Why do some churches require a process to be baptized?

[NotTheRock]

Thanks in advance!

 

[doctrox]

From the OP:​

Why do some churches require a process to be baptized?

As the priestly class, the classic Nicolaitans, they are scheming to be the sole arbiters of God's word. Because they have built their kingdom on the backs of the sheeple, they are afraid of losing their status and their stuff, even to the point of killing Jesus:

If we let [Jesus] thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation....Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. (John 11:48, 53).

Their minds are corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor. 11:3).

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings NotTheRock,

Why do some churches require a process to be baptized?

Our fellowship requires each candidate to espouse and confess a reasonable understanding of the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Name of Jesus and be motivated to identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus by baptism in water. With some people this requires significant instruction depending on their background and sometimes previous different beliefs. Water baptism is also a commitment to then live the crucified and resurrected life motivated by the love of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[NotTheRock]

Greetings NotTheRock,

Our fellowship requires each candidate to espouse and confess a reasonable understanding of the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Name of Jesus and be motivated to identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus by baptism in water. With some people this requires significant instruction depending on their background and sometimes previous different beliefs. Water baptism is also a commitment to then live the crucified and resurrected life motivated by the love of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thank you.

In my humble opinion knowledge of scriptures shouldn't be required. It's certainly not biblical. I believe a statement of faith, repentance, and a desire to follow and emulate Christ in all things should suffice. To require more than that is to potentially turn away those that want baptized. Again, just my humble opinion. Thanks again.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again NotTheRock,

In my humble opinion knowledge of scriptures shouldn't be required. It's certainly not biblical.

Surely a basic understanding of the scriptures centred in all things relating to our Lord Jesus Christ is necessary and very biblical

I believe a statement of faith, repentance, and a desire to follow and emulate Christ in all things should suffice.

Yes, but our fellowship does have a "Statement of Faith", which is a summary of all aspects of the Gospel of Christ and we require our baptismal candidates to acknowledge this, and our members also maintain and continue to consent to this Statement of Faith.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[NotTheRock]

Surely a basic understanding of the scriptures centred in all things relating to our Lord Jesus Christ is necessary and very biblical

Desirable? Of course. Necessary? No. I've known people who knew little to no scriptures but who believed in Jesus and absolutely lived like him. People who profess belief and demonstrate that belief daily by emulating Christ are certainly ready to be baptized, in my humble opinion.

 

[HealthyShape]

In the church where I was baptized in, it was only about one or two (I do not remember) short talks between me and the elders about whether I understand the gospel and what is baptism.

 

[NotTheRock]

...our fellowship does have a "Statement of Faith", which is a summary of all aspects of the Gospel of Christ and we require our baptismal candidates to acknowledge this, and our members also maintain and continue to consent to this Statement of Faith.

I believe a statement of faith is entirely appropriate, depending on what the statement says, of course. :) Are you able to share yours?

To me it could be as simple as "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is both my Lord and Savior and with this baptism I pledge to repent from sin and to try and emulate Jesus every day in both deeds and thought."

 

[NotTheRock]

@TrevorHL

I don't want to nitpick or split hairs. I'm 100% in favor of people studying and understanding what Jesus wants and expects from those who wish to follow him.

Let me share more. I have been looking for a church through which I can be baptized. I haven't found one. I rejected a number of them because their baptism ceremonies are conducted like game shows or circuses and I want no part of that! I then found one I liked but their pastor wanted me to answer a littany of questions, take his church's online courses, and have a witness provide a written statement about how I have repented. This information was related to me by one of the church elders. I asked for biblical support for this process but, of course, he had none. Oh yeah, I was also required to be a regularly attending member, which I cannot do due to logistical and other reasons.

So here I am. :)

 

[Muna]

From the OP:​

​

As the priestly class, the classic Nicolaitans, they are scheming to be the sole arbiters of God's word. Because they have built their kingdom on the backs of the sheeple, they are afraid of losing their status and their stuff, even to the point of killing Jesus:

If we let [Jesus] thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation....Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. (John 11:48, 53).

Their minds are corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor. 11:3).

It also said he did not speak this of himself either, notice that?

John 11
[47] Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
[48] If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
[49] And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
[50] Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
[51] And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
[52] And not for that nation only, (1 John 2:2) but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
[53] Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.


