Trump has abandoned America First

[Matthias]

“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist have been appointed by God.”

(Romans 13:1, LSB)

”Rights groups estimate that there are between 200,000 and 400,000 Christians in North Korea, and as many as 70,000 Christians have been imprisoned for their faith.”

Are North Korea’s Christians Facing Genocide?

Evidence suggests that the persecution of particular groups, especially North Korean Christians, may even amount to genocide.

www.forbes.com

What do you think @Riven. Would the Christians living in North Korea correct Paul? Do you believe they would say that the despot who leads their country hasn’t been appointed by God?

 

[Riven]

We’re not talking about just anybody. We’re talking specifically about the Apostle Paul.

I know. I'm not trying to diminish his character, in just making a point.

God has granted man an extraordinary amount of free will. Thankfully there is, and always has been, a limitation on free will. If there wasn’t, man would have destroyed himself a long time ago.

If God doesn’t intervene, man will destroy himself. God will intervene in the end to prevent that from happening.

Look, you either have freewill or you don't. You're either a slave or you're not. There's no in between, Matthias.

 

[Matthias]

Better or worse: Nero or Kim Jong Un?

 

[Matthias]

I know. I'm not trying to diminish his character, in just making a point.


Look, you either have freewill or you don't. You're either a slave or you're not. There's no in between, Matthias.

We’re all slaves. Like Paul, I’m a slave of God. Those who aren’t slaves of God are slaves of the devil.

As you said, there’s no in between.

 

[Riven]

We’re all slaves. Like Paul, I’m a slave of God. Those who aren’t slaves of God are slaves of the devil.

As you said, there’s no in between.

Okay. So there's no freewill then. Why pretend otherwise?

 

[Brother Del]

“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist have been appointed by God.”

(Romans 13:1, LSB)

”Rights groups estimate that there are between 200,000 and 400,000 Christians in North Korea, and as many as 70,000 Christians have been imprisoned for their faith.”

Are North Korea’s Christians Facing Genocide?

Evidence suggests that the persecution of particular groups, especially North Korean Christians, may even amount to genocide.

www.forbes.com

What do you think @Riven. Would the Christians living in North Korea correct Paul? Do you believe they would say that the despot who leads their country hasn’t been appointed by God?

I have zero doubt that there is not a so called leader or authority figure on earth who obtained his/her position outside of Gods providential decree.

So then what? What would you suggest? Bloody revolt? Is it not a well documented fact that the greatest movements of the Spirit in church history have had their beginnings in persecution?

And were we not promised by none other than Christ Himself that persecution would be the natural result for any who chose to follow Him?

Christ explicitly stated that His kingdom was not of this world. At the proper time He will return to set up His eternal kingdom. Until then, we are to take up our cross and follow, and count it all joy.

Suffering is a necessary part of life. Suffering for Christ is the greatest blessing one could hope to be worthy to attain. Its all a matter of perspective.

 

[Matthias]

Okay. So there's no freewill then. Why pretend otherwise?

There is freewill. If there weren’t, you’d be a robot.

We have the ability to make decisions - good and bad - in our lives. All of our decisions come with consequences.

 

[Matthias]

I have zero doubt that there is not a so called leader or authority figure on earth who obtained his/her position outside of Gods providential decree.

So then what? What would you suggest? Bloody revolt? Is it not a well documented fact that the greatest movements of the Spirit in church history have had their beginnings in persecution?

And were we not promised by none other than Christ Himself that persecution would be the natural result for any who chose to follow Him?

Christ explicitly stated that His kingdom was not of this world. At the proper time He will return to set up His eternal kingdom. Until then, we are to take up our cross and follow, and count it all joy.

Suffering is a necessary part of life. Suffering for Christ is the greatest blessing one could hope to be worthy to attain. Its all a matter of perspective.

Welcome to the forum.

What would I suggest? Paul instructs us on what we are to do. I suggest following his instructions.

 

[Riven]

There is freewill. If there weren’t, you’d be a robot.

We have the ability to make decisions - good and bad - in our lives. All of our decisions come with consequences.

Except in the realm of politics it seems. I don't get to choose my leaders. That's what you're telling me. Why should I vote then?

 

[Matthias]

Except in the realm of politics it seems. I don't get to choose my leaders. That's what you're telling me.

You get to choose - the Christians living during the reign of Nero didn’t.

You get to choose - but so do others. Just because you choose person X doesn’t mean person X will be elected.

Returning to Paul, did he say that God appoints rulers?

Why should I vote then?

I’ve not told you that you should vote. Many Christians vote to fulfill a civic duty. Many Christians don’t vote at all, for various reasons. Christians have the liberty of voting or refraining from voting (when and where elections are allowed by government authorities.)

My advice to agnostics isn’t vote or don’t vote. My advice to agnostics is listen to, believe and obey Jesus.

 

[Riven]

You get to choose - the Christians living during the reign of Nero didn’t.

You get to choose - but so do others. Just because you choose person X doesn’t mean person X will be elected.

