quietthinker
Well-Known Member
what do you think that's saying?......and just to play the devils advocate, were there Roman crosses floating around the cosmos before the world was created?
Ok, you exegete on that one.
Trump has abandoned America First
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Ok, you exegete on that one.
It was the plan of salvation which God had in mind even before the creation of the world.
No.
God knew about Roman crosses in his foreknowledge.
God's not saying anything. He didn't write the Bible; human beings wrote the Bible. However, I can see why political leaders would love this verse in particular.
There's nothing "behind the scenes" about it. You said God puts these despots in power.
Thanks. That’s definitely an agnostic perspective. (The Christian perspective, you may recall, is that all scripture is inspired by God.)
Political leaders do love the verse. It plays a large role in Christian history. To say that they abused it would be an understatement.
God uses them to accomplish his purpose.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I'm asking you what 'slain from the foundation of the World actually is reference to, ie what it means.
It is an assumption that it's God's foreknowledge and no doubt he knows but it's not talking about God's foreknowledge. It's talking about 'slain from the foundation of the World'
Put some teeth to it and not rattle it off as 'foreknowledge'
Foreknowledge can mean God knows every bug that hits your windscreen and every time you fart but that doesn't tell us anything about God himself.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
According to their thinking Hitler was put in power by God as well.
I answered your question. Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, Son of the living God, was slain by plan for the purpose of accomplishing mankind’s salvation.
God is love. His love of man existed even before the creation of man. That should bring John 3:16 to mind.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Since Romans 13:1 has been mentioned so often, what else does the apostle Paul say about our obedience to Governmental authority? Continuing from verse 1....
“Every person should place themselves under the authority of the government. There isn’t any authority unless it comes from God, and the authorities that are there have been put in place by God. So anyone who opposes the authority is standing against what God has established. People who take this kind of stand will get punished. The authorities don’t frighten people who are doing the right thing. Rather, they frighten people who are doing wrong. Would you rather not be afraid of authority? Do what’s right, and you will receive its approval. It is God’s servant given for your benefit. But if you do what’s wrong, be afraid because it doesn’t have weapons to enforce the law for nothing. It is God’s servant put in place to carry out his punishment on those who do what is wrong. That is why it is necessary to place yourself under the government’s authority, not only to avoid God’s punishment but also for the sake of your conscience. You should also pay taxes for the same reason, because the authorities are God’s assistants, concerned with this very thing. So pay everyone what you owe them. Pay the taxes you owe, pay the duties you are charged, give respect to those you should respect, and honor those you should honor.” (CEB)
How are we to understand Paul’s words?
These governments rule by God’s permission....not that he placed them in power individually.
The Greek word “tasʹso” used here is defined in various lexicons as “to bring about an order of things by arranging; to put in place; to draw up in order; to set in a certain order; to appoint.”
So we have to ask what is achieved by the existence of these worldly governments? What would our relative nations look like without them? Could we exist happily in chaos?.....a worse chaos than what we already deal with in this world?
Luke uses the same Greek word when rendering an army officer’s words: “I too am a man placed [form of tasʹso] under authority [form of e·xou·siʹa,the same word rendered “authority; authorities” at Rom 13:1-3], having soldiers under me.” This army officer had someone placed over him, and he had “soldiers under” him; so his “authority” was relative in relation to others.
I believe this is the understanding of what this governmental authority means.....it is relative, as we see in the first century.
When the authorities forbade the Christians from preaching their message, what was their response?
After successfully healing many people in various towns and villages.....
“The high priest, together with his allies, the Sadducees, was overcome with jealousy. They seized the apostles and made a public show of putting them in prison. An angel from the Lord opened the prison doors during the night and led them out. The angel told them, “Go, take your place in the temple, and tell the people everything about this new life.” Early in the morning, they went into the temple as they had been told and began to teach. When the high priest and his colleagues gathered, they convened the Jerusalem Council, that is, the full assembly of Israel’s elders. They sent word to the prison to have the apostles brought before them. However, the guards didn’t find them in the prison. They returned and reported, “We found the prison locked and well-secured, with guards standing at the doors, but when we opened the doors we found no one inside!”. . . . Just then, someone arrived and announced, “Look! The people you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!” Then the captain left with his guards and brought the apostles back. They didn’t use force because they were afraid the people would stone them. The apostles were brought before the council where the high priest confronted them: “In no uncertain terms, we demanded that you not teach in this name. And look at you! You have filled Jerusalem with your teaching. And you are determined to hold us responsible for this man’s death.” Peter and the apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than humans! (Acts 5:17-20 CEB)
Man’s laws do not override God’s laws, but in every other instance, we are to obey those whom God has placed as having authority over us. The authority is relative. No one can force a Christian to violate their own conscience. We have no authority over governments but our obedience is not absolute. The apostles, when arrested did not resist, but left themselves in God’s capable hands.
