3 ands don't change that are nouns and names for every noun phrase in baptize into the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit.
How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?
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Not all of the trinity is unique theism. Jesus the mangod, the separation of spirit from the father entity stinks of Hellenism. So do the Arians. Don't make a figure or a model and expect to represent the invisible spirit of God.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Just checking. A triad which has the same essence is not implied by that verse.
GH,,,you know very well that I could post just as many verses, if not more, about the fact that Jesus is God...using also the OT.
The reason I'm going to stop posting is twofold:
1. I don't normally go on for pages about one topic...
2. I don't care to discuss/debate the Trinity because, as you know, I believe a Christian MUST believe the Trinity.
I just opened a thread about this.
3. You're doing what most do... refusing to believe what the early church taught.
And the early church believed Jesus was God and I've posted enough on this and will not do so again.
Catch you next time around !
LOL
Difficult to get off this thread GH!
If Jesus said to baptize IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT
It means they all have the same power,,,the same nature....the same essence.
It means they are equal.
Jesus knew what He was talking about.
OK.
Now I'm going.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Bob and Bill and Fred = 1 person
Yahweh and Yeshua and Holy Spirit = 1 God
1 + 1 + 1 = 1
Do not use that math for your check book, bad things will happen.
Yahweh and Yeshua and Holy Spirit = 1 God
1 + 1 + 1 = 1
Do not use that math for your check book, bad things will happen.
No, 3 persons, but for example 1 family.
Yes. But three persons. If we wanted to suppose that Yahweh always refers exclusively to Father, which is probably not the case.
Misrepresentation.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
God is not our checkbook!
It will not work for taxes either or anything else that is real.
That math only works for things that are hocus pocus alakazam
Yes, your math is nonsense. Because you mix persons and God as if they were the same kind of "1".
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
A little history….
The disagreements concerning Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.
Various beliefs of the time period…
1. There were 3 Gods---Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.
2. There were 2 Gods and the Holy Spirit was not a God but the Spirit of Yahweh.
3. Yahweh was Almighty God Supreme and senior to God the Son Yeshua.
4. Like Yahweh, Yeshua always existed.
5. Yahweh was the creator God of all things.
6. Yeshua was the creator God of all things.
7. Yahweh was the only God.
8. Yahweh impregnated Miriam and Yeshua was conceived and delivered by Miriam. Yahweh begot His Son Yeshua and so Yeshua was a God. All these terms are in the scriptures.
9. Yahweh did not impregnated Miriam, the pre-existing Christ manifested in her womb as an infant. And so Yeshua was the adopted Son of Yahweh.
10. Yahweh and the Holy Spirit was involve with Yeshua’s conception.
11. Yeshua was 100% God and man.
12. Yeshua’s body was human and His Spirit was God.
13. Yahweh and Yeshua were of the same substance.
14. Yahweh and Yeshua were not of the same substance.
15. Yahweh gave all authority over to Yeshua.
16 Yahweh gave all authority over to Yeshua’s ministry.
And there was probably more that we do not know about.
None of the representatives of the Churches brought the belief of the 3 Gods in one. The 3 Gods in one formula for the Trinity was a ruling of the Ecumenical Counsels. Not that it was intended to be accurate or the truth but Emperor Constantine insisted on one belief. So they came up with a belief that did not side with any one Church so as to stop the arguments. And condemned any other belief. Those that opposed the 3 in 1 formula for the Trinity were condemned, excommunicated, or killed.
The term Trinity is not in the scriptures but it was coined early on, maybe in the 1st century but it was not defined as 3 Gods in 1 until the 4th century.
The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.”
The Church went on to produce the belief of the perpetual virginity of Miriam. She was a virgin before and after she conceived and before and after delivering Yeshua. More hocus pocus…beaming Him in and out of Miriam’s womb.
Then the Church produced the false doctrine of Original Sin.
The Protestant reform should have kicked all this out. There are over a hundred scriptures that prove the 3 in 1 formula false and this belief skews the meaning of over a hundred scripture. The single most harmful belief that hinders understanding of the scriptures…..as seen with all tap dancing that people do to defend it.
The disagreements concerning Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.
Various beliefs of the time period…
1. There were 3 Gods---Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.
2. There were 2 Gods and the Holy Spirit was not a God but the Spirit of Yahweh.
3. Yahweh was Almighty God Supreme and senior to God the Son Yeshua.
4. Like Yahweh, Yeshua always existed.
5. Yahweh was the creator God of all things.
6. Yeshua was the creator God of all things.
7. Yahweh was the only God.
8. Yahweh impregnated Miriam and Yeshua was conceived and delivered by Miriam. Yahweh begot His Son Yeshua and so Yeshua was a God. All these terms are in the scriptures.
9. Yahweh did not impregnated Miriam, the pre-existing Christ manifested in her womb as an infant. And so Yeshua was the adopted Son of Yahweh.
10. Yahweh and the Holy Spirit was involve with Yeshua’s conception.
11. Yeshua was 100% God and man.
12. Yeshua’s body was human and His Spirit was God.
13. Yahweh and Yeshua were of the same substance.
14. Yahweh and Yeshua were not of the same substance.
15. Yahweh gave all authority over to Yeshua.
16 Yahweh gave all authority over to Yeshua’s ministry.
And there was probably more that we do not know about.
None of the representatives of the Churches brought the belief of the 3 Gods in one. The 3 Gods in one formula for the Trinity was a ruling of the Ecumenical Counsels. Not that it was intended to be accurate or the truth but Emperor Constantine insisted on one belief. So they came up with a belief that did not side with any one Church so as to stop the arguments. And condemned any other belief. Those that opposed the 3 in 1 formula for the Trinity were condemned, excommunicated, or killed.
The term Trinity is not in the scriptures but it was coined early on, maybe in the 1st century but it was not defined as 3 Gods in 1 until the 4th century.
The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.”
The Church went on to produce the belief of the perpetual virginity of Miriam. She was a virgin before and after she conceived and before and after delivering Yeshua. More hocus pocus…beaming Him in and out of Miriam’s womb.
Then the Church produced the false doctrine of Original Sin.
The Protestant reform should have kicked all this out. There are over a hundred scriptures that prove the 3 in 1 formula false and this belief skews the meaning of over a hundred scripture. The single most harmful belief that hinders understanding of the scriptures…..as seen with all tap dancing that people do to defend it.
Again, Trinity does not mean three Gods in one. It means three persons in one God.
I have no idea why you and ProverbsInPink do not get it and repeat your mistake over and over again. Your ignorance starts to look intentional at this point.
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GH....
Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin?
HOW COULD THAT BE?
It's impossible!!
So, you say 3 individuals with the same existence. @Grailhunter forgot the modelist trinitarians who did not separate God into 3 distinct attributes.
It's just a matter of actually reading the Nicene or the Athanasian creed. But it seems it is too much work for some and they feel better just imagining some nonsense and presenting it as the Trinity doctrine.
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