Returning to Paul, did he say that God appoints rulers?

Matthias... you're wearing me out now. It was you that said God chooses the rulers of various countries. So by what mechanism can I challenge God's will?

I’ve not told you that you should vote. Many Christians vote to fulfill a civic duty. Many Christians don’t vote at all, for various reasons. Christians have the liberty of voting or refraining from voting (when and where elections are allowed by government authorities.)

My advice to agnostics isn’t vote or don’t vote. My advice to agnostics is listen to, believe and obey Jesus.

Right. But iut all hinges on whether or not my vote matters more than God's will. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

 

[ProverbsInPink]

“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist have been appointed by God.”

(Romans 13:1, LSB)

”Rights groups estimate that there are between 200,000 and 400,000 Christians in North Korea, and as many as 70,000 Christians have been imprisoned for their faith.”

Are North Korea’s Christians Facing Genocide?

Evidence suggests that the persecution of particular groups, especially North Korean Christians, may even amount to genocide.

www.forbes.com

What do you think @Riven. Would the Christians living in North Korea correct Paul? Do you believe they would say that the despot who leads their country hasn’t been appointed by God?

North Korean people think he is a god.

 

[Matthias]

Matthias... you're wearing me out now. It was you that said God chooses the rulers of various countries.

I directed your attention to what Paul wrote.

So by what mechanism can I challenge God's will?

Just say no. Billions of people challenge God’s will every day. Do it your way. Blow God a raspberry. Tell him to stay out of your life - that’s the mechanism.

Right. But iut all hinges on whether or not my vote matters more than God's will.

God’s will matters far more to me than whoever you decide to vote for.

So you understand where I'm coming from?

You’re coming from an agnostic perspective. You value your will above God’s will.

 

[Riven]

I directed your attention to what Paul wrote.

Right. Because apparently you can't speak for yourself even when asked for your personal opinion.

Just say no. Billions of people challenge God’s will every day. Do it your way. Blow God a raspberry. Tell him to stay out of your life - that’s the mechanism.

A mechanism that doesn't work if God's will is fulfilled regardless. Remind me again how I have freewill.

God’s will matters far more to me than whoever you decide to vote for.

God's will matters more than your freewill. Got it.

You’re coming from an agnostic perspective. You value your will above God’s will.

That's correct. I value my freewill because I'm not a slave, and I value it even more if I'm being judged on the decision I made during the journey if I'm being judged for it at the end of the journey.

 

[Matthias]

@Riven could you give me an example of an issue you would vote for and an example of an issue you would vote against?

 

[Riven]

@Riven could you give me an example of an issue you would vote for and an example of an issue you would vote against?

Sure, in the reverse. Mass immigration. I would vote against it. Universal healthcare for Americans I would vote for.

 

[Matthias]

Right. Because apparently you can't speak for yourself even when asked for your personal opinion.

My personal opinion is what Paul wrote. If it bothers you that I directed your attention to him then consider his words to be my words.

A mechanism that doesn't work if God's will is fulfilled regardless.

God’s will isn’t always fulfilled in people’s lives. For example, the Pharisees, Jesus said, rejected God’s will for their lives.

Remind me again how I have freewill.

You have limited free will. There are limits placed by God on what we can do. If your will is to live to the age of 150, you’re not going accomplish it.

God's will matters more than your freewill. Got it.

God’s will matters more than my limited free will.

That's correct. I value my freewill because I'm not a slave …

Scripture says that you are a slave.

… and I value it even more if I'm being judged on the decision I made during the journey if I'm being judged for it at the end of the journey.

You will be.

 

[Matthias]

Sure, in the reverse. Mass immigration. I would vote against it.

Thanks. I would ask what God thinks about the issue of mass immigration.

Universal healthcare for Americans I would vote for.

I would ask what God thinks about universal healthcare for Americans.

 

[Riven]

My personal opinion is what Paul wrote. If it bothers you that I directed your attention to him then consider his words to be my words.

That's Paul's opinion, not yours.

God’s will isn’t always fulfilled in people’s lives. For example, the Pharisees, Jesus said, rejected God’s will for their lives.

But did their rejection thwart God's will?

You have limited free will.

There's no such thing.

Scripture says that you are a slave.

Then scripture is wrong.

You will be.

It means very little without freewill.

 

[Matthias]

That's Paul's opinion, not yours.

It’s not Paul’s opinion. It is what God inspired Paul to write. If you want to call it an opinion, it should be called God’s opinion.

As for me, my opinion is that what Paul wrote is correct.

But did their rejection thwart God's will?

God’s will for them was thwarted by them.

There's no such thing.

I’ve heard you express that opinion several times now.

Then scripture is wrong.

Spoken like someone who values their own will above God’s will.

“Not my will but your will be done.” Spoken by someone who submits their own will to the will of another. (You may recall that this is what the Messiah said in prayer to his God and Father.)

It means very little without freewill.

God has given you free will to make the decision that you’ve made. It will be judged and you will receive either reward or punishment.