Caiaphas said,

John 11
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

What Caiaphas said brought up here also, same wording

John 18
14 Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.

But then Jesus also said it was expedient for them he went away also

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Just the wording between them also

 

[Deborah_]

Some churches may have good reason for quizzing people who ask for baptism.

In the UK there have been a number of cases of Muslim immigrants asking for baptism in order to improve their chances of getting asylum in the UK (because if they are "Christians" they can claim to be at risk of persecution in their home country). Once baptised and granted permission to stay, they mysteriously 'lose' any connection with a church. At least one has gone on to commit an act of Islamist terrorism.

In my (fairly limited) experience, if you are already attending or known to a church, getting baptised is a simple and straightforward process. But if you come in "off the street", its it were, I don't think it's unreasonable to be asked about your background and to provide a certain amount of evidence. Baptism is, after all, a serious business.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again NotTheRock,

I believe a statement of faith is entirely appropriate, depending on what the statement says, of course.

Perhaps our method has changed over the years. When my future wife and a few years later I was baptised we were questioned on a reasonable range of our standard beliefs, but in a simple way. And this was in front of members, family and often Sunday School scholars. Then some of our meetings adopted a much more thorough examination, but this was considered too laborious and demanding. More recently one of our senior members instructs the applicant over a period of time if necessary, depending on their background and then invites another senior member with him in attendance to discuss and examine the applicant privately. When these two senior members are satisfied, the baptismal night then usually consists of the applicant reading his own brief statement of his conviction and his desire for baptism, and this is usually witnessed by many members..

Oh yeah, I was also required to be a regularly attending member, which I cannot do due to logistical and other reasons.

We prefer regular attendance, but since covid our meeting and many other similar meetings are now available by you-tube or similar streaming or viewing after the event. I attend our meeting but others are sick or otherwise inconvenienced. I am able to access the recordings of the meeting where I grew up, and also the meeting where I spent many happy years before relocating to a regional area 160 km away. Some of the members of all three meetings live 100's of km away, and some interact on Zoom. The Bible Class of one meeting with quite a few older members is conducted exclusively on Zoom and as a result is very friendly and interactive, while the other two are in their hall and more formal.

People who profess belief and demonstrate that belief daily by emulating Christ are certainly ready to be baptized, in my humble opinion.

Perhaps you would be disappointed if you knew the full spectrum of our beliefs, even in a simple summary. We do not encourage an open fellowship, but prefer to settle most major differences at an early stage. My grandfather was training to be a Methodist Minister when he encountered someone in our fellowship. He became a school teacher instead. He seemed to conform for many years, and many of his descendants of his large family are still in fellowship and in a very active manner. But eventually he fell out, living in isolation on his farm, possibly resuscitating some of his old ideas, and inventing a few new ones of his own. He tried to baptise me when I was 16, but I was not ready on many counts, and also I was not happy even at my early age with two of his ideas that he held. I considered that I was ready five years later and this was also with the help and under the influence of a number of dedicated members.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[doctrox]

Caiaphas said,

The malicious counsel of Caiaphas isn't obvious at first, but John clarifies in verses 51 & 52.

He did not speak it of himself. It was intended that the council would be stirred up against Christ, but it was an oracle, declaring it the purpose and design of God by the death of Christ to save God's spiritual Israel.

God can and often does make wicked men instruments to serve his own purposes.

Today's denominations carry on in the selfsame spirit of Caiaphas.

 

[Muna]

The malicious counsel of Caiaphas isn't obvious at first, but John clarifies in verses 51 & 52.

Here is verse 51:52

[51] And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
[52] And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

How can you reconcile speaking maliciously when it records for us that he was not speaking of himself?

He did not speak it of himself.

Agreed

It was intended that the council would be stirred up against Christ, but it was an oracle, declaring it the purpose and design of God by the death of Christ to save God's spiritual Israel.

Here it shows what God can do through counsel, defeating even the good to bring evil upon another

2 Sam 17:14 And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

God can and often does make wicked men instruments to serve his own purposes.

