What Does 'Surely Die' Mean?

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Exegesis

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I was referring to this statement you made in particular:

"The man and woman experienced both the first death as well as the second death within a twenty-four hour period exactly as God."

What about that?

What I posted in the OP is fact, not opinion as so many here seem to believe. Moreover, not a single person has even come close to debunking what I have presented. How can they? Scripture does not change.

Everyone here now needs to make a choice about Genesis 2:17.
  1. God lied: The man and woman did not die.
  2. God changed his mind: God said the man and woman would die, even thought they did not.
  3. God meant what he said: Genesis 2:17 is literal.
Again, I invite you and everyone here to please read the article I referenced in the OP:

The above comes from a very well done study that can be found here:


Since you folks here are not courteous enough to take the time and review the link, don't be surprised if I ignore your comments.

I am here to have an academic discussion with anyone who is capable about the topic presented.

And just to be clear, there are other sources, references, links, etc. to SCHOLARLY research and exegesis that agree with the one study I provided. You folks either need to prove me wrong or correct your doctrine, otherwise you have no authority to claim that I and the Scholars are wrong.
 
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ScottA

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What I posted in the OP is fact, not opinion as so many here seem to believe. Moreover, not a single person has even come close to debunking what I have presented. How can they? Scripture does not change.

Everyone here now needs to make a choice about Genesis 2:17.
  1. God lied: The man and woman did not die.
  2. God changed his mind: God said the man and woman would die, even thought they did not.
  3. God meant what he said: Genesis 2:17 is literal.
Again, I invite you and everyone here to please read the article I referenced in the OP:



Since you folks here are not courteous enough to take the time and review the link, don't be surprised if I ignore your comments.

I am here to have an academic discussion with anyone who is capable about the topic presented.

And just to be clear, there are other sources, references, links, etc. to SCHOLARLY research and exegesis that agree with the one study I provided. You folks either need to prove me wrong or correct your doctrine, otherwise you have no authority to claim that I and the Scholars are wrong.
Okay, I read the article (and watched the video). Sorry if my response is brief, I am on my phone traveling.

If I understand your position correctly, you are saying that God’s death statement was literal, and therefore Genesis 6 refers to another Adam...is that correct?
 
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Aunty Jane

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Busted. I told you. You changed the literal word for 'day' into 'six days' to make your false dogma work.

You took away and added to the Word of God.
LOL....perhaps it is you who is “busted”?

The word for “day” in Hebrew is “yôm” and it’s the same word all through the Genesis account.

Strongs gives the definition as....

“day, time, year
  1. day (as opposed to night)
  2. day (24 hour period)
    1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
    2. as a division of time
      1. a working day, a day's journey
  3. days, lifetime (pl.)
  4. time, period (general)”

Not just a literal day at all.....so perhaps some homework is in order before you go throwing around false accusations.

This means that the six “days” of creation weren’t just 24 hour days either.....that agrees with what geologists, archeologists and palaeontologists have unearthed in their excavations. The earth itself is way older than a mere 6,000 years. This leaves the YEC’s with egg on their faces.

Where were the dinosaurs on the ark? They were long extinct before man arrived, and thank goodness! We would have been like ants squished underfoot!
 
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quietthinker

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LOL....perhaps it is you who is “busted”?

The word for “day” in Hebrew is “yôm” and it’s the same word all through the Genesis account.

Strongs gives the definition as....

“day, time, year
  1. day (as opposed to night)
  2. day (24 hour period)
    1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
    2. as a division of time
      1. a working day, a day's journey
  3. days, lifetime (pl.)
  4. time, period (general)”

Not just a literal day at all.....so perhaps some homework is in order before you go throwing around false accusations.

This means that the six “days” of creation weren’t just 24 hour days either.....that agrees with what geologists, archeologists and palaeontologists have unearthed in their excavations. The earth itself is way older than a mere 6,000 years. This leaves the YEC’s with egg on their faces.