For example, when we are told not to “return evil for evil to anyone”, (Rom 12:17-21) would we ignore God’s law to carry out man’s law? Would we take up arms to kill our fellow man, and in some cases our fellow Christians ( such as in Ukraine) when Jesus told us to be “no part of the world”....what part of the world can we become a part of? What part of this world is not ruled by satan? (1 John 5:19)
Jesus said that he was “no part of this world” and asked us to imitate him......(John 18:36) he refrained from any involvement with politics, or the false religion practiced by the Pharisees. (Matt 15:7-9) He set his disciples apart from those things that satan influences. There can be no blood on our hands. (Isa 1:15; 1 John 4:20-21)
“Every person should place themselves under the authority of the government. There isn’t any authority unless it comes from God, and the authorities that are there have been put in place by God. So anyone who opposes the authority is standing against what God has established. People who take this kind of stand will get punished. The authorities don’t frighten people who are doing the right thing. Rather, they frighten people who are doing wrong. Would you rather not be afraid of authority? Do what’s right, and you will receive its approval. It is God’s servant given for your benefit. But if you do what’s wrong, be afraid because it doesn’t have weapons to enforce the law for nothing. It is God’s servant put in place to carry out his punishment on those who do what is wrong. That is why it is necessary to place yourself under the government’s authority, not only to avoid God’s punishment but also for the sake of your conscience. You should also pay taxes for the same reason, because the authorities are God’s assistants, concerned with this very thing. So pay everyone what you owe them. Pay the taxes you owe, pay the duties you are charged, give respect to those you should respect, and honor those you should honor.” (CEB)
How are we to understand Paul’s words?
These governments rule by God’s permission....not that he placed them in power individually.
The Greek word “tasʹso” used here is defined in various lexicons as “to bring about an order of things by arranging; to put in place; to draw up in order; to set in a certain order; to appoint.”
So we have to ask what is achieved by the existence of these worldly governments? What would our relative nations look like without them? Could we exist happily in chaos?.....a worse chaos than what we already deal with in this world?
Luke uses the same Greek word when rendering an army officer’s words: “I too am a man placed [form of tasʹso] under authority [form of e·xou·siʹa,the same word rendered “authority; authorities” at Rom 13:1-3], having soldiers under me.” This army officer had someone placed over him, and he had “soldiers under” him; so his “authority” was relative in relation to others.
I believe this is the understanding of what this governmental authority means.....it is relative, as we see in the first century.
When the authorities forbade the Christians from preaching their message, what was their response?
After successfully healing many people in various towns and villages.....
“The high priest, together with his allies, the Sadducees, was overcome with jealousy. They seized the apostles and made a public show of putting them in prison. An angel from the Lord opened the prison doors during the night and led them out. The angel told them, “Go, take your place in the temple, and tell the people everything about this new life.” Early in the morning, they went into the temple as they had been told and began to teach. When the high priest and his colleagues gathered, they convened the Jerusalem Council, that is, the full assembly of Israel’s elders. They sent word to the prison to have the apostles brought before them. However, the guards didn’t find them in the prison. They returned and reported, “We found the prison locked and well-secured, with guards standing at the doors, but when we opened the doors we found no one inside!”. . . . Just then, someone arrived and announced, “Look! The people you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!” Then the captain left with his guards and brought the apostles back. They didn’t use force because they were afraid the people would stone them. The apostles were brought before the council where the high priest confronted them: “In no uncertain terms, we demanded that you not teach in this name. And look at you! You have filled Jerusalem with your teaching. And you are determined to hold us responsible for this man’s death.” Peter and the apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than humans! (Acts 5:17-20 CEB)
Man’s laws do not override God’s laws, but in every other instance, we are to obey those whom God has placed as having authority over us. The authority is relative. No one can force a Christian to violate their own conscience. We have no authority over governments but our obedience is not absolute. The apostles, when arrested did not resist, but left themselves in God’s capable hands.
