What Does 'Surely Die' Mean?

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Aunty Jane

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Greetings Aunty Jane,

I thought that the definition of "mortal" is "subject to death", not "capable of dying". Mortality and death were introduced after Adam sinned.
We can understand “mortality” only when contrasted with “immortality”...these are opposites like life and death, but since satan changed the definition of death by telling the woman that she would not die, he invented the concept of an “immortal soul” when there is no such thing.

By its very nature a “soul” is a living, breathing creature...entirely mortal....dependant on external means to keep living...and which were provided by God for all his mortal creatures.

The “soul” that was Adam, (not that was given to Adam) died and returned to the dust, just as God said he would. Adam did not continue to exist as a spirit in some invisible realm....there was no such realm when creation began. Humans were not created to die...sin is what created death. Sheol was then the place to bury the dead. Sheol is the Hebrew word translated into Greek as “hades”...it is not a place of conscious torment but a place of rest.....of complete unconsciousness....a state of suspended animation if you like.

The dead are not forgotten by God, but they can be forgotten by man within a few generations, unless they were famous for some reason.

If we cannot accept the fact that the dead are actually dead, then we have also fallen for the same satanic lie. This lie plays into man’s inbuilt programming to go on living....death is an awful concept, as is old age, sickness and disability....it wasn’t meant to happen, so we are not programmed for any of them. (Eccl 3:11)
 

Aunty Jane

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Listen to yourself.
Perhaps you need to do the same.....I have never heard of your version of Genesis...is it your very own, or did you get the idea from someone else?
Your interpretation of the creation narrative is so filled with error and contradiction that nothing makes sense, so you tell everyone that the verses are 'not in chronological order', over and over again, as if that is a perfectly normal thing to do. Not only do you have to take away and add to the Word, but you now have to re-order the verses? That is insane. It's one excuse after another with you.
Do you not see that you too are making excuses for what you believe...? Nothing you have said is backed up by the Bible’s overall narrative. It’s one story, with one author, with one beginning and one end....nothing you or I believe will change that. Nor will the opinions of thousands of others who think that they cannot be wrong. Opinions are a dime a dozen....what makes yours so special? Do you have a direct line to God? Sadly many think that they do....

We are to be messengers of the Kingdom with “good news” for people....(Matt 10:11-14; Matt 24:14)

So what is the message that is good news? What is the Kingdom, and how does your scenario relate to anything the Bible says about it? Where do these other people before Adam fit into the Bible’s narrative....and Christ’s rescue mission.....and what became of them? Why does the Bible not mention them?
My interpretation changes no words. Moreover my interpretation requires no 'rearranging' of verses to make sense. Everything is in chronological order and works perfectly. Why is that worse than what you did?
Mine doesn’t either....it’s not the words but the interpretation that is so “out there” as to be completely foreign to anything the Bible says concerning Jesus and his sacrifice and what will be accomplished by it in the end.

It clearly states that Gen 2 is a history, not recorded chronologically, because it was an explanation adding more detail to what was already written in ch 1.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings Aunty Jane,
We can understand “mortality” only when contrasted with “immortality”...these are opposites like life and death
I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I still object to your statement that before Adam sinned he was a mortal. I looked up the Macquarie Dictionary and it endorses my understanding of the word mortal as subject to death. Mortality and death were only introduced after Adam sinned, not before.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

quietthinker

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Again you make statements without explaining....I am not a mind reader....please tell me what point I missed....
There is no point explaining AJ. Your mode is telling people, it is not one of making enquiry. You operate from the position of understanding all. It disables your ability to see other possibilities.
If I was to explain the point, nothing would be achieved except another round of excessive words from yourself. You have to figure it out yourself...if that is possible!
 

Aunty Jane

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Greetings Aunty Jane,

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I still object to your statement that before Adam sinned he was a mortal. I looked up the Macquarie Dictionary and it endorses my understanding of the word mortal as subject to death. Mortality and death were only introduced after Adam sinned, not before.
Think about it Trevor....the two distinctive trees in the garden were there for a reason....
Consuming the fruit of the tree of life meant “everlasting life” but not “immortality”. Unless we know the difference nothing will make sense. All creatures on earth are mortal...which means that if you deprive them of oxygen, food or water, they will die. Adam and Eve had no natural means of death, but lost their access to the only thing that would keep them living perpetually......why else would God bar access to the tree of life, even posting guardian cherubs to make sure they never went near it. ( Gen 3:22-24)

An immortal cannot die because they possess life within themselves....no external means of life support are needed......immortal means that there is no way to die. It is an indestructible life that was the possession of God alone before he bestowed it on his son, after his successful mission on earth. His elect will also inherit immortality once they too have died faithful.