Where were the dinosaurs on the ark? They were long extinct before man arrived, and thank goodness! We would have been like ants squished underfoot!
hmmm, at each stage of Creation God said all he had created was very good....ie, no death!
I wonder how that fits in with flesh tearing dinosaurs?
 

Exegesis

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Okay, I read the article (and watched the video). Sorry if my response is brief, I am on my phone traveling.

If I understand your position correctly, you are saying that God’s death statement was literal, and therefore Genesis 6 refers to another Adam...is that correct?

Correct.
 

Exegesis

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The word for “day” in Hebrew is “yôm” and it’s the same word all through the Genesis account.

Strongs gives the definition as....

“day, time, year
  1. day (as opposed to night)
  2. day (24 hour period)
    1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
    2. as a division of time
      1. a working day, a day's journey
  3. days, lifetime (pl.)
  4. time, period (general)”

So you need to whip out a Concordance and fumble around, looking for some obscure translation to make the Bible say what *you* want it to say eh? Not a good start.

Just to be clear, my interpretation simply uses the already existing translations out there that were done by experts, and not some random person on the interwebs. Moreover, I can show my interpretations to anyone, including non-believers, and not have to play mental gymnastics with God's Word to prove my point. In fact, I can just use the KJV if I want and not change a single thing.

Not just a literal day at all.....so perhaps some homework is in order before you go throwing around false accusations.

Homework. Yes, let us do that now. We will see how the experts have translated Genesis 2:4:

Genesis 2:4 (New International Version) This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

Nope, nothing about 'six days' is there. There is no mention of anything else besides heavens and earth being created. There is nothing about plants, animals, birds, fish or man being created. You added all of that to the verse. Clearly the verse is referencing the Third Day when earth was made. You failed the NIV test. Next:

Genesis 2:4 (English Standard Version) These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

Nope, nothing about 'six days' is there. Day is singular, not plural. There is no mention of anything else besides heavens and earth being created. There is nothing about plants, animals, birds, fish or man being created. You added all of that to the verse. Clearly the verse is referencing the Third Day when earth was made. You failed the ESV test. Next:

Genesis 2:4 (King James Bible) These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Nope, nothing about 'six days' is there. Day is singular, not plural. There is no mention of anything else beside heavens and earth being created. There is nothing about plants, animals, birds, fish or man being created. You added all of that to the verse. Clearly the verse is referencing the Third Day when earth was made. You failed the KJV test.

I can do this all day. I go with the experts.

This means that the six “days” of creation weren’t just 24 hour days either

No, it means you changed the Word of God again and again to suit your 'feelings'. Yikes, it's worse than I thought.

Feelings do not equal facts.

.....that agrees with what geologists, archeologists and palaeontologists have unearthed in their excavations.

And now you just made such a huge blunder I can no longer take you seriously. You take modern theories and shoehorn them into Genesis without knowing where they go in the creation narrative. I will give some advice.

What science calls the "Big Bang" is what happened in Genesis 3:6:

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Everything before that moment happened in a *non-physical* Heaven like environment. It was an ethereal spirit realm. In other words, the universe had not fallen into a cursed physical state yet. When God said to the man that he would die, he meant it in the most profound way possible, i.e., a total collapse of reality. Therefore, 'millions of years' did not happen before the Fall. A day was a twenty-four hour period of time.

This is the Big Bang being described:

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

God cursed the Heaven like spirit realm environment that the man and woman were living in. The entire universe 'fell' into the physical matter we all live in now. Think wave collapsing into particles. We are under the Law as in laws of nature. We are bound to it. Trapped.

If you really did your homework, you would know about this interpretation.

So yes, the First Adam and Ishshah absolutely died in the process. If you want to fit billions of years into all of that, or Evolution, you can do that if you so choose. However, you cannot do that before Genesis 3:6 and have it make sense.

The earth itself is way older than a mere 6,000 years. This leaves the YEC’s with egg on their faces.

And yet I can play the same game you do with this verse:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The above verse is referring to the Flood of Noah. By your rules, Noah was not in the Ark for 360 days, but 360,000 years. A day is a thousand years. God personally sealed him in, remember? It was a supernatural event.