For example, when we are told not to “return evil for evil to anyone”, (Rom 12:17-21) would we ignore God’s law to carry out man’s law? Would we take up arms to kill our fellow man, and in some cases our fellow Christians ( such as in Ukraine) when Jesus told us to be “no part of the world”....what part of the world can we become a part of? What part of this world is not ruled by satan? (1 John 5:19)
Jesus said that he was “no part of this world” and asked us to imitate him......(John 18:36) he refrained from any involvement with politics, or the false religion practiced by the Pharisees. (Matt 15:7-9) He set his disciples apart from those things that satan influences. There can be no blood on our hands. (Isa 1:15; 1 John 4:20-21)
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I rent a room in a large home owned by a very kind lady who is completely convinced that people live in the attic, yes, you heard me right. According to her, no one else can see them because they are very fast and sneaky, they come down at night and scratch her cabinets, steal her remote, mess with her refrigerator etc.
Obviously, reasoning with her about the situation is impossible, depending on your world view she is either seriously demonically oppressed or schizophrenic. I pray for her of course, and do my best not to encourage her delusions.
Sometimes she gets very angry with me when I tell her that I'm sorry, but I have found no evidence to support her claims and I don't know what I can do to help her.
I would like to say that I've never met anyone quite like her. Unfortunately, I know far too many individuals who share many similar delusions, that would be those who put their trust in political parties and figures.
To date, this is the best scriptural explanation I can find to explain this current state of affairs.
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
2 Thes 2:7-12
Obviously, reasoning with her about the situation is impossible, depending on your world view she is either seriously demonically oppressed or schizophrenic. I pray for her of course, and do my best not to encourage her delusions.
Sometimes she gets very angry with me when I tell her that I'm sorry, but I have found no evidence to support her claims and I don't know what I can do to help her.
I would like to say that I've never met anyone quite like her. Unfortunately, I know far too many individuals who share many similar delusions, that would be those who put their trust in political parties and figures.
To date, this is the best scriptural explanation I can find to explain this current state of affairs.
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
2 Thes 2:7-12
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the forum. Your land lady sounds like early Alzheimer's with the anger stage coming on soon. Its best to humor her as its a downhill disease to death. The anger stage can be mild to severe, losing her temper to attacking you with a butcher knife. Hallucinations are in the beginning.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes....excellent passage......which shows us what to expect in this “time of the end”.....and which in plain English reads....
“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (ESV)
Sorry, not a fan of old English dinosaurs....
God in action. God appoints / establishes rulers and God replaces rulers @Riven.
God can and does use rulers - both good and bad - to accomplish his purpose.
Don’t buy that God is blindsided by wicked rulers or that Satan is the one who appoints / establishes rulers.
God can and does use rulers - both good and bad - to accomplish his purpose.
Don’t buy that God is blindsided by wicked rulers or that Satan is the one who appoints / establishes rulers.
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Inspired by and written by are two different things.
God interferes in our elections. If he ever comes back, I think he should be placed under arrest.
Paul was inspired by God to write Romans 13:1.
God interferes in our elections. If he ever comes back, I think he should be placed under arrest.
God is active in the lives of man. Man may not like it but it’s a grave mistake not to believe it.
”Hands off our elections, God” is man thumbing his nose at God.
What other aspects of mans life does man not want God to be active in?
(God is active in every aspect of my life. Thank God.)
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But anybody can be inspired by God to write something.
It's technically a violation of our freewill. That's my main contention.
We’re not talking about just anybody. We’re talking specifically about the Apostle Paul.
God has granted man an extraordinary amount of free will. Thankfully there is, and always has been, a limitation on free will. If there wasn’t, man would have destroyed himself a long time ago.
If God doesn’t intervene, man will destroy himself. God will intervene in the end to prevent that from happening.
ProverbsInPink
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In other words,pray for her still, and find another apartment Asap.
Obviously I will continue to pray for her. But she needs all the help I can give to her, she had been living in terror for four years when I moved in, her house and yard were a wreck, no utilities, no friends etc. Finding her and this place were already an answer to prayer, spoken on my behalf, unspoken perhaps on hers. I will stay and trust God and look into what I was informed of, it will be a great help to know more precisely what it is I'm dealing with.
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