If Jesus had been an immortal, he couldn’t have died. If Adam had been an immortal the penalty for eating the fruit would have been an empty threat.

Angels, even though they have spirit bodies and not needing the same life support as we do, are not immortal because God can destroy them. Immortality is the power of an indestructible life.
 

Aunty Jane

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There is no point explaining AJ. Your mode is telling people, it is not one of making enquiry. You operate from the position of understanding all. It disables your ability to see other possibilities.
If I was to explain the point, nothing would be achieved except another round of excessive words from yourself. You have to figure it out yourself...if that is possible!
I give up QT...what is the point of responding to you when you have nothing to say to explain your own responses....I think I will put you back on ignore....there is apparently no way to explain anything to you unless I use 20 words or less.....it’s not my fault if you have the attention span of a goldfish....
 

quietthinker

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I give up QT...what is the point of responding to you when you have nothing to say to explain your own responses....I think I will put you back on ignore....there is apparently no way to explain anything to you unless I use 20 words or less.....it’s not my fault if you have the attention span of a goldfish....
Father forgive AJ, she doesn't know what she is doing!
 
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Hiddenthings

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The phrase 'surely die' shows up dozens upon dozens of times in the Old Testament. One of the most famous examples is in Genesis 2:17:

What does surely die mean? There are many interpretations to choose from:
  • Spiritual death (whatever that means)
  • Separation from God
  • Begin the aging process and slowly die
  • Death is certain... 'eventually'
  • Other?
So how do we know which is the correct interpretation? What if there is another interpretation that is not even taught? These are important questions which will be addressed in this post. If Christians are teaching the wrong interpretation, that would throw Biblical doctrine into turmoil and chaos. Such a foundational teaching should not be filled with error. We need to get this right the first time.
Leviticus 17:11 “For the life (Heb. nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls (nephesh); for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul (nephesh).”

No afterlife or ethereal wafting off to heaven - death is the total cessation of life.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings Aunty Jane,
All creatures on earth are mortal...which means that if you deprive them of oxygen, food or water, they will die.
You are giving a different definition to the word mortal. Adam was not mortal, that is, subject to death, until after he had sinned. When created he was in a position of not possessing eternal life, but also not mortal, that is, subject to death. He had the potential through God's mercy to go in the direction of eternal life, or if he sinned to be judged and sentenced to eventually return to the dust.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

ScottA

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I saw another thread of yours where you touched on this. I agree, the traditional way of interpreting time in the Bible is way off.

I believe the passage you refer to fits well with the end of Noah's Flood. No more delay. The 2300 years of Daniel begins when the rainbow is placed in the cloud. Look who we find:



Why would he have a rainbow on his head? To bring it to earth after the Flood?



We could be looking at a reference to something that happened long ago.



Hmmm. Good question. I am all ears if you wish to share.
Regarding Noah and Daniel, your comments and considerations are insightful. However, the details I am cautious to explore, as that was their part(s), and what is given to me is rather the end. Now I don't know what I may have shared with you or what you have read of what I have stated as being given to me--but that is why I asked you to consider the method by which God has revealed every knew thing in due season. It is by that same method that I have come by what I am now speaking of (as my part), which is from God, not mine, but mine to reveal.

As for the "rainbow on his head", this is because the rainbow is the sign of the promise of God not to again destroy the earth with water--but also a sign of Him alternatively fulfilling that which He has foretold would also come as a flood. Which is the pouring out of His spirit "upon all flesh", meaning not only upon the saints, but upon "all"--upon the evil as well as the good. In other words, Noah's flood was not spiritual but natural, "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual." Which then refers, yes, to long ago--to the prophetic message within "Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so." Those waters referring to spirits above and below--those of heaven and those of this world below.

As for Genesis and Adam, whether their is one referred to in chapter 2-3, and perhaps another "man" in chapter 6: Many have speculated down through the ages. But what was and is only possible to know for certain (as with much of scripture), was only to come when the restraint of time-based knowledge would come with "time no longer" just before the sounding of the seventh angel. In other words, we have by our nature and living in this world only known or even considered to look at any of scripture except by the same timeline on which it has all been revealed to us. That (Time) has been our rule, our basis for understanding--and also our restraint placed upon us by God--by "He who restrains."