Oh look...

1762223410875.png

Homo Sapiens were around when Noah entered the Ark some 360,000 years ago. A day = 1,000 years. Noah time travelled. I just solved the biggest mystery ever. Where's my prize?

Where were the dinosaurs on the ark? They were long extinct before man arrived, and thank goodness! We would have been like ants squished underfoot!

The symbology of Noah's Ark. is lost on you. Preserve seed, i.e., DNA, is the key to understanding.

Genesis 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

We know this concept as a seed bank/DNA storage. Salvation involves DNA. The Bible is trying to teach you this.
 

ScottA

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Okay. It's good of you to notice the possibility of their being two different Adams based on the language, because it opens the door for alternative an explanation. However, that is not the one that is true, as it too is based in the logic and terms of this world.

Alternatively, there is only one true explanation that aligns with the revelations reserved for and previously sealed only to be revealed during these times of "the seventh angel, when he is about to sound." Which is according to God’s own timeless terms rather than those of this world--those of "time no longer."

Those terms, if you will notice, do not refer to the end of time (or as a 'delay' to what Christ said "must shortly come to pass"), but come before the end when the seventh has not yet sounded. In other words "time no longer" has been wrongly assumed all of this time--incorrectly defined. Which is not a matter of interpretation, but rather of God's revealing in the way that He historically has proven to do.

This is perhaps the greatest revelation of all time...and I am limited from carrying on at the moment. So, meanwhile...What would you say is God's established method of revealing things in due season?
...I'll continue when I can.
 

Exegesis

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Whatever the reason, the waters that were originally on the earth (Gen 1:2) were divided between what was “on” the earth and what was “above” it. Peter also tells us that God used it in the flood. (2 Peter 3:5-6)

You are making the mistake of interpreting the creation account through the lens of the fallen world we live in.

Again, before Genesis 3:6 there was no physical matter as we know it. Therefore, the 'waters' and the 'deep' were symbolic of something else.

Maybe use your Concordance for something useful:

1762225006625.png
*BEFORE* creation. UNDERWORLD. Do you understand?

“Then , God, formed a person (āḏām) from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being. (soul)” (words in brackets taken from Strongs Concordance)

The person was a soul...(nep̄eš) a living breathing creature. All animals in the creation account are called “souls”. This word never describes a disembodied spirit.

As I have been trying to show you and everyone here, the First Adam and Ishshah had no physical body. They were created with a Soul and Spirit only. In other words, a Living Soul. That is how people are resurrected. They are resurrected without a physical body. The 'clothing' comes later when they eat from the Tree of Life. That is its purpose, to 'clothe' the Redeemed with a Glorified what? Body.

The purpose of the two trees were to clothe them. The leaves are symbolic of the covering. Get it? Naked means no physical body yet. They have to be clothed, sometimes with something temporary:

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I will try and get to the other comments when I can.
 

Exegesis

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In other words "time no longer" has been wrongly assumed all of this time--incorrectly defined. Which is not a matter of interpretation, but rather of God's revealing in the way that He historically has proven to do.

I saw another thread of yours where you touched on this. I agree, the traditional way of interpreting time in the Bible is way off.

I believe the passage you refer to fits well with the end of Noah's Flood. No more delay. The 2300 years of Daniel begins when the rainbow is placed in the cloud. Look who we find:

Revelation 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

Why would he have a rainbow on his head? To bring it to earth after the Flood?

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

We could be looking at a reference to something that happened long ago.

What would you say is God's established method of revealing things in due season?

Hmmm. Good question. I am all ears if you wish to share.
 

Aunty Jane

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I can do this all day. I go with the experts.
Hmmm...experts eh? How do you filter these experts if I may ask.....

Things like....”before Genesis 3:6 there was no physical matter as we know it. Therefore, the 'waters' and the 'deep' were symbolic of something else.”

Where on earth do you get this stuff?

