Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[TrevorHL]

Greetings HealthyShape,

I think that this is a clear logical fallacy. You associate the general orthodox standards (like creeds) with political evils.

The Catholic Church headed up by the Pope has been both political and religious, and persecuted any that did not conform with its teaching:

Daniel 7:23–25 (KJV): 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

One example was the Massacre of Saint Bartholomew's Day where the Catholics persecuted the Huguenots. The Papacy minted a coin to celebrate:

Another example was the persecution of the Anabaptists by both the Protestants and the Catholics. Modern Protestants endorse many of the errors of the RCC and are much more tolerant of the RCC.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ProDeo]

Greetings HealthyShape,

The Catholic Church headed up by the Pope has been both political and religious, and persecuted any that did not conform with its teaching:

Daniel 7:23–25 (KJV): 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Check Daniel with Revelation.

One example was the Massacre of Saint Bartholomew's Day where the Catholics persecuted the Huguenots. The Papacy minted a coin to celebrate:
View attachment 73994
Another example was the persecution of the Anabaptists by both the Protestants and the Catholics. Modern Protestants endorse many of the errors of the RCC and are much more tolerant of the RCC.

Kind regards
Trevor

Daniel 7 has nothing to do with the Reformation.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings ProDeo,

Check Daniel with Revelation.

Yes good advice. I suggest understand Daniel first, for example Daniel 2, 7 and 8 as a basis for a correct understanding of the Book of Revelation. Daniel 2 is a good introduction to the Continuous Historic understanding, which is also the basis of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials of the Book of Revelation. There are many fanciful interpretations of both Daniel and Revelation.

Daniel 7 has nothing to do with the Reformation.

I suggest that the time period of 1260 years speaks of two overlapping periods, the first from Justinian to the French Revolution 1879, and the second from Phocas to the loss of temporal power by the Papacy in 1870. Both of these events witnessed the decline of the power and influence of the Papacy.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Christian Soldier]

How many ways can you be wrong.
I have already provided the scriptures go through the posts.

No, you never provided a single verse of scripture to, to support your private opinion that the father created all things. Neither is your opinion hat there many gods true, in fact everything you believe is based on your feelings, emotions and private opinions, Gods Word refutes and debunks everything you believe

 

[Grailhunter]

No, you never provided a single verse of scripture to, to support your private opinion that the father created all things. Neither is your opinion hat there many gods true, in fact everything you believe is based on your feelings, emotions and private opinions, Gods Word refutes and debunks everything you believe

Kool.....is there a God hat?

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m sure St. Paul appreciates your endorsement. However, my understanding from reading Jewish literature, Jews regard what Protestants call the “ceremonial law” as a holiness code that sets apart God’s people from all other peoples. Read Galatians 2 with that in mind. To James and then Peter, disregarding God’s holiness code would be completely unacceptable. These new “disciples” were not maintaining what God’s people had always believed and practiced, what Jesus himself practiced, and what God's people had fought to the death to defend against the the forces of Antiochus Epiphanes just a couple of centuries before. (See 1 and 2 Maccabees.) So, they disfellowshipped the Gentile Christians in Antioch only a decade after the Resurrection.

I was agreeing with you as to what identifies one that is Jewish...
Sabbath keeping, and some ceremonial laws (circumcision).
What I meant is that Christians are no longer under the Civil or Ceremonial Laws but they are still required to follow the Moral Law.

Another obvious historical turning point was the Protestant Reformation. Also obvious is that there are some doctrinal differences between Catholics and Protestants. One of the Catholics on this board said explicitly he cannot consider me a brother in Christ.

You should advise him that the CC has declared that although some do not have "the full truth", those that are baptized properly ( In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) are united with the CC. This is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Jesus has only one body....not two.
Catholics don't do themselves any favors.

And some of my fellow Protestants are downright ugly in their condemnation of Catholics. That split occurred 500 years ago. Doctrine keeps evolving.

This bothers me just as much and I often post about it when I read incorrect Catholic teaching.

So, if Peter or James or Paul visited a Mass or a worship service today, would they recognize the teachings and the practices?

Here is how the early church celebrated when they gathered together:
They spoke about Jesus and His miracles and what He preached.
They broke bread together and drank wine in remembrance of Him and His sacrifice.

I see this in both the Protestant services and the Catholic Mass.
There are differences...which I'm sure you know, basically regarding the Eucharist.

They might recognize the structure more in the Protestant churches...more simple and to the point.
The Mass is more ceremonial.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay; since we've already established that we can't explain what "Jesus is God" really means without deviating into heresy, let's try something different. Let's explore the practical application of the principle, "Jesus is God".

Here is a good definition of the Trinity:

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.


Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity


1. There is only one God.
2. There are three Persons.
3. They are co-eternal, co-equal.
4. They are uncreated and omnipotent.

Seems easy enough...problems begin when we try to explain it.