As I said before, "time no longer" does not refer to the end of time or to a time of no more "delay"--as it is not listed chronologically at the end--but before the end. And "delay" no longer is also not correct, as Christ did not "delay", but very specifically stated that things "must shortly take place." Which brings me to my part, and what has been given to me to reveal (according to the method that God has historically established, as being His way):

"Time no longer" is rather the removal of time as the basis by which much of the scriptures are actually based and understood. But instead, as being of the same timeless nature of God. Which, from our perspective sounds impossible. However, it is the way of God who is perfect, and the way we are to "follow" Christ in becoming "perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect."

When and if we can even begin to wrap our minds around the idea, then things like "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" and we "were" crucified with Christ, etc., are just the beginning of all that scripture reveals to the greater understanding and mind of God--which is the promise of "all truth." Then, rather than explaining away such passages and language as metaphoric or figures of speech, or trying apply a form of cultural logic and practices, these become the pillars of understanding things God's way, from His perspective, which we ought to expire to no matter how difficult. And I must say--not only is it enlightening--but it is like learning a new language. This is "the renewing of your mind", as it is written. All of which would not be possible without first "rightly dividing the word of truth"--which came first for this very reason--of what is written pertaining to this world from that which is not.

Which, in practice, means reading and considering everything over again, first considering the worldly context (of course)--but more importantly--asking and considering why it is even written. If there is no eternal Why?, what remains is rather worldly--words to live by, yes--but not to live by unto God.

You might consider it. Alternatively, as it was with Israel and the apex of all that was revealed of the flesh in Christ, many are more likely to reject Him also in spirit, and have already only to die and be awaken to weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I would consider Adam and the "man" in Genesis 6 as an advanced "time no longer" topic. If you consider what is written of "the first Adam, and that Last Adam"...there is very little room for elaborating another in Genesis Chapter 6, except that--yeah, sure, every man in his way is his own Adam--even as one man, as we are also One in Christ.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Greetings Aunty Jane,

You are giving a different definition to the word mortal. Adam was not mortal, that is, subject to death, until after he had sinned.
There was no natural cause of death for humans in the beginning....access to the tree of life was freely available...but the warning about death was attached to the other tree, which represented God’s Sovereign right to limit the freedom that he gave them. Only if they ate of that tree would death come knocking...
When created he was in a position of not possessing eternal life, but also not mortal, that is, subject to death. He had the potential through God's mercy to go in the direction of eternal life, or if he sinned to be judged and sentenced to eventually return to the dust.
Where was that everlasting life to be originally spent?

Mortality was normal among the animal kingdom, (humans now had no advantage over the animals. (Eccl 3:19-20) but man alone being made in God’s image, meant that he was not designed to die, even though he lived in mortal flesh...but it still required access to an external means to support that life, perpetually.
All the life support necessary for all living things was supplied generously by God....but the only thing he remove altogether was access to the tree of life. They were not going to live forever in sinful flesh.

As soon as disobedience took place, sin took over and God immediately evicted them from the garden as the ingrates that they became.....no longer would they freely access the fruits of the garden.....now outside, they had to plant seed and till “cursed ground” to make “bread” so that they could live....compared to what they had...look what they lost!

No longer could they access the “tree of life” as it was permanently barred whist sin resided in them.
God even posted angelic guards, and “the flaming blade of a sword” to make sure that no access could be obtained....it would serve as a constant reminder of what they had done. (Gen 3:22-24)
 

Exegesis

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Perhaps you need to do the same.....

I always listen to my critics. That is how I was/am able to correct myself. The narrative you have promoted has been debunked countless times on other forums. Christians would learn so much if they visited forums that allowed free thought/speech without all the constant censorship and thread deletions. Bible critics know where the problems are. Christians are never able to solve them without a ton of effort.

You folks put yourself in a tiny bubble and never go out to see how non-Christians despise your lies. The world is fed up. Get out of your Safe Space and deal with the reality of it.

Most of my research focuses on the so called 'contradictions' and 'mistakes' that the critics are experts at debating. I am trying to fix the problems you and other here constantly make.

What you have presented so far would be debunked in nanoseconds by those that are not brainwashed by the false dogmas you adhere to. I am trying to help all of you folks survive the 'fiery darts'. I know how to defend the Word against their attacks. You folks here do not.

I have never heard of your version of Genesis...

Whenever I hear someone say something like that, I hear...

"If *I* never heard of it, then it *must* be false because I know everything!".

Or...

"God always informs me first! So how could God reveal something to you before he reveals it to me!"


Never ending hubris.

is it your very own, or did you get the idea from someone else?

About 90% of it comes from the brightest minds out there. It has taken me decades to put all of this together. Endless books, videos, websites, forum discussions have contributed. Some of the research comes from the 'old skool web' when extremely intelligent people spent their precious time interacting with the public. That is rare now. It's like the blind leading the blind anymore.

