Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[TrevorHL]

Greetings mailmandan,

Those who don't believe that Jesus is God in essence/nature (John 1:1-3, 14) who do they believe Jesus is?

Jesus is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[mailmandan]

Greetings mailmandan,

Jesus is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

A human only?

 

[JohnDB]

If a person is going to define themselves as Christian...
then he must adhere, at the very least, to the basic Christian tenets.

I find it problematic that a person can call themselves a Christian and yet believe that Jesus is not God,,,
which, basically, would be idolatry...

And why would anyone want to follow a man who thought He was God?

So why do we debate the Trinity on these forums?

I found the following on my feed from YouTube.
Sorry, I don't know how to cut.

Wes Huff perfectly explains and supports my position.
Not because Christianity requires Wes Huff to explain its belief system...
It's been there all along - from the beginning.

Mike Winger and Wes Huff
Point 35.15

If someone claims that Jesus is not God they are the Antichrist. Pure and simple.

If someone claims that the Holy Spirit is not God, they are an antichrist as well. Because they are NOT believing Jesus's very words.

Now,
I believe in the Trinity as a minimum. I believe that God is more than we can understand but the Trinity is a minimum which we can apprehend...but people already have an issue with apprehending this...
Obviously because otherwise it would not be an issue already.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again mailmandan,

A human only?

Jesus was the greatest human ever born, but he was made a little lower than the angels Psalm 8:4-6.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings JohnDB,

If someone claims that Jesus is not God they are the Antichrist. Pure and simple.

The concept of the antichrist speaks of the early development of the error of the Trinity, and those that represent the antichrist today and those who will oppose Christ when he returns also hold the Trinity. Pure and simple.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[mailmandan]

Greetings again mailmandan,

Jesus was the greatest human ever born, but he was made a little lower than the angels Psalm 8:4-6.

Kind regards
Trevor

Speaking from his humanity, a little lower than the angels, but speaking from His divinity, co-equal with God. (John 1:1-3, 14; 10:30-33)

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again mailmandan,

Speaking from his humanity, a little lower than the angels, but speaking from His divinity, co-equal with God. (John 1:1-3, 14; 10:30-33)

I have already given a brief summary of my understanding of John 1:1,14. Jesus is a human, the only begotten of the Father Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35. Actually you should quote all of John 10:30-36 where Jesus fully answers their false accusation, claiming that he is the Son of God, not God the Son. Part of his answer contains the quotation of Psalm 82:6 where the Unjust Judges were addressed as "Elohim". What is the full significance of what Jesus is stating here in answer to their false accusation, and why do you side with his accusers. Please do not quote random "Trinitarian" verses without giving attention to what Jesus actually states.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Grailhunter]

Greetings again mailmandan,

Jesus was the greatest human ever born, but he was made a little lower than the angels Psalm 8:4-6.

Kind regards
Trev

The Old Testament described the Messiah as a human warlord King that would liberate them from their oppressors and put them in power and the Mosaic Law would be the Law of the world and the Law and the sacrifices would go on forever......Yahweh's enemies in the Old Testament were Pagans....the whole Kill all that breaths but you can keep the virgins for yourselves....no Devil and no Hell. So Psalms is not talking about Yeshua.

Something(s) happened during the 400 year period between the Testaments and it changed things. Satan became a devil and our and Yahweh's enemy. And Hell would be the punishment for evil doers. And instead of planning on killing Pagans Yahweh decided to eternally save them, but to do that the gates of Heaven had to be opened to Mankind. And establish a closer relationship with mankind. And to do all that the Messiah had to be a God, the Savior of Mankind.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Grailhunter,

So Psalms are not talking about Yeshua.