There are other definitions just as good..but we dislike stopping at the definition.

"Personhood" implies relationship. What should be our relationship with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost be? How is our relationship with Jesus similar to our relationship with the Father? In what ways are our relationship with each one unique?

This seems easy to me....
Father is the creator. (He created through Jesus).
Son is our Savior.
Holy Spirit is our helper/paraclete.

We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.
We pray to Jesus.

God Father is as a father.
God Son is as a brother.

The Holy Spirit guides us and in relationship I'd say that we are empowered by the Holy Spirit and acknowledge the Holy Spirit....but I don't see a relatioship that can be compared to either the Father or the Son.

We know that the Father loves us as does Jesus.
We emmulate Jesus - He is an example for us.

This is all I can think of right now....
The Lord's Prayer says a lot about God Father....I had a lesson on it that lasted for about 8 weeks. (8 hours).

Is this what you meant?
Care to add anything?

Must leave for a while....

 

[Grailhunter]

Here is a good definition of the Trinity:

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.


Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

This I like.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The Catholic Church headed up by the Pope has been both political and religious, and persecuted any that did not conform with its teaching:

Daniel 7:23–25 (KJV): 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

One example was the Massacre of Saint Bartholomew's Day where the Catholics persecuted the Huguenots. The Papacy minted a coin to celebrate:

Another example was the persecution of the Anabaptists by both the Protestants and the Catholics. Modern Protestants endorse many of the errors of the RCC and are much more tolerant of the RCC.

This is true, thanks for posting.

I'd like to find a genuine Anabaptist church.

Do they even exist anymore?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

God is ONE (1 John 5:7)

Framing it as there are 3 different persons makes it sound like there are 3 different Gods which He is not.

God created man in His own image and we are one person made up of spirit, soul, and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

So would you describe yourself as being 3 different persons?
If you do they'll haul you off top the nut hut!

 

[Grailhunter]

God is ONE (1 John 5:7)

Framing it as there are 3 different persons makes it sound like there are 3 different Gods which He is not.

God created man in His own image and we are one person made up of spirit, soul, and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

So would you describe yourself as being 3 different persons?
If you do they'll haul you off top the nut hut! View attachment 74016

You need to go back to school....?
1. Yahweh is a God.
2. Yeshua is a God.
3. The Holy Spirit is a God.
Equals 3 Gods that form 1 Godhead but not 1 God.
If you like the idea of one God.....become a Jew.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You need to go back to school....?
1. Yahweh is a God.
2. Yeshua is a God.
3. The Holy Spirit is a God.
Equals 3 Gods that form 1 Godhead but not 1 God.
If you like the idea of one God.....become a Jew.

Wow you serve 3 gods?. Hilarious! Larry, Moe, and Curly???

You should really get to know what God says in His Word.

He says there is but ONE God

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... Three are actually One.

In fact.... you and I are three that is one (we are a spirit, we possess a soul, and we live in a body)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Be sure and go around telling everyone you are 3 different people

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I decided not to answer your view of Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 because I consider that these simply and clearly teach that Jesus was a human, the Son of God by birth. I find the Trinitarian view of these verses both confusing and contradictory.

I stand before the judgement of God the Father and His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians 4:3-5.

Kind regards
Trevor

As it is Trevor...it IS God who will be doing the judging...
none will be done on this thread.

It would have been nice if you had addressed your position on this matter instead of addressing whether or not Jesus is God.

IOW, besides "following Jesus"....do you believe there are ANY requirements to being addressed as a Christian?

When you tell someone that you're Christian...what do you think they understand you to mean?
Do you have to explain it to them if you get down into real details in case of some curiosity on their part?

Jews don't believe Jesus is God.
Muslims don't believe Jesus is God.

So what makes YOU different than them?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, as I was trying to say, but apparently failed, is that there are different kinds of Christians. Yes, anybody who says they are following Christ can claim to be a "Christian."

Saying that one follows Christ does not mean they're Christian.
They might be a cultural Christian, as happens to be becoming popular right now.

IF they are following a man...they're just in some kind of cult.
To be defined as Christian, one must believe that Jesus is God.

This doesn't make them a "good Christian." Nor does it have to do with saying they are a "good person" or a "bad person." They can be a very "good person" and be totally wrong about what a "good Christian" is.

A "good Christian" is one who holds to the general orthodox standard of the historical Church. All of the Church denominations hold to some semblance of the Creeds. However, in the case of the Trinity, we have Pentecostal Oneness today, and we have Unitarianism.

OK
Now you're saying that a Christian must hold to a creed.
This is correct and every creed confirms that Jesus is God.

Are these groups "good Christians?" I would say that they are not "good Christians" in the sense of carrying proper doctrine. But I'm not saying that they're "bad Christians" in the sense of not following Christ or in the sense of being "bad people." They are simple "bad Christians" in the sense that for whatever reason they're following a path that is not proper Christian doctrine, as evidenced by the historical Church and its basic beliefs.