The minute someone hears that water is wet or grass is green they scream BLASPHEMY!!!

It's all so tiresome.

Do you not see that you too are making excuses for what you believe...?

Not a single person has debunked anything I have said so far. Comments like the above prove nothing and are a waste of my time.

Nothing you have said is backed up by the Bible’s overall narrative.

Again, neither you nor anyone else has proven that. It's just a bunch of hot air to me.

It’s one story, with one author, with one beginning and one end....nothing you or I believe will change that.

OK, and? What is you point? I am not debating that.

Nor will the opinions of thousands of others who think that they cannot be wrong.

The OP deals with fact, not opinion.

Opinions are a dime a dozen....what makes yours so special?

Again, Genesis 2:17 is *literal*. This is *fact* not opinion. How many times must I post this before you accept correction? This is what I mean when I refer to you and others having cognitive dissonance.

Genesis 2:17 does not refer to some make believe, unicorn, fake news death in which the First Adam and Ishshah do not go to the grave after partaking of the Forbidden Fruit. They died within a twenty-four hour period. That is what you and everyone else needs to accept. The case is closed. I am simply informing people that they better correct their doctrine or be branded as a false teacher.

Do you have a direct line to God?

Yes, I have the Bible.

Sadly many think that they do....

Bla bla bla. Your comments prove nothing. I will probably start ignoring you. I simply do not have time to respond to constant ad-hominems.

We are to be messengers of the Kingdom with “good news” for people....(Matt 10:11-14; Matt 24:14)

And yet you teach that a God of Love either annihilates the unsaved or burns them for infinity. That will never *EVER* be good news. The word 'hypocrite' comes to mind. Like I already mentioned, I know how to defend myself against the darts the Devil throws. You do not. In other words, you have no good news for those who lost loved ones that were not believers. This is a fact.

So what is the message that is good news?

If you paid attention to what I have written so far, you would have that answer. Maybe you can go back and consider what I have spent a great deal of time posting instead of dismissing it all. There is enough there to put it all together. I would be so impressed if you accomplished this little task.

What is the Kingdom, and how does your scenario relate to anything the Bible says about it? Where do these other people before Adam fit into the Bible’s narrative....and Christ’s rescue mission.....and what became of them? Why does the Bible not mention them?

Mine doesn’t either....it’s not the words but the interpretation that is so “out there” as to be completely foreign to anything the Bible says concerning Jesus and his sacrifice and what will be accomplished by it in the end.

It clearly states that Gen 2 is a history, not recorded chronologically, because it was an explanation adding more detail to what was already written in ch 1.

If you were sincere, I would answer your questions. Sadly, all you are doing is being rude and condescending to me. I am done with you. Later.
 
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Exegesis

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As for the "rainbow on his head", this is because the rainbow is the sign of the promise of God not to again destroy the earth with water--but also a sign of Him alternatively fulfilling that which He has foretold would also come as a flood. Which is the pouring out of His spirit "upon all flesh", meaning not only upon the saints, but upon "all"--upon the evil as well as the good. In other words, Noah's flood was not spiritual but natural, "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual."

Perfect. Now think of 'waters' as being symbolic of definition #3:

1. water
2. (figuratively) juice
3. (by euphemism) urine, semen


It's all about Seed/DNA. It is so profound that most will never comprehend it because they are permanently on the milk.

The meat is euphemism. It is for *adults* to understand. Christians are never taught the meat.

Look at the verse you referenced from 1 Corinthians. Did you see the most important part?

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Seed!

Which then refers, yes, to long ago--to the prophetic message within "Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so." Those waters referring to spirits above and below--those of heaven and those of this world below.

Hey, not bad! The Waters are absolutely symbolic of something other than H20.

Seed above, Seed below. To every seed his own body. Glorified Body/Corrupt Body. We all come from the #3 definition of Waters.

"He who restrains."

I believe the Restrainer is Apollyon/Abaddon. I guess that will be for another thread... lol.

As I said before, "time no longer" does not refer to the end of time or to a time of no more "delay"--as it is not listed chronologically at the end--but before the end. And "delay" no longer is also not correct, as Christ did not "delay", but very specifically stated that things "must shortly take place." Which brings me to my part, and what has been given to me to reveal (according to the method that God has historically established, as being His way):

Is New Jerusalem already built? John saw it, so the answer is yes. And yet, it is still future to us. I look at New Earth and New Heavens as a parallel universe. It exists in a different reality. John travelled there and back through a worm-hole. I have no issues with advanced concepts of time.

