What is not clear to you is the concept James is expressing. He says he will show you his faith by his works thus proving they are one thing. It's like he is saying "show me your faith that has no works" Meaning there is no such faith. He then says I will show you faith by works...proving that the type of works he is speaking of (not of his own power) are one with faith and cannot be separated. Faith ALLWAYS has works but works do not always spring from faith. Sometimes they are an effort of the flesh
James said
show, not establish. James did not say faith "is" works but we do
show our faith by our works. People with faith will produce works (some more than others). Works that after being tested by fire turn out to be wood, hay or straw, will be burned, but works that turn out to be gold, silver, precious stones, will be rewarded. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) Noah showed his faith by building the ark after God told him that He would flood the earth, yet Noah had already
found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a
just man who walked with God (
Genesis 6:8,
9) and a
preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5)
before he built the ark. Noah's obedience/works was a
demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Again, faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Faith is the foundation of a believer's relationship with Jesus Christ and the means of receiving salvation and works are the outflow of a transformed life, serving as
evidence of a living faith. Turning faith and works into one and making no distinction between the two culminates in works-righteousness.
Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
You can wiggle and squirm and wrest this into some caricature it was never meant to be but James is saying that true faith always has works.
I agree that true faith always produces works. We need to understand that James is not using the word "justified" in
James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is
shown to be righteous. James is discussing the
evidence of faith (
says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will
show you my faith by my works -
James 2:14-18)
and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (
Romans 4:2-3)
The greatest work of all is it's completion....the salvation of the soul. This does not contradict Paul because he was speaking of the works based on self effort in order to reach justification. That cannot happen. We are sabed by the WORK of the cross.
We are saved through faith by the work of the cross (Romans 3:24-26) and not by works of self-effort or by works of righteousness which we have done. (Titus 3:5)
Now you are clutching at strawmen. I am not saying water baptism or communion or any other ceremonial ritual is saving works.
I was not trying to imply that you are in full agreement with the RCC on these works as being saving works. I was just making a point about what happens when one turns faith and works into one thing, making no distinction between faith and works and basically redefining faith as works. In other words, works become inherent in faith and the end result is salvation by faith and works/works-righteousness.
I am saying we are saved by faith and faith always has works.
I agree with that.
This is what both Paul and James taught. Well what work you say? This one:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
Notice in
Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.
This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (
Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.
In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (
Proverbs 1:7;
Psalm 2:11;
Psalm 34:9;
Isaiah 66:2) Not fear of God as if He is a cosmic killjoy and a tyrant who can't wait to punish us. Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in
2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In
1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.
Nothing I say contradicts Eph 2:8-9 I just extend the context to verse 10 and get the whole counsel. I can see by reading this that 1) You didn't read my prior post or 2) You read it but it bounced off your false theological construct. Let me post it again:
Turning "work out" your salvation into "work for" your salvation would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9 and would also culminate in what I call "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.
Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Now how do we walk in these preordained works? By faith...because...faith...always...has...works. Because it brings grace and grace is God's enabling power. So...even your Eph 2:8-9 proves we are not saved by faith alone it says by grace are ye saved through faith
God has before ordained that we should walk in good works but not as a means of obtaining salvation which we have already received through faith but because good works glorify our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16) and good works are good and beneficial for people. (Titus 3:8) When I say we are saved by "faith alone" I am not saying that grace was not involved (grace is God's part and faith is man's part) or that we are saved by the kind of faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) That would not be genuine faith but a bare profession of faith because genuine faith always results in producing good works because believers have been made alive together with Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Genuine faith trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6) Are we getting any closer to an agreement or have we reached an impasse?