The rest of your post I’ll just leave for the readers to decide for themselves whether humans were...
“in a *non-physical* Heaven like environment. It was an ethereal spirit realm. In other words, the universe had not fallen into a cursed physical state yet. When God said to the man that he would die, he meant it in the most profound way possible, i.e., a total collapse of reality. Therefore, 'millions of years' did not happen before the Fall. A day was a twenty-four hour period of time.”

“God cursed the Heaven like spirit realm environment that the man and woman were living in. The entire universe 'fell' into the physical matter we all live in now. Think wave collapsing into particles. We are under the Law as in laws of nature. We are bound to it. Trapped.”


“If you really did your homework, you would know about this interpretation.”

In what part of the Scriptures does anyone extract that story from the Bible?
I have done my homework and nowhere have I seen even a remote reference to what you have stated.....

It’s because I have studied the Bible very carefully, that I question what you have written.
 

dak

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LOL....perhaps it is you who is “busted”?

The word for “day” in Hebrew is “yôm” and it’s the same word all through the Genesis account.

Strongs gives the definition as....

“day, time, year
  1. day (as opposed to night)
  2. day (24 hour period)
    1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
    2. as a division of time
      1. a working day, a day's journey
  3. days, lifetime (pl.)
  4. time, period (general)”

Not just a literal day at all.....so perhaps some homework is in order before you go throwing around false accusations.

This means that the six “days” of creation weren’t just 24 hour days either.....that agrees with what geologists, archeologists and palaeontologists have unearthed in their excavations. The earth itself is way older than a mere 6,000 years. This leaves the YEC’s with egg on their faces.

Where were the dinosaurs on the ark? They were long extinct before man arrived, and thank goodness! We would have been like ants squished underfoot!

We are in agreement on this and it can be shown more conclusively as follows:

Hebrew proper nouns do not tolerate the definite article. In Gen 2:4 we have "the heavens and the earth in the first occurrence in that verse, this phrase with the articles it not using proper nouns, (names), but the next appearance of the phrase does not have the articles attached, and therefore says, Heavens and Earth, because it is speaking of the actual names which are named by Elohim Himself in Genesis 1.

Genesis 2:4
4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day YHWH Elohim made Earth and Heavens.

Earth and Heavens were not made and named in the same day:

Second Yom, (Yom Sheni)

Genesis 1:8
8 And Elohim called the firmament Heavens, and there was evening and there was morning: Yom Sheni.

Third Yom, (Yom Shelishi)

Genesis 1:10
10 And Elohim called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and Elohim looked thereon for good was good.

There is no way around it if the text in 2:4 is read correctly: both Heavens and Earth are made in the same day, which therefore must be a greater day than the days found in the first chapter. Thus we have six yamim-hours plus the Shabbat hour of Gen 2:1-3 in the sacred calendar day of the creation account.

The civil calendar day is taught in Numbers 7, twelve yom-hours in a yom-day: the day wherein the altar was anointed, each prince in his day, (hour). Too bad the lexicon makers know nothing of this, or they would have surely included this definition of a yom-hour in their lexicons.

When the spies came back with an evil report the penalty was forty years for forty days. Ezekiel the Prophet is told to lay on his side three hundred and ninety years for Yisrael and forty years for Yhudah, a day for a year. In Psalm 90 a thousand years are as yesterday when it is passed, and as a watch in the night which is a mere three hours. And of course from Peter we have the statement that a thousand years with the Master are as one day and one day is as a thousand years.

What is it then? If a yom can be a twelve hour civil calendar day, and if a yom can be a year, and if a yom can be a thousand years, and if a yom can be a watch in the night which is only three hours, then certainly a yom can be an hour: for Yom is Light, according to the Word of Elohim in Gen 1:5a where it says, "and Elohim called the Light, "Yom", (thus yom is light, not necessarily the English word day. Every hour of the day has an evening and a morning just as every twelve hour civil calendar day, (surely Elohim did not take seven full twelve hour days to speak the words attributed to Him in the opening creation account).

