is taught by postrib rapture teachers), STARTS ITS THEORY on a ASSUMPTION.

In that assumption is man's reasoning.
Which is ..."there is only one coming"

IOW, Casting aside the several comings IN THE BIBLE, and clinging to " I don't care about your many pretrib rapture verses, or the more than one coming, or the Jewish gathering of rev 14, or Jesus prophecies, ...it just can not be more than one coming."

At this late hour....rejecting and changing the bible is ludicrous

 

[LoveYeshua]

It CAN NOT be half the world saved and half taken.
Your starting place is way off.
It says ,; "before the flood"..one taken, one left.
Half taken.
You are changing both dynamics to fit your assumption.
But ,"THE HALF TAKEN", dynamic is RE-INTRODUCED a few sentences later BY JESUS.
Jesus gives us the Half taken dynamic TWICE, BACK TO BACK.

A true doctrine destroyer!!!!!

By force fitting, and changing verses, to fit a preconceived notion, is guaranteed error.

All postribbers have a huge dilemma in the half taken statement.
I have never seen anyone from your camp, not a single teacher, that can unpack mat 24 , Matt 25, or Roman 9-11 the Jewish component .
They also stumble MASSIVELY over the 144k and the mid trib gathering of rev 14.

Search out the bridecand groom component.
It will lead you EXCLUSIVELY TO pretrib rapture teachers.
We own all of that and more.
Your camp has nothing of those dynamics.
As ANY postrib rapture teacher , " quote for me the 2 escape verses prophesied by Jesus"
,
They will stare back and snap " there are none"

I just shake my head in disbelief.
Postrib rapture doctrine is so poorly thought out.
Down right dishonest.

I will examine what you say with care as i always do and get back to you.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Postrib rapture doctrine, originated by men (which postrib rapture adherents celebrate and is taught by postrib rapture teachers), STARTS ITS THEORY on a ASSUMPTION.

In that assumption is man's reasoning.
Which is ..."there is only one coming"

IOW, Casting aside the several comings IN THE BIBLE, and clinging to " I don't care about your many pretrib rapture verses, or the more than one coming, or the Jewish gathering of rev 14, or Jesus prophecies, ...it just can not be more than one coming."

At this late hour....rejecting and changing the bible is ludicrous

could you then do write a complete post with all you try to explain in detail with the scripture to back all this up, I do believe it would be useful for further discussion. I do have some difficulty to follow what you say here.

 

[JLB]

Postrib rapture doctrine, originated by men (which postrib rapture adherents celebrate and is taught by postrib rapture teachers), STARTS ITS THEORY on a ASSUMPTION.

In that assumption is man's reasoning.
Which is ..."there is only one coming"

IOW, Casting aside the several comings IN THE BIBLE, and clinging to " I don't care about your many pretrib rapture verses, or the more than one coming, or the Jewish gathering of rev 14, or Jesus prophecies, ...it just can not be more than one coming."

At this late hour....rejecting and changing the bible is ludicrous

Several comings of the Lord in the bible?

And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
1 John 2:28


He appears at His coming. His coming is singular. There is so such verse that says "His comings".

His coming is His appearing. No such thing as an invisible coming of the Lord.


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


This is where we get the term the second coming of Christ.


The bible does not teach us about any "invisible" coming of the Lord, or a third coming of the Lord.


Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


Please don't teach God's people false man made teachings. Let's please use scripture and teach what is true.



JLB

 

[LoveYeshua]

To Where specific does CHRIST Return?

When specific does CHRIST Return?
Before the Great Tribulation?
During The Great Tribulation?
After the Great Tribulation?

To where specifically does Christ return?
Christ will return to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. (Zechariah 14:4)
When specifically does Christ return?
Christ will return at a time known only by the Father, like a thief in the night. (Matthew 24:36)
After the Great Tribulation?
The most explicit references indicate Christ’s return will occur after the Tribulation, when the signs in the heavens are fulfilled. (Matthew 24:29-31)

 

[LoveYeshua]

Several comings of the Lord in the bible?

And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
1 John 2:28


He appears at His coming. His coming is singular. There is so such verse that says "His comings".

His coming is His appearing. No such thing as an invisible coming of the Lord.


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


This is where we get the term the second coming of Christ.


The bible does not teach us about any "invisible" coming of the Lord, or a third coming of the Lord.


Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


Please don't teach God's people false man made teachings. Let's please use scripture and teach what is true.



JLB

I know you are right of course but I will examine what rebuilder mentionned,I need to understant where his belief is from.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Simply asked what you believe.

Question: where IS heaven?
Above man’s habitat Earth.

Question, what IS heaven?
Gods Throne.
A firmament.
A spirit dwelling place.

Question, does heaven have divisions?
Yes

Question, If heaven has divisions, what ARE the divisions For?

Dwelling places of Different spirits.

Question, If heaven has divisions, what are the divisions called?
1st, Lower heaven closest to Earth … clouds.
2nd, Outer heaven between Lower and Higher Heaven … Stars
3rd, High Heaven, Paradise
Gods dwelling place, Heaven above the Heavens.

