Is your faith defined by what you DON'T believe? - The anti-doctrinal stance

[JohnDB]

Do we even understand grace?
I doubt it.

Up to the limits that a person has the ability to....most definitely.

You extend grace to those who have been evil towards you and sometimes it gets difficult....and there is a limit of how much grace you can extend because you are merely human.

Compared to those who always are trying to "teach others a lesson"....and there's a wide disparity.

 

[GodsGrace]

Up to the limits that a person has the ability to....most definitely.

You extend grace to those who have been evil towards you and sometimes it gets difficult....and there is a limit of how much grace you can extend because you are merely human.

Compared to those who always are trying to "teach others a lesson"....and there's a wide disparity.

Agreed.

But I meant God's grace toward humankind.
I doubt we could understand it.
Really understand it.

I read a book about it many years ago...
it made me realize it goes beyond what we could describe.

A little book written by Wayne Montblaeu.
Did you ever hear of him?
He was a popular radio Christian personality --- I think he was a pastor.
He was one of the first persons I listened to after leaving the CC.

 

[JohnDB]

Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people that there is no Satan or EVERLASTING Hell Fire!

Oh....with the previous explanation concerning Satan....there most definitely is a Hell.....however it's not the literal fire and brimstone of legend. And indeed it is most unpleasant. Just like standing in front of the Judge of the Earth without so much as a prayer that you spoke in sincerity to your benefit. Zero evidence of any faith whatsoever. The dread, shame, embarrassing evidence of guilt when compared to God's Holiness in full view. No lie can be uttered either....no reprieve. The only claim you could make is an agreement of guilt....no different from what Sodom would say.

 

[GodsGrace]

Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people that there is no Satan or EVERLASTING Hell Fire!

Right.
There's a saying about this but I forget it.

Satan wins when a person believes he does not exist...
or something like that.

 

[JohnDB]

Agreed.

But I meant God's grace toward humankind.
I doubt we could understand it.
Really understand it.

I read a book about it many years ago...
it made me realize it goes beyond what we could describe.

A little book written by Wayne Montblaeu.
Did you ever hear of him?
He was a popular radio Christian personality --- I think he was a pastor.
He was one of the first persons I listened to after leaving the CC.

I haven't....but that doesn't mean that I don't have an imagination. It must be like Spaceballs (movie) with Ludicrous Speed. Something beyond insanity.....

 

[Jack]

Right.
There's a saying about this but I forget it.

Satan wins when a person believes he does not exist...
or something like that.

It's never too late until it's too late. For thousands of humans, today is too late.

 

[JohnDB]

Right.
There's a saying about this but I forget it.

Satan wins when a person believes he does not exist...
or something like that.

I'm personally not sold on an autonomous being named Satan. I've described earlier the anthropomorphic conception and it is rather a daunting proposition.

I've never met Satan myself but I know I can be evil all on my own. "Lead me not into temptation because I got better shortcuts than you could ever dream of".

 

[Jack]

I'm personally not sold on an autonomous being named Satan. I've described earlier the anthropomorphic conception and it is rather a daunting proposition.

You don't believe in Satan? You will.

I've never met Satan myself but I know I can be evil all on my own.

Have you ever met God?

"Lead me not into temptation because I got better shortcuts than you could ever dream of".

 

[JohnDB]

You don't believe in Satan? You will.

Have you ever met God?

Oh yes....
I have my own personal relationship with God....
It's kinda scary.
I've witnessed too much to not believe.

 

[Jack]

Oh yes....
I have my own personal relationship with God....
It's kinda scary.
I've witnessed too much to not believe.

You met Him???

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm personally not sold on an autonomous being named Satan. I've described earlier the anthropomorphic conception and it is rather a daunting proposition.

I've never met Satan myself but I know I can be evil all on my own. "Lead me not into temptation because I got better shortcuts than you could ever dream of".

Here's how I figure it John.
If good comes from God...
then evil must come from satan.

There are those that state that evil is the absence of good.
I don't think so.
Evil is real and I hear about some angels that fell from heaven.

Every group has a leader!

And....I guess you don't believe in exorcisms then...
but they're real.

 

[JohnDB]

You met Him???

God? Kinda....I do have a "down payment" of sorts of the Holy Spirit within me.

It's something I guard most seriously.

 

[Jack]

God? Kinda....

You "Kinda" met God? You said you met Him.

I do have a "down payment" of sorts of the Holy Spirit within me.

It's something I guard most seriously.

 

[JohnDB]

Here's how I figure it John.
If good comes from God...
then evil must come from satan.

There are those that state that evil is the absence of good.
I don't think so.
Evil is real and I hear about some angels that fell from heaven.

Every group has a leader!