Tzadok-Sundial.PNG
 
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Aunty Jane

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hmmm, at each stage of Creation God said all he had created was very good....ie, no death!
I wonder how that fits in with flesh tearing dinosaurs?
Since all creatures created by God were vegetarians....there was no flesh tearing dinosaurs.....
Gen 1:29-30...
“Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30  And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so.”

Animals will return to their vegetarian ways in the new world to come....

The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
The lion will eat straw just like the bull,
And the serpent’s food will be dust.

They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.” (Isa 65:25)

JFYI, death was a natural part of the life cycle in the animal kingdom....only humans were made in God’s image, and designed for everlasting life. This means that animals are unaware of death as they have no concept of the future....they live only in the present. They live, eat, drink and reproduce by instinct, not intelligent planning. Humans alone are the only creatures in existence who can contemplate their own death....it explains why death is so foreign to us, why we fear it, and why we fight to live.
 

quietthinker

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Since all creatures created by God were vegetarians....there was no flesh tearing dinosaurs.....
Gen 1:29-30...
“Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30  And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so.”

Animals will return to their vegetarian ways in the new world to come....

The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
The lion will eat straw just like the bull,
And the serpent’s food will be dust.

They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.” (Isa 65:25)

JFYI, death was a natural part of the life cycle in the animal kingdom....only humans were made in God’s image, and designed for everlasting life. This means that animals are unaware of death as they have no concept of the future....they live only in the present. They live, eat, drink and reproduce by instinct, not intelligent planning. Humans alone are the only creatures in existence who can contemplate their own death....it explains why death is so foreign to us, why we fear it, and why we fight to live.
Death is alien to God....in any realm
 

Exegesis

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Chapter one is in detailed chronological order, but chapter 2 is a “history”, not in chronological order but in order of importance.

Again not in chronological order...

Again not chronological but explanatory.

Listen to yourself. Your interpretation of the creation narrative is so filled with error and contradiction that nothing makes sense, so you tell everyone that the verses are 'not in chronological order', over and over again, as if that is a perfectly normal thing to do. Not only do you have to take away and add to the Word, but you now have to re-order the verses? That is insane. It's one excuse after another with you.

My interpretation changes no words. Moreover my interpretation requires no 'rearranging' of verses to make sense. Everything is in chronological order and works perfectly. Why is that worse than what you did?
 

Aunty Jane

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Death is alien to God....in any realm
Don’t look now, but humans were created mortal. It didnt mean that they had to die, only that they could if they broke God’s law. If death was alien to God, why was there a death penalty?

Where are the dinosaurs? They were long gone before humans arrived on the earthly scene to introduce death through sin. (Rom 5:12) Do animals sin?

Death is not alien to God at all....he had no compunction in ending the lives of those who rebelled against him. In one night, 185,000 Assyrian soldiers perished due to the actions of one angel.

He sent plagues and snakes when Israel sinned....much death resulted. Why? When God says “don’t do” something, he means it. Step over the line and you deserve what you get. Can you complain that it’s “not fair”? You can try....(Matt 7:21-23) God’s justice is perfect.

Christ is due to arrive again soon as judge, with an angelic army whose job it is to eliminate the “goats” and leave the “sheep” to enjoy life here on this beautiful planet....Spaceship Earth. Only God has the power to undo the damage that satan and his cronies have caused to God’s handiwork here. (Rev 11:18)

And if no death occurred among those of a vast animal kingdom, and reproduction was maintained, what would be the outcome? When living things were told to “fill the earth” with their “kind”....what happens when capacity is reached? Animals have a natural cycle of life and death. That is why God created the carrion creatures...the ‘clean up crew’ who were the only creatures designed to eat flesh.

All others were to be vegetarians. (Gen 1:30)

It’s all there in the Genesis account.
 

quietthinker

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Don’t look now, but humans were created mortal. It didnt mean that they had to die, only that they could if they broke God’s law. If death was alien to God, why was there a death penalty?

Where are the dinosaurs? They were long gone before humans arrived on the earthly scene to introduce death through sin. (Rom 5:12) Do animals sin?

Death is not alien to God at all....he had no compunction in ending the lives of those who rebelled against him. In one night, 185,000 Assyrian soldiers perished due to the actions of one angel.