How about this:
Following bad DOCTRINE is different than being a bad Christian.
I'd say that if a denomination is not following orthodox, historical doctrine but they believe in the tenets of Christianity...then we'd have to say that they're Christian but incorrect in theology.

This is difficult to say or to dissect. I hope you understand?

Yes. I understand...not sure I agree, as I stated above.

Here are some more tenets of the Christian religion:

The Trinity
Divinity and Humanity of Christ
Jesus' death and resurrection
The Authority of Scripture
The Doctrine of Salvation
The Resurrection - the second coming

To be considered as Christian,,,the above must be inluded in the belief system.

 

[GodsGrace]

God is ONE (1 John 5:7)

Framing it as there are 3 different persons makes it sound like there are 3 different Gods which He is not.

God created man in His own image and we are one person made up of spirit, soul, and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

So would you describe yourself as being 3 different persons?
If you do they'll haul you off top the nut hut! View attachment 74016

Not getting hauled off anytime soon BB.

There is ONE GOD.
Comprised of THREE PERSONS.

You need to find out what a Person is.

Here is a really simple explanation of the Trinity:

The dogma of the Trinity​

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity


The Trinity is the Christian belief that God is one God, but exists eternally as three co-equal and co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Each person is fully God, yet there is only one God, a central doctrine of Christian faith that is often seen as a mystery beyond full human comprehension.

source: Google AI


Look up ANY definition of the Trinity and it'll be exactly the same.


Definitions of PERSON:

What is the biblical definition of person?

Person is the subsistent, incommunicable subject of an intellectual nature—theology now has a notion of person that accounts for the distinct roles of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the biblical description of the economy of Redemption.
source: Encyclopedia.com



What is a person in the Trinity?

'triad', from trinus 'threefold') is a Christian doctrine concerning the nature of God, which defines one God existing in three coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons (hypostases) sharing one essence/substance/nature
source: wikipedia

 

[GodsGrace]

This I like.

Finally !
And there's no heresy involved.

I'll tell you this GH....
the Trinity is VERY difficult to define...which is why I tend to keep away from it - but it'll be brought up in this thread.

Sometimes two persons are saying exactly the same but using different words.
If we would just keep it simple !

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Big Boy Johnson,

I'd like to find a genuine Anabaptist church.
Do they even exist anymore?

I am not sure of the definition "genuine". The Amish and the Mennonites are derived from Anabaptist backgrounds, but they seem to have moved away from some of the earlier teachings, but maintain baptism and pacifism or conscientious objection to serve in the military. I consider these as two genuine beliefs of true Christians, and these are different to Catholics and most Protestants.

My impression is that there developed many factions, an ebb and flow of people and ideas, and the Amish and Mennonites may be derived from some of the later developments and factions. I have never studied this, but I have read the two books by Alan Eyre from Jamaica "The Protesters" and "Brethren in Christ". He has passed off the scene now. I am not sure if his two books are complete and accurate. There must be other literature and resources. The one thing that struck me from reading some of this was the decision by the 25 to baptise, when the practice was christening. This led to their persecution by the civil and religious authorities and most of the 25 were killed.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

It would have been nice if you had addressed your position on this matter instead of addressing whether or not Jesus is God.

I am not sure what you are saying here.

IOW, besides "following Jesus"....do you believe there are ANY requirements to being addressed as a Christian?

Again, obscure.

When you tell someone that you're Christian...what do you think they understand you to mean?
Do you have to explain it to them if you get down into real details in case of some curiosity on their part?

Because of the general misuse of the title "Christian", I usually do not use this method of talking to others. I objected to your position in this thread that a person must believe the Trinity to be a genuine Christian.

Jews don't believe Jesus is God.
Muslims don't believe Jesus is God.
So what makes YOU different than them?

A nonsense question. I believe Jesus is the Son of God, the Saviour.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I am not sure what you are saying here.

Again, obscure.

Because of the general misuse of the title "Christian", I usually do not use this method of talking to others. I objected to your position in this thread that a person must believe the Trinity to be a genuine Christian.

A nonsense question. I believe Jesus is the Son of God, the Saviour.

Kind regards
Trevor

Well, that's it then.

BUT
You yourself have stated that the title Christian is misused.
But you don't say HOW.
Maybe by those that do not keep to Christian tenets?

IOW,,,when we tell someone we're Christian...what we believe SHOULD be understood.

Seems that you haven't grasped my OP...
but Ok.

Catch you next time.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

You yourself have stated that the title Christian is misused.
But you don't say HOW.
Maybe by those that do not keep to Christian tenets?

The following is a true definition of a "Christian". It is those who hold the same teachings and practices of the early Apostles. I suggest that Catholics and most Protestants do not fit this definition. For example, I consider that these believers did not believe the Trinity.

Acts 11:25-26 (KJV): 25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Kind regards
Trevor