You have a very distorted view of both the OT and NT which are in harmony with each other. Jesus quotes the Psalms as proof of his ministry and his suffering, death and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Grailhunter]

Greetings Grailhunter,

You have a very distorted view of both the OT and NT which are in harmony with each other. Jesus quotes the Psalms as proof of his ministry and his suffering, death and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

LOL You have a lot to learn.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

It's not automatic that a person goes to hell just because they say they believe in Jesus only such as the united pentecostals denomination.

1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Unless they want to make the false claim that 1 John 2:23 is a lie

Jesus is a human

AND He is God at the same time as being a human

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

It is the 4th century Catholic doctine of 3 in 1 that is false.

You might want to get to know God's Word much better before commenting and actually believe scripture.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

I am skeptical that anybody has a perfect understanding of the relationship and inner-workings of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

Why not believe what God says about Himself in His Word?

 

[JohnDB]

Greetings JohnDB,

The concept of the antichrist speaks of the early development of the error of the Trinity, and those that represent the antichrist today and those who will oppose Christ when he returns also hold the Trinity. Pure and simple.

Kind regards
Trevor

Nope.
I'm quoting the Apostle John.
He is plain, direct, and leaves zero wiggle room on this one.

Jesus is either God to you or you are literally anti-Jesus, the Anti-Christ, the anti-Messiah.

Because if Jesus is not God. Then ALL of the Old Testament is wrong, ALL the New Testament is lies...

But I also know for a fact that Jesus is definitely Very God of Very God.

Anyone believing something else is NOT a Christian. They can be whatever else they wanna be but a Christian.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

zero wiggle room on this one

No wigglin or gigglin

 

[GodsGrace]

For what it is worth, here is a narrative on the concept of the Trinity that was written in the discussion of Daniel chapter 9. It is based on the ways God has decided to reveal Himself during 3 separate periods: before Sinai, at Sinai and after Sinai. I believe He has defined the concept of the "Trinity" in His first three Words.

The Trinity​

Christians have spent two millennia trying to speak faithfully about the one God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob after the cross. The impulse has often been to “explain” how Jesus is God, how the Father is God, and how the Spirit poured out at Pentecost is God—while insisting there are not three gods. This narrative takes a simpler path. It doesn’t try to slice God into parts; it listens to how God Himself defined His nearness in the first three commandments—whom we worship, how we approach Him, and how we bear His Name. The first three commandments were never meant to be just the first three “thou shalt nots.” They are God’s own explanation of how He would draw near to us, reveal His true Image, and make us bearers of His Name. And so, whether Jew or Gentile, we are not asked to invent clever illustrations of the Trinity or to reduce the mystery of God into a triangle, a chord, or three candles burning as one. Nor are we asked to solve the puzzle of “three Gods in one.” God Himself has already given us His definition—clear, sufficient, and living—in His first three commandments. This is not a Christian invention; it is the Bible’s own story from Eden to His return.

I agree totally.
But then Jesus appeared and so did the religion that came to be known as Christianity.

Christianity believes in the 10 Commandments, but they are not a tenet of the Christian religion....
they signify Christian morals that must be kept.

The 10 Commandments are believed by all religions.
This does not make the participants of that religion Christian.

Before Sinai, the one LORD was already making Himself known as Father, Spirit, and Son. The Father is the unseen source who calls, commands, blesses, and judges—“You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” The Spirit draws near without form—hovering over the waters, breathing life, guiding by cloud and fire, and speaking from flame so that Israel could later say, “we heard a voice but saw no form.” And the Son is present from the beginning as the Word through whom all things were made, often recognized in the tangible, face-to-face encounters God gave His people.

Excellent...yes sir, Jesus was present in the OT because He always existed.