When and if we can even begin to wrap our minds around the idea, then things like "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" and we "were" crucified with Christ, etc., are just the beginning of all that scripture reveals to the greater understanding and mind of God--which is the promise of "all truth."

If this forum didn't continually delete free speech, I could tell you much about your above comments. They have much in common with Genesis and the First Adam.

I would consider Adam and the "man" in Genesis 6 as an advanced "time no longer" topic. If you consider what is written of "the first Adam, and that Last Adam"...there is very little room for elaborating another in Genesis Chapter 6, except that--yeah, sure, every man in his way is his own Adam--even as one man, as we are also One in Christ.

Jesus is the first and the last. That is about as much as I can say due to the milk drinkers freaking out.
 
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Exegesis

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Leviticus 17:11 “For the life (Heb. nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls (nephesh); for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul (nephesh).”

No afterlife or ethereal wafting off to heaven - death is the total cessation of life.

That last comment is incorrect. One of the most famous verses of Genesis debunks your claim immediately:

Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

This is not 'poetry' or some silly figure of speech. It is quite literal and one of the many keys to understanding what a soul actually is.

Abel was still alive in the blood, just like your verse states. Moreover, it speaks during atonement just like your verse alludes to:

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

How did Abel's blood become a blood of sprinkling? Maybe I can expand on that one day. For now...

What does blood have to do with a person's soul? How does life exist in blood? The answer is simple. It's all about Seed/DNA. Blood contains the Word Made Flesh that turns into a Tabernacle:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

We know this to be referring to DNA. Long story short, a soul is synonymous with what we now call a Genome. That's it. That's all there is to it. The Bible teaches this concept over and over. Think Tables of the Heart:

2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Tables of the heart = Genome (Heart and Soul) Get it? Blood in the heart? Life?

One day God will rewrite our Genomes to remove sin. It's a Genetic Engineering process. Stone with Seven Eyes = Nitrogen Base.

God created a Genome from the 'dust' of the ground:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What does man return to?

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Dust is symbolic of the organic compounds all life returns to after death and decay. DNA cries from the ground.

Dust is Seed:

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

The symbology is extremely profound.

Once God created a Genome from the Dust, he placed the Spirit of the First Adam into it.:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now, Adam is Spirit + Soul. He has no physical Body yet. He is just a Living Soul at this point. That is how people are resurrected. The Tree of Life gives the Body later after the marriage.

How can you be born again before the marriage?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Sword/DNA. Spirit and Soul combined...

1762399427248.png

The Sheath is the Body...

Daniel 7:15 (Literal Standard Version) My spirit has been pierced—I, Daniel—in the midst of the sheath, and the visions of my head trouble me;

Later, God clothed the Living Souls with a Body:

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Now they are physical Tripartite beings:
  1. Body
  2. Soul
  3. Spirit
What did Job say?

Job 10:11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.

The Soul and Spirit are clothed with a Tabernacle.
 
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Hiddenthings

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That last comment is incorrect. One of the most famous verses of Genesis debunks your claim immediately: the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Thanks for the laugh....Exegesis:

The phenomenon of literal blood crying from the ground might be common where you’re from, but over here, that would be some seriously strange stuff happening in your neck of the woods.
 

Exegesis

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I just took you off ignore @Hiddenthings to give you another chance. Back on ignore you go.

FYI to those reading this thread...

This is not an academic response:

1762400300290.png

All it does is make you look like a dunce. Remember those clowns in class? They always laughed and made fun of the teacher?

Don't be a dunce would be my advice.
 

Hiddenthings

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I just took you off ignore @Hiddenthings to give you another chance. Back on ignore you go.

FYI to those reading this thread...

This is not an academic response:

View attachment 73217

All it does is make you look like a dunce. Remember those clowns in class? They always laughed and made fun of the teacher?

Don't be a dunce would be my advice.
You made me laugh with that last comment, Exegesis, because your understanding is so absurd that it’s clear you don’t grasp the meaning of Genesis 4:10. It really makes me wonder why you even bother if there’s no genuine sincerity in your search for truth.
 

Hiddenthings

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May 19, 2025
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@Spiritual Israelite

Your foolishness is inexcusable!

What does Genesis 4:10 teach?

How utterly senseless it is to imagine that anything can be hidden from Yahweh. That is exactly what the verse is teaching, Spiritual discernment! How vain and empty are the lies we use to conceal our sins, for truly, “all things are naked and exposed to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

Even those times when you try in vain to misrepresent a verse and think you can uphold your error with it.

I'm glad to be placed on ignore and to remain there thanks