I agree

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

And even if they might have meant it for evil, God for good

Genesis 5:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

God's counsel shall stand, and He will do all His pleasure ... "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him" Isaiah 53:10

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

 

[NotTheRock]

Greetings again NotTheRock,

Perhaps our method has changed over the years. When my future wife and a few years later I was baptised we were questioned on a reasonable range of our standard beliefs, but in a simple way. And this was in front of members, family and often Sunday School scholars. Then some of our meetings adopted a much more thorough examination, but this was considered too laborious and demanding. More recently one of our senior members instructs the applicant over a period of time if necessary, depending on their background and then invites another senior member with him in attendance to discuss and examine the applicant privately. When these two senior members are satisfied, the baptismal night then usually consists of the applicant reading his own brief statement of his conviction and his desire for baptism, and this is usually witnessed by many members..

We prefer regular attendance, but since covid our meeting and many other similar meetings are now available by you-tube or similar streaming or viewing after the event. I attend our meeting but others are sick or otherwise inconvenienced. I am able to access the recordings of the meeting where I grew up, and also the meeting where I spent many happy years before relocating to a regional area 160 km away. Some of the members of all three meetings live 100's of km away, and some interact on Zoom. The Bible Class of one meeting with quite a few older members is conducted exclusively on Zoom and as a result is very friendly and interactive, while the other two are in their hall and more formal.

Perhaps you would be disappointed if you knew the full spectrum of our beliefs, even in a simple summary. We do not encourage an open fellowship, but prefer to settle most major differences at an early stage. My grandfather was training to be a Methodist Minister when he encountered someone in our fellowship. He became a school teacher instead. He seemed to conform for many years, and many of his descendants of his large family are still in fellowship and in a very active manner. But eventually he fell out, living in isolation on his farm, possibly resuscitating some of his old ideas, and inventing a few new ones of his own. He tried to baptise me when I was 16, but I was not ready on many counts, and also I was not happy even at my early age with two of his ideas that he held. I considered that I was ready five years later and this was also with the help and under the influence of a number of dedicated members.

Kind regards
Trevor

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

 

[doctrox]

Baptism is, after all, a serious business.

...a business, indeed.

How can you reconcile speaking maliciously when it records for us that he was not speaking of himself?

His personal intent was for maliciousness, but God's was not. God can and does use anyone to do his purposes.

Why do some churches require a process to be baptized?

Ritualized denominational behavior is akin to idolatry - all flash, no substance. The "process" aspect provides a suitable basis for control that the "church" leadership is coveting. Also, the worldly "churches" of today cannot understand the spiritual significance of "baptism" outside of an OT Jewish water ritual, so of course they would default to "process."

 

[Muna]

His personal intent was for maliciousness, but God's was not. God can and does use anyone to do his purposes.

How can you even prove someone who did not say that thing of themselve's had a malicious intent in speaking it?

 

[JohnDB]

There have been many various requirements for baptism by many different churches over the centuries.

Churches behind the iron curtain (before it fell) required a 2 year class and same of perfect attendance before they will consider baptizing you. It still was up for a vote first.

Early America required a one year of classes and successful oral testing of the knowledge related to you. Such was a poor student that Dwight had to take the classes twice before successfully testing....you might know him as DL Moody today.

It once was something that you had performed just before you died so that you couldn't sin after you were baptized. Such was the Empirer Constantine.



Do you know the three FUNCTIONS of Baptism?

Can you name 3 scriptures each of how Jesus performed the roles of Priest, Prophet, and King? (Total of 9)

Can you explain the "A, B, C's of Salvation" ?

For most churches if you can answer these questions they usually don't have an issue with getting you baptized.

 

[Jay Ross]

In third world countries, people are instructed on what the consequences will be if they are baptized.

In a Muslim country, being baptized could mean that your family will kill you because of the shame that you bring upon the family.

In a Hindu country, if you become baptized you might be rejected by the family or even killed.

In a Buddhist country you may be rejected by your family.

The pastors ensure that those wanting to be baptized know the seriousness of their decisions. That they may be killed for becoming a Christian.

What is the consequence of being baptized in a "designated" Christian Country? Not very much. The consequence for becoming a Christian is very mild and you will not suffer for your beliefs.

 

[doctrox]

How can you even prove someone who did not say that thing of themselve's had a malicious intent in speaking it?

The intent of Caiaphas, a Jewish high priest in the temple, was clear. He was a Sadducee and an organizer of the plot to kill Jesus. He sent Jesus to Pilate and he presided over the Sanhedrin trial of Jesus.