Many Christians see Him walking in Eden “in the cool of the day,” visiting Abraham at the Oaks of Mamre, wrestling with Jacob who says, “I have seen God face to face,” standing before Joshua as the Commander of the LORD’s army, appearing as the fourth figure “like a son of the gods” in the furnace—and meeting Hagar in her distress, where she names Him “the God who sees me.” These scenes are not human-made images; they are God-given revelations preparing for the day the true Image would say, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”

At Sinai, that same pattern was inscribed into Israel’s life. The Father’s voice sounded from fire and cloud to give the Ten Words—Israel heard the words but saw no form. On the mountain, Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy elders “saw the God of Israel” and ate and drank in His presence—a seeing Christians understand as the pre-incarnate Son, the true Image who can be seen without consuming those who see. Then, in the camp, the glory filled the Tabernacle; the LORD spoke with Moses from above the mercy seat and shared His Spirit to empower and guide. This is exactly what the first three commandments teach: first, whom we worship—the one LORD who claims our allegiance; second, how we approach—without carved images, because God chooses to be present by His Spirit, not by substitutes we control; third, how we bear His Name—not emptily or falsely, because God was preparing a true Image who would come with the Father’s Name in Him and make us bear that Name in truth. The order matters. Before the Messiah appeared, the second word guarded Israel from filling the waiting with idols; the true Image had not yet come, so God kept His people close by voice and Spirit.

Perfect.
I like to say that the first 3 commandments are about God and how He is to be worshipped.
The 4th is to honor our parents.
And the rest are the do nots....the Moral Law.

After Sinai—and especially after the incarnation—the order is fulfilled in practice. When Jesus came as the exact Image of the Father, Israel no longer had to imagine what God is like or fear that an image of their own making might creep in. The second commandment did not vanish; it reached its goal. Idolatry is silenced not mainly by prohibition but by presence—the true Image stands among us. Having shown us the Father, the Son then sends the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to dwell within, writing God’s ways on the heart so we can truly bear the Father’s Name.

Yes sir.
No one has seen God except He that was with Him...
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

We still worship the one LORD alone, but our approach is no longer a guarded distance; it is a Spirit-indwelt life shaped by the Son who bears the Name and places that Name upon us. So the scriptural order remains, yet its fulfillment reorders our experience: before the Messiah, the commandments guarded and guided until the true Image appeared; after the Messiah, the danger of substitutes is ended by His appearing, and the third word blossoms as God’s own Spirit makes us faithful carriers of His Name.

And here is the point for today. To our Jewish friends: Christians do not worship three gods. We confess the one God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—no other—and we believe that the same God has chosen, from Eden onward, to draw near as unseen Voice, formless Presence, and a visible Fellowship that does not destroy the beholder. To Christians: we do not need to invent new diagrams, clever metaphors, or complicated symbols to defend a “triune” theory. God has already spoken for Himself. He set the pattern in the first three commandments—whom we worship, how we approach, how we carry His Name—and then He walked that pattern through history: the Father commanding and claiming; the Son visiting Hagar, dining at Mamre, meeting Jacob, standing with the faithful, revealing the Father perfectly in the fullness of time; and the Spirit hovering, filling, guiding, and finally indwelling at Pentecost. One God, drawing near in three ways according to His plan, not ours. If we honor that order and that story, we can say with confidence—without reducing mystery to a math problem—that the LORD is one, that He has made Himself known, and that nothing more clever than His own Word is needed to believe it.

I believe we need a formula because many would not be able to come to the conclusion you have been able to see.
Unfortunately, not all are as astute as you are and most of us need explanations. Personally, for me, I don't know if I would ever have been able to see the Trinity in the OT and the NT unless it had been shown to me at some point.

Thanks for a very good, complete and spirit-filled post !

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The 10 Commandments are believed by all religions.

That's not true.

Islam believes their god instructed them to murder Christians and Jews.

Personally, for me, I don't know if I would ever have been able to see the Trinity in the OT and the NT unless it had been shown to me at some point.

You could just believe God's Word.

He provides His Own commentary in His Word which is why we don't need man's commentary which is how satan spreads false doctrine by having people claiming to be "doctor" so and sow, and "theologian" or "professor" write commentaries claiming they are authorities that should be listened to when they are actually speaking for the devil

There's only One Teacher and that is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ Who was sent to lead us in to all Truth and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your experience teaching children is consistent with what I've heard from some (theologically educated) adult teachers. There is no way to explain the Trinity without deviating into heresy.