And....I guess you don't believe in exorcisms then...
but they're real.

Exorcism was something that came about from the Persian Empire....you know Cyrus and his dualistic religion Zoarastrianism.

Ok....so way beck then a person/family who thought that one of them was possessed by an evil spirit would go to a specific Zoaraster priest who would then give you a potion so you could see whether you had the demons or not. Then when you returned he would give you more of the potion so he could then bind up these demons and free you.
BUT
Nothing was done for free....that potion was made of wormwood...highly addictive and hallucinogenic. People needed that potion constantly....and of course an Exorcism too.

Now the Jews were never convinced....they understood a con artist when they seen one. (Jacob is a title meaning con artist)

However, that's not what Jesus did. And the priests, Rabbi, and Pharisees would all say that Jesus was definitely wrong but doing something right at the same time.....Jesus used no potions, He didn't charge any fees, He didn't sell them anything. And the strangest thing of all was that they remained perfectly healed every time.

Kinda like making Jesus sit in the boat after passing them on the Sea of Galilee with Jesus just walking on water.

 

[St. SteVen]

Exorcism was something that came about from the Persian Empire....you know Cyrus and his dualistic religion Zoarastrianism.

Zoarastrianism was from the 6th century.
Jesus, and the Jews before Him were exorcising demons. (casting them out)

Matthew 12:27-28 NIV
And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul,
by whom do your people drive them out?
So then, they will be your judges.
28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons,
then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Exorcism was something that came about from the Persian Empire....you know Cyrus and his dualistic religion Zoarastrianism.

Ok....so way beck then a person/family who thought that one of them was possessed by an evil spirit would go to a specific Zoaraster priest who would then give you a potion so you could see whether you had the demons or not. Then when you returned he would give you more of the potion so he could then bind up these demons and free you.
BUT
Nothing was done for free....that potion was made of wormwood...highly addictive and hallucinogenic. People needed that potion constantly....and of course an Exorcism too.

Now the Jews were never convinced....they understood a con artist when they seen one. (Jacob is a title meaning con artist)

However, that's not what Jesus did. And the priests, Rabbi, and Pharisees would all say that Jesus was definitely wrong but doing something right at the same time.....Jesus used no potions, He didn't charge any fees, He didn't sell them anything. And the strangest thing of all was that they remained perfectly healed every time.

Kinda like making Jesus sit in the boat after passing them on the Sea of Galilee with Jesus just walking on water.

I don't know about all that.
But I DO know that exorcisms are real.

Not like the ones in the movies...Hollywood style.
I mean real ones.

But it's OK if you don't believe a person could be possessed...
I'm not here to convince you.

 

[JohnDB]

Zoarastrianism was from the 6th century.
Jesus, and the Jews before Him were exorcising demons. (casting them out)

Matthew 12:27-28 NIV
And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul,
by whom do your people drive them out?
So then, they will be your judges.
28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons,
then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

The term Zoastrianism or Mazdaism is from the chief priest of the religion Cyrus brought with him when conquering the known world at that time. That's the religion that I'm referring to.
Check out His Empire's religion and get back to me. Names have never been a strong suit but the when and where are solid.

 

[ProDeo]

If I read sister Lizbeth correctly, she did take that "golden rule" position originally, but backed-off to an Arminian "election by foreknowledge" position. I'll let her speak for herself.

I think you've described what John Wesley called God's universal but resistible "prevenient grace", which was Wesley's answer to the Calvinist combination of total depravity plus irresistible grace, the T and I of TULIP. Is her experience a universal "golden rule", that God MUST act with I to overcome T in a person's heart for faith to occur? If not all come to faith, the logic is inescapable: You must also accept U, L, and P and scissor 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:4, and 2 Peter 3:9 out of your Bible, because they're a lie. God does not desire all to come to repentance and be saved, and Christ didn't die for the sins of the whole world.

Like I said, that last sentence is near the top of my list of things I DON'T believe. Besides, if Man is not capable of having faith, how does he trust the persons he does trust and believe the things he does believe?

I always admired those who grew up in church, believed everything they heard from the culprit pulpit without questioning. I did not had that kind of faith and still have not. For me faith is a gift from God rooted on an experience I could not deny.

***Edit

 

[ProDeo]

One size may not fit all. Sisters Lizbeth and RitaJanice may well have been called by an irresistible grace; I have no way of telling.

Count me in, and I am definitely not a Calvinist

 

[St. SteVen]

I always admired those who grew up in church, believed everything they heard from the culprit without questioning. I did not had that kind of faith and still have not. For me faith is a gift from God rooted on an experience I could not deny.

LOL
Was that a typographical error?
"believed everything they heard from the culprit without questioning."

I am wondering if you meant "pulpit"?