Question? Who occupies heaven now?
Spirits, Saved departed souls.

What is a firmament?
A water divided from water.

most of what you stated is not biblical and highly speculative.

 

[JLB]

I know you are right of course but I will examine what rebuilder mentionned,I need to understant where his belief is from.

The key to understanding:


If the coming of the Lord is before the tribulation, then who would follow the antichrist if they had seen the true Christ coming in glory?

 

[LoveYeshua]

The key to understanding:


If the coming of the Lord is before the tribulation, then who would follow the antichrist if they had seen the true Christ coming in glory?

I think many believe like in some movies, that they will be lifted up to heaven before tribulation starts. I know God could certainly do this is he wanted but it is not what is written.

 

[LoveYeshua]

off for now, gorgeous weather here and going for a bike ride to see God's creations, autumn leaves turned bright gold and red in colour, back tonight guys.



Blessings

 

[Taken]

most of what you stated is not biblical

Vague. Why leave me to guess what you are claiming?
This is what I said…
Delete and leave all you say is not Biblical.

Question: where IS heaven?
Above man’s habitat Earth.

Question, what IS heaven?
Gods Throne.
A firmament.
A spirit dwelling place.

Question, does heaven have divisions?
Yes

Question, If heaven has divisions, what ARE the divisions For?

Dwelling places of Different spirits.

Question, If heaven has divisions, what are the divisions called?
1st, Lower heaven closest to Earth … clouds.
2nd, Outer heaven between Lower and Higher Heaven … Stars
3rd, High Heaven, Paradise
Gods dwelling place, Heaven above the Heavens.

Question? Who occupies heaven now?
Spirits, Saved departed souls.

What is a firmament?
A water divided from water.

 

[Taken]

Several comings of the Lord in the bible?

Scripture IS Not So different From what men mimic…Titles Appropriate, per situation specific.

Example Trump…
* President Trump when tending to the Business of the Federal Government.
* Dad Trump when tending with his children.
* Grandpa Trump when tending with his grandchildren.
* Uncle Trump when tending with his nieces, nephews.
* Brother in law, Nephew, CEO, Etc. Etc.

If you pay attention to Scripture … Jesus has Quite a few TITLES… Rabbi, Teacher, Lord, Son of Man, Son of God, Word of God, Mighty, Christ, Seed, Power, Truth, Life, Way, God, Father, etc. etc.

He who Returns … is He that was Sent …”the Son of Man”…. Who “left” WITH Power and Returns With Power and WITH Him…are…
His Angels and Saints The Lamb of God Saved Before the Tribulations Began. (Begins).

His Coming is NOT the same as His Return.
His Return, is Him “Standing ON the Earth.”

How many times was the “Son of man” sent from heaven to Earth? Once

How many times did the Son of man return to Heaven? Once.

How many times will the Son of man return to Earth? Once.

What is the “importance” of the “Son of man”?

Spirits AND….->-> Human men can SEE Him.

Did any human men “see” the Lamb of God baptizing a mans life in his soul”?

Did any human “see” their natural spirit receive the “seed” of God?

Point , what men shall “see” return TO Earth is The Same “Son of Man” that was sent to Earth and Returned to God in Heaven…. Where no man can go…Gods abode, the Heaven Above the Heavens.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Vague. Why leave me to guess what you are claiming?
This is what I said…
Delete and leave all you say is not Biblical.

Question: where IS heaven?
Above man’s habitat Earth.

Question, what IS heaven?
Gods Throne.
A firmament.
A spirit dwelling place.

Question, does heaven have divisions?
Yes

Question, If heaven has divisions, what ARE the divisions For?

Dwelling places of Different spirits.

Question, If heaven has divisions, what are the divisions called?
1st, Lower heaven closest to Earth … clouds.
2nd, Outer heaven between Lower and Higher Heaven … Stars
3rd, High Heaven, Paradise
Gods dwelling place, Heaven above the Heavens.

Question? Who occupies heaven now?
Spirits, Saved departed souls.

What is a firmament?
A water divided from water.

I have replied to all your questions already, you do not know where Heaven truly is? No one here on earth does we know where it will be eventually but not now. When Jesus came, heaven itself came near, because He is God in human form (John 1:1,14). That is why He said, “The kingdom of God is among you” (Luke 17:21). The Law and the Prophets guided people until John, but from then on, the gospel of the Kingdom was preached, and people eagerly pressed toward it (Luke 16:16). Wherever Jesus walked, the power and presence of heaven were there, healing the sick and forgiving sins, because in Him, God was with us (Matthew 1:23). Though the full Kingdom was not yet of this world (John 18:36), Jesus opened the way so that through faith and obedience, we may enter the eternal Kingdom of God (John 14:6).

Yes God and Jesus are in heaven but do you know where it truly is? Is God a material being that he is at this time in a material universe?

 

[JLB]

Scripture IS Not So different From what men mimic…Titles Appropriate, per situation specific.

Example Trump…
* President Trump when tending to the Business of the Federal Government.
* Dad Trump when tending with his children.
* Grandpa Trump when tending with his grandchildren.
* Uncle Trump when tending with his nieces, nephews.
* Brother in law, Nephew, CEO, Etc. Etc.