What percentage of laypersons could define the Trinity in terms consistent with the Nicene, Chalcedonian, and Athanasian Creeds? How many can correctly use the terms "hypostases", "consubstantial", "co-eternal", and "co-equal"? And of those who claim to be Trinitarian, what percentage are effectively Modalists who conflate the persons of the Trinity?

It's not important that the Trinity be understood.
Most do not; however, they accept it as a fact that has always been believed and taught by the church, and eventually the churches (after the reformation). Even those of the reformation believed that Jesus is God and also the Holy Spirit (although the Orthodox in a different way)..they believed in the Trinity.

So, you have a doctrine that most laypersons do not properly understand, nor can they even express correctly, that cannot be explained, and is rarely applied correctly. The whole intellectual foundation is as stable as nitroglycerine. Why would you make this the gatekeeper of what it means to be Christian?

I'm not the one making it a gatekeeper.
Those that were with Jesus believed He was God and they taught those that came after the same.
Arianism was heretical and was stopped by the church by declaring it as such.

I'm an engineer. I write specs, and I represent my company on several industry standards committees. When you make a spec normative, you make sure that you use terminology that is clear and precise. The concerns expressed by the people on this forum with the language used and the history behind it are, in my opinion, legitimate. This is why I accept as brothers and sisters in Christ both Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians.

There IS clear terminology....as you've said, most don't know it.
Whether or not I UNDERSTAND how concrete is made strong....
I still MUST follow the standard set or the bldg might collapse.

You can believe a non-Trinitarian is a brother in Christ....
but the are not Christian.

To be Christian one must believe the following: (at the very least)

1. The Trinity
2. Jesus died and was resurrected.
3. Jesus was fully God and fully man.

 

[GodsGrace]

As a whole no one is debating the Trinity. It is the 4th century Catholic doctine of 3 in 1 that is false. The concept of the Trinity up to the 4th century is biblical. The Bible backs up the belief that Yahweh exists and is a God, Yeshua exists and is a God and the Holy Spirit exists and is a God.

The Apostles knew that all three were Gods but they knew that Yahweh was unique and supreme that is why they made the distinction between Yahweh and Yeshua calling Yahweh God and Yeshua Lord. Not to demean Yeshua just to have a distinction, even Yeshua said the Father is greater than I. But for sure Yeshua is a God.

There are certainly debatable topics concerning them....ergo the arguements at the Ecumenical Councils and the over 30,000 Protestant denominations. But certainly as a whole it is rather short sighted to think if some one does not believe a certian way about the Trinity they are not a Christian or they are not going to Heaven...something that the Catholic Church tried to suggest.

Godhead is a much more accurate term. Three Gods sitting on three thrones, the Son sitting on the right of the Father. Understanding terms is important.....
@GodsGrace You said...I find it problematic that a person can call themselves a Christian and yet believe that Jesus is not God....with all due respect the term God is not a name.... God is not a person. It is a title and or divine position. That is why in the Old Testament the word God was not used often referring to Yahweh because the Hebrew word for God is the same for God or god....Meaning that the Hebrew word for God could refer to Yahweh or Pagan gods. At one time Yahweh's name appeared 6,800 times.

Examples of the Apostle's Creed
The Catholic Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day He rose again. He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

The Protestant Creed
The Apostles Creed Prayer: I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate, Was crucified, dead, and buried: He descended into hell; The third day he rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost; The holy Catholic Church; The Communion of Saints; The Forgiveness of sins; The Resurrection of the body, And the Life everlasting. Amen.

Your discussing the Divinity of Jesus.

I'm trying to understand what Christians are SUPPOSED to believe....
what exactly causes one to be defined as Christian?