He sent plagues and snakes when Israel sinned....much death resulted. Why? When God says “don’t do” something, he means it. Step over the line and you deserve what you get. Can you complain that it’s “not fair”? You can try....(Matt 7:21-23) God’s justice is perfect.

Christ is due to arrive again soon as judge, with an angelic army whose job it is to eliminate the “goats” and leave the “sheep” to enjoy life here on this beautiful planet....Spaceship Earth. Only God has the power to undo the damage that satan and his cronies have caused to God’s handiwork here. (Rev 11:18)

And if no death occurred among those of a vast animal kingdom, and reproduction was maintained, what would be the outcome? When living things were told to “fill the earth” with their “kind”....what happens when capacity is reached? Animals have a natural cycle of life and death. That is why God created the carrion creatures...the ‘clean up crew’ who were the only creatures designed to eat flesh.

All others were to be vegetarians. (Gen 1:30)

It’s all there in the Genesis account.
Hebrews 2:14
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
 

shepherdsword

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The phrase 'surely die' shows up dozens upon dozens of times in the Old Testament. One of the most famous examples is in Genesis 2:17:



What does surely die mean? There are many interpretations to choose from:
  • Spiritual death (whatever that means)
  • Separation from God
  • Begin the aging process and slowly die
  • Death is certain... 'eventually'
  • Other?
So how do we know which is the correct interpretation? What if there is another interpretation that is not even taught? These are important questions which will be addressed in this post. If Christians are teaching the wrong interpretation, that would throw Biblical doctrine into turmoil and chaos. Such a foundational teaching should not be filled with error. We need to get this right the first time.

Looking at the original Hebrew, we find that the word 'surely' is not even there:

View attachment 72863


It is the Strong's number 4191 'muth' occurring twice in a row:


It is often transliterated as 'dying you shall die'. Variants of the phrase “dying you shall die” occur 49 times in the Old Testament. This is not very helpful as the phrase 'dying you shall die' is awkward and confusing and could mean all kinds of things. Therefore, it is best to use Exegesis to determine the proper meaning. In other words, we will let Scripture interpret Scripture and look at the phrase in question in other verses to see how it is used. Let us now examine our first verse:



Now, if we insert one of the common interpretations, we have:



Does that make sense? Not at all. Let's try another:



It just gets worse. As we can see none of the common interpretations work. We can do this over and over again:



Nope, that does not work either. Again:



As we can see, no matter what interpretation we use, they all fail the most basic tests of Exegesis. So why do Christians use them to interpret Genesis 2:17? We have a huge problem here. This comment sums it up best:

Finally, to interpret Genesis 2:17 as announcing natural consequences instead of a juridical penalty ignores the overwhelming biblical evidence of how authors used the phrase in question throughout the Old Testament. As such, the natural consequences interpretation seems to establish human arbiters as higher authorities than the text to determine its truthfulness and relevance. Scripture no longer interprets Scripture. How the pastor handles texts like Genesis 2:17 remains vital to maintaining a ministry faithful to the authority of Scripture and that properly disciples the church members in their walk with God.

The above comes from a very well done study that can be found here:

I guess I have always defined "death" in Gen 2:17 as being cut off from God. If it referred to simple physical death then everyone that has ever physically died has paid the price for their sin.
 

Aunty Jane

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Hebrews 2:14
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
Good grief mate....that is in relation to humans, not animals....we were not created to die, but living forever had conditions....hence the TKGE that was in the garden, which was the tree that would introduce death, whilst the other tree meant living forever. They chose the wrong tree and introduced death.

Only then was the access to the tree of life denied! Death would now be their penalty.
 
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quietthinker

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Good grief mate....that is in relation to humans, not animals....we were not created to die, but living forever had conditions....hence the TGGE that was in the garden, which was the tree that would introduce death, whilst the other tree meant living forever. They chose the wrong tree and introduced death.

Only then was the access to the tree of life denied! Death would now be their penalty.
You miss the point!