If you pay attention to Scripture … Jesus has Quite a few TITLES… Rabbi, Teacher, Lord, Son of Man, Son of God, Word of God, Mighty, Christ, Seed, Power, Truth, Life, Way, God, Father, etc. etc.

He who Returns … is He that was Sent …”the Son of Man”…. Who “left” WITH Power and Returns With Power and WITH Him…are…
His Angels and Saints The Lamb of God Saved Before the Tribulations Began. (Begins).

His Coming is NOT the same as His Return.
His Return, is Him “Standing ON the Earth.”

How many times was the “Son of man” sent from heaven to Earth? Once

How many times did the Son of man return to Heaven? Once.

How many times will the Son of man return to Earth? Once.

What is the “importance” of the “Son of man”?

Spirits AND….->-> Human men can SEE Him.

Did any human men “see” the Lamb of God baptizing a mans life in his soul”?

Did any human “see” their natural spirit receive the “seed” of God?

Point , what men shall “see” return TO Earth is The Same “Son of Man” that was sent to Earth and Returned to God in Heaven…. Where no man can go…Gods abode, the Heaven Above the Heavens.

There is only one coming of the Lord.


The second coming of Christ.

 

[Taken]

I have replied to all your questions already,

Vaguely.

you do not know where Heaven truly is?

Obviously So. Since I answered my own Questions precisely.

No one here on earth does we know where it will be eventually but not now.

Agree that applies to you.
Point of me saying your answers were vague.
Disagree, since my answers Were explicit.

Yes God and Jesus are in heaven but do you know where it truly is?

What is the point of you asking a question that which I have explicitly answered?

Is God a material being that he is at this time in a material universe?

God is Invisible, with the ability to Know and See all of His creations.

 

[Davy]

That is a pretty Bold Claim, that I myself have NEVER claimed To have been “TAUGHT” …by ANY men, outside of, not identified in Scripture.

It's a simple claim based on the Truth, that Truth being The Bible Scriptures as written.

And yes you HAVE... been taught the Pre-trib Rapture theory which you hold to, either by preachers you've listened to or by friends that had been taught it. That doctrine isn't in The Bible, which even several Pre-trib Bible scholars have admitted.

So if you're not going to be honest, no sense in continuing conversation with you.

 

[Jay Ross]

Perhaps Matt 24:19-31 tells us when the Saints will meet Christ in the air when Christ sends Angels out with trumpets to begin gathering the elect to Himself.

My understanding is that it will occur after Satan is captured and also thrown into the lake of Fire.

Isaiah also in Isaiah 24:21-23 also tells us the same story.

Edited because the wrong chapter was referenced.

 

[Fred J]

Christ’s Own Words About the Sequence of Events

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus explained the signs of the end and how the final gathering will happen. He said plainly that tribulation happens first, and then His coming will be seen by everyone.

Tribulation of believers, Jesus already discipled His chosen 12 then, that after His departure they and the church will face.

But the Great Tribulation is a prophetic tribulation that will take place towards the end of days, before the 'first resurrection' of church saints.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

These calamities are included in the three and half years Great Tribulation, because after that is the thousand years of peace.

The Visible Return and Gathering

, but rather the separation between those who belong to Christ and those who rejected Him when He appears.

No, they are both believers, but one is prepared and ready, while the other not and left behind.

The parable of the ten 'virgins' says it all, for those who rejected Him are not virgins anymore but defiled.

 

[Taken]

It's a simple claim based on the Truth, that Truth being The Bible Scriptures as written.

And yes you HAVE... been taught the Pre-trib Rapture theory which you hold to, either by preachers you've listened to or by friends that had been taught it. That doctrine isn't in The Bible, which even several Pre-trib Bible scholars have admitted.

So if you're not going to be honest, no sense in continuing conversation with you.

You are so blatantly ridiculous I can hardly contain my laughter.

IF YOU were Scripturally Taught, you should have Learned, Believed, Trusted:
The Word of God IS the Supreme Teacher…
The Spirit of man Learns Gods Truth From God…
AND…
ONLY the mans Spirit and God Knows the mans Belief.

1 Cor 2:
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

It’s is God, WHO forms the spirit of man, within a man…
(zech 12:1)
Appears it is you, speaking For YOU, who have CHOSEN to listen, hear, believe, trust Corrupt Teachers,
and Failed to verify their Teaching WITH Gods Word.

Even the most simple minded person could reason God Has NO Anger, Wrath, Tribulation Against A Converted man…
AND
A Converted man knows to Wager and Verify his Reasonable Beliefs Against Gods Scriptural Text to Have Confidence in his own Spiritual Belief, According to God.

It is Boldly astounding, YOU think YOU were “included” in the Conversation and Act, on the Day, The Lord God and I Agreed to Establish an Eternal Relationship.

Sounds as if you should Give it a whirl and Try Putting your Trust in Gods Word, rather than Trusting your chosen Teachers to tell you what to Believe and Trust.