What I do know is that my eternal destiny has already been determined by God and so has yours before we were born, scratch your head on that
Doctrine of Predestination
- Thread starter Big Boy Johnson
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I'm pretty sure that you're right there. A lot of false teaching and indoctrination being replaced by the truth here. I'm not ashamed to admit this fact.
I love hearing the Spirit of Truth communicate with me, transforming me by the renewing of my mind.
One writer wrote and I quote:
Predestination is the Decree of God, whereby{according to the counsel of His own will} He foreordained some of mankind to eternal life, and refused or passed by others for the praise of His glorious Mercy and Justice. Some are vessels of mercy, others are vessels of wrath. “Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ? What if God, willing to show His wrath,and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that he might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory.” Rom.9:21-23.
http://www.supralapsarian.com/pdf/ness-arminianism.pdf 1
Predestination is the Decree of God, whereby{according to the counsel of His own will} He foreordained some of mankind to eternal life, and refused or passed by others for the praise of His glorious Mercy and Justice. Some are vessels of mercy, others are vessels of wrath. “Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ? What if God, willing to show His wrath,and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that he might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory.” Rom.9:21-23.
http://www.supralapsarian.com/pdf/ness-arminianism.pdf 1
Ok. Sure. So God could make a certain number of humans for the new Jerusalem, that is, Jesus has gone to prepare a predertmined number of living places (mansions) and the other humans miss out and spend time in the lake of fire. I get that.
What is doctrine of demons?
What Paul said???
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
Did God create us exactly as He pleased knowing who would burn in Hell FOREVER? Of course He did! He knows everything!
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What you said was NOT God's Truth, that was the twisted words of the devil that John Calvin got from walking after the flesh not knowing the Lord or His Word.
2 Peter 1:10
Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure
You should take heed to God's Word instead of fables from the devil's tables of deception like John Calvin and other so called reformers who also thought the Lord led them to murder those who disagreed with them. (and the catholics are just as bad as the calvinists)
Don't you find it odd that you are in acceptance of doctrines of murderers???
You lookin to whack folks that aren't followers of John Calvin? Isn't that what a good calvinist would do?
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
It's the devil helping people not accept the whole counsel of God by twisting the teachings of the Lord that came thru Paul and other NT writers.
Whatever you do, don't let God's Word get in the way of what you believe!
1 Timothy 2:1-4
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Corinthians 5:19,20
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The calvinists are confused and befuddled which causes them to cherry pick scripture where their reprobate minds can only accept a few passages and throw the rest of God's Word in the trash considering anything not in agreement with their eisegesis to be lies which is why they cannot accept all that God says in His Word.
It's a real shame where the calvinists will be spending eternity, a real shame.
Yeah, the calvinists believe that when a child molester rapes an innocent child, god is the one that caused the rapist to do the dirty deed.
This is because the "god" the calvinists follow is the one Jesus said in John 10:10 that came to steal to kill and to destroy.
SirJamsalot
New Member
Hey, thanks for laying this out. If predestination is a “damnable heresy,” then the apostle Paul may want to edit a couple chapters.
Predestination didn’t start with Calvin
The word is straight out of Scripture: “He chose us in him before the foundation of the world… having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” (Eph 1:4–5)
“Whom he did predestinate, them he also called… justified… glorified.” (Rom 8:29–30)
So the question isn’t whether predestination is biblical, but how we understand it.
Calvin & the WCF don’t erase faith and repentance
Calvin didn’t teach, “You do nothing, don’t even believe.” He taught that we contribute no merit - our adherence to God's law is not meritorious, but a reply to God's grace for saving us - but we really must repent and believe:
“Repent ye, and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” (Acts 16:31)
The Westminster Confession is explicit that God’s decree includes the means of salvation:
God has “appointed the elect unto glory” and has “fore-ordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected… are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit…” (WCF 3.6)
So just like God foreordained the nail should be hammered into the plank, he also foreordained the means - the hammer would hammer the nail into the plank!
So election doesn’t replace faith; it guarantees that, in history, the elect will actually come to Christ (cf. Acts 13:48; John 6:37).
(By the way, that should be a great comfort - God has created YOU for HIS purpose, just like God created the Seraphim, whose purpose was to Praise God every hour of every day, saying "Holy Holy Holy". We too have a purpose! in fact, one day we will judge angels - so we are higher than even the angels - “Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?” 1 Cor. 6:3 ) All that God does is for our Good - without knowing that, we are left with bad decisions that wreck our lives with no good reason or outcome!