Are there some rules that define a person as Christian?

Or can a person fabricate their own definiton of what Christian means?

Is this a good idea?
Does it create or destroy a cohesive religion?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think it depends on how deep we want to go. Can somebody be a Christian without using the formulations/vocabulary of creeds or even with some errors in their view of Trinity? "The grandma living on the farm with just her simple faith, reading the Bible and loving Jesus"? I think so.

I live in a small town of about 5,000.
Born in a smaller town of about 1,200.
Knew many a grandma with her simple faith.
But that grandma followed what the church taught here....
That Jesus is God and that He is to be worshipped.

Doubt the hypostatic union was ever mentioned even by the priest to these folk,,,
but they believed in the Trinity (maybe not by that name)
and they believed in the resurrection.

Today we have persons denying that Jesus was God....
and some even denying the resurrection by claiming it was "spiritual" in nature.

Can somebody be a Christian after the proper understanding of the Trinity and the creeds have been given to them and they intentionally/willfully reject those creeds and continue, even publicly, with their mocking or wrong beliefs? This would be hardly "yes", unless the creeds are wrong or not important.

Yes, correct.
Actually, it IS the creeds that explain exactly what it is that defines a Christian and what we're SUPPOSED to believe.

Christianity is becoming unrecognizable.

 

[CTK]

I agree totally.
But then Jesus appeared and so did the religion that came to be known as Christianity.

Christianity believes in the 10 Commandments, but they are not a tenet of the Christian religion....
they signify Christian morals that must be kept.

The 10 Commandments are believed by all religions.
This does not make the participants of that religion Christian.

Excellent...yes sir, Jesus was present in the OT because He always existed.

Perfect.
I like to say that the first 3 commandments are about God and how He is to be worshipped.
The 4th is to honor our parents.
And the rest are the do nots....the Moral Law.

Yes sir.
No one has seen God except He that was with Him...
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

I believe we need a formula because many would not be able to come to the conclusion you have been able to see.
Unfortunately, not all are as astute as you are and most of us need explanations. Personally, for me, I don't know if I would ever have been able to see the Trinity in the OT and the NT unless it had been shown to me at some point.

Thanks for a very good, complete and spirit-filled post !

Thank you very much for your kind words!!!! God bless always.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings GodsGrace and HealthyShape,

A few of the statements by Mike Winger (on the r.h.s. of the video):
1. There is no such thing as a non-Trinitarian Christian.
2. Christianity by its very definition is Trinitarianism.
3. Trinitarianism is the bar.
4. (However), if proper theological Trinitarianism is explained to you and you reject that, you are rejecting the essentials of Christianity.

So do you agree or not?

Yes, I reject the creeds including Trinitarianism and consider them to be Apostate. I consider that the Bible teaching is that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne, and Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. I am willing to accept the title Biblical Unitarianism if you will not allow me to be called a Christian, but I suggest that this is really between me and God the Father and His Son our Lord Jesus Christ..

Kind regards
Trevor

I have the answer to the question I asked.
Sorry Trevor,,,I don't know everyone on here.

Your salvation is between you and God.
I'm not referring to salvation.

But exactly what do you think defines you as Christian?

Christianity was already defined 2 thousand years ago.
Why do we think we can change what the definition is?

You DID wrote Christian under your avatar.
If you DO NOT believe Jesus is God,,,it is your right and I believe that it does not affect your salvation (although some might but I believe them to be incorrect)
However, your rejection of the Trinity also takes away your right to define yourself as Christian...
Not because I say so...
because the Christian religion says so.

Here are some more of the tenets - which Christiand DO have to agree upon or we're inventing our own religion:

1. The Trinity
2. The Divinity and Humanity of Jesus...the hypostatic union.
3. Jesus' death and physical resurrection.
4. Our salvation through His death and God's grace.
5. The authority of the bible. (instead of, for instance the Quran).
6. The second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of all mankind.