Free will and God’s decree – the “how” is mysterious
Here’s the tricky part we both care about: if God foreordains all things, are our choices real? And is God responsible for sin?
The Confession answers like this: God “did… freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures…” wcf 3.1
So in classic Reformed theology:
Our choices are real, responsible, and voluntary. God’s decree is comprehensive. Yet God is not the author of sin.
How that all fits together is above my pay grade. It’s treated as a mystery- just like creation itself. I don’t know how God created the world ex nihilo; I just know that He did. In the same way, Scripture shows God ordaining even sinful acts without being the sinner:
So the Bible already puts God’s sovereign purpose and human responsibility side by side. Calvin and the Westminster divines are just refusing to cut off either side to make it easier on our brains.
The “twofold” decree in WCF
You quoted this rightly: “By the decree of God… some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.” WCF 3.3
That’s weighty stuff. But the same chapter says this doctrine must be handled very carefully and as comfort, not as a fatalistic club:
So I get being wary of bad uses of “Calvinism.” But if I’m going to fight predestination itself, I have to start with Paul in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8–9, because that’s where the language and the logic come from in the first place.
In His Grip!
SirJamsalot!
Predestination didn’t start with Calvin
The word is straight out of Scripture: “He chose us in him before the foundation of the world… having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” (Eph 1:4–5)
“Whom he did predestinate, them he also called… justified… glorified.” (Rom 8:29–30)
So the question isn’t whether predestination is biblical, but how we understand it.
Calvin & the WCF don’t erase faith and repentance
Calvin didn’t teach, “You do nothing, don’t even believe.” He taught that we contribute no merit - our adherence to God's law is not meritorious, but a reply to God's grace for saving us - but we really must repent and believe:
“Repent ye, and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” (Acts 16:31)
The Westminster Confession is explicit that God’s decree includes the means of salvation:
God has “appointed the elect unto glory” and has “fore-ordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected… are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit…” (WCF 3.6)
So just like God foreordained the nail should be hammered into the plank, he also foreordained the means - the hammer would hammer the nail into the plank!
So election doesn’t replace faith; it guarantees that, in history, the elect will actually come to Christ (cf. Acts 13:48; John 6:37).
(By the way, that should be a great comfort - God has created YOU for HIS purpose, just like God created the Seraphim, whose purpose was to Praise God every hour of every day, saying "Holy Holy Holy". We too have a purpose! in fact, one day we will judge angels - so we are higher than even the angels - “Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?” 1 Cor. 6:3 ) All that God does is for our Good - without knowing that, we are left with bad decisions that wreck our lives with no good reason or outcome!
Free will and God’s decree – the “how” is mysterious
Here’s the tricky part we both care about: if God foreordains all things, are our choices real? And is God responsible for sin?
The Confession answers like this: God “did… freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures…” wcf 3.1
So in classic Reformed theology:
Our choices are real, responsible, and voluntary. God’s decree is comprehensive. Yet God is not the author of sin.
How that all fits together is above my pay grade. It’s treated as a mystery- just like creation itself. I don’t know how God created the world ex nihilo; I just know that He did. In the same way, Scripture shows God ordaining even sinful acts without being the sinner:
Jesus was “delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,” yet Peter says, “you crucified and slew” him. (Acts 2:23)
Joseph: “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good…” Gen 50:20
So the Bible already puts God’s sovereign purpose and human responsibility side by side. Calvin and the Westminster divines are just refusing to cut off either side to make it easier on our brains.
The “twofold” decree in WCF
You quoted this rightly: “By the decree of God… some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.” WCF 3.3
That’s weighty stuff. But the same chapter says this doctrine must be handled very carefully and as comfort, not as a fatalistic club:
“This high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care… so shall this doctrine afford… humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.” WCF 3.8
So I get being wary of bad uses of “Calvinism.” But if I’m going to fight predestination itself, I have to start with Paul in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8–9, because that’s where the language and the logic come from in the first place.
In His Grip!
SirJamsalot!
You just claimed God sinned and then God doesn't sin. Do you even believe in Hell Fire?
Ye religionists make GOD look incompetent. He didn't invent mankind so that he could destroy most of them.
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