Demographic collapse. Capitalism Dies of Childlessness

[GodsGrace]

I worked legally in Poland, Czechia, Hungary, and Germany. Every single time I heard the same crap from locals: “You migrants are the problem, you’re taking our jobs, ruining our countries.”

Let me remind you exactly how a Ukrainian like me gets hired in the EU:

- The employer must first post the vacancy for 21–60 days on the official state job boards (PES in Poland, MOL in Czechia, NFSZ in Hungary, BA/Make-it-in-Germany in Germany) and prove no EU citizen applied or was suitable.
- I show up with translated/notarized diplomas, often nostrified.
- I pass a 3–6 month probation period working like three locals combined.
- After that, the employer and I jointly apply for the actual work permit/residence card (Type A in Poland, Employee/Blue Card in Czechia, residence permit under the Skilled Immigration Act in Germany, etc.).
- The state personally approves that I am “necessary” and issues the visa for 1–4 years.
- From day one I pay full taxes and social contributions — usually at a higher effective rate than most locals because I don’t get your child allowances or family deductions.

So the boss who hired me, your own labor office, and your government all signed off: “We need this foreigner.”

And after all that you still scream at me that I “stole your job”?

How nice that you entered legally.
How nice that the EU allowed you to enter legally (whatever country you worked in).
How nice that you were needed because, apparently, the rest of Europe (outside of Ukraine) just does not have the necessary number of qualified workers to get a job done.

So WHO on this thread is screaming about YOU getting a job in Europe?

Certainly not me.

And the reason your head is in the sand is because you're a one track pony and are unable to see the complete picture...
or you don't want to.

You may not see the problem, because you may be part of it.

Why don’t you scream at your boss who made the decision?
Because you’re terrified of him. One wrong word and you’re out on the street tomorrow — no union appeal, no mandatory justification, nothing.

Wow.
OK.
This conversastion is over and done with.

Please remember to take your medicine every day...
and watch your head on the way out the door.

So you swallow the fear, bow your head to the real tyrant, and dump all your rage on the migrant.

Cowards.

Then you wonder why we don’t “integrate,” don’t love your culture, and some of us burn your flags.

If migrants ruin Europ so much — pack your bags and leave.
Your own birth rates (1.24 Italy, 1.35 Germany) already decided there’s no future for natives here anyway.
We’re just filling the space you refused to fill with your own children.

You native Europeans are no longer welcome here in Europe.
Pack up and leave while you still can.
Europe is no longer yours.

You're a muslim and a jihadist.
Go live in London where you're welcomed.
You are NOT welcomed here in Italy.

 

[GodsGrace]

“Capitalism focuses on the individual” is the most successful marketing lie of the 21st century.

Capitalism focuses on individual consumption, but only after it has destroyed the actual conditions for an individual life: family, housing, a future.

Today “individuality” means sitting alone in a rented studio scrolling TikTok because you can’t afford kids.
That’s the full extent of your precious “individual.”

Capitalism focuses on the individual the same way a shark focuses on a surfer: with great interest and an open mouth.
Everything else is marketing.

Capitalism is when eight men own as much as the bottom half of humanity.
It’s when the average 30-year-old Italian still lives with his parents because rent eats 60 % of his salary and buying a home is science fiction.
Pew Research Center (2020–2023): 52 % of Americans aged 18–29 live with their parents, the highest level since the Great Depression.

Your “individual success” is the choice between a 40-year mortgage and zero children.
That’s your “individual.”

Your “individual” is Jeff Bezos making in one day more than all his warehouse slaves will earn in a lifetime.
Your “individual” is BlackRock owning your house, your rent, and your pension at the same time.

Socialism is when society finally says: enough.
Housing is not a commodity, children are not a luxury, labor is not slavery.

And yes, socialism “has never been properly tried.”
Exactly the same way capitalism “was never properly tried” in 1929, 2008, or 2024 when you ran to bail out the banks with taxpayer money.

The difference: when capitalism collapses, you socialise the losses.
When socialism tries to rise, you strangle it with sanctions, coups, and bombs.

So spare me the “textbook” sermon.
The real textbook of 2025 is South Korea: 0.72 children per woman overall, 0.59 in Seoul.
That’s your capitalism in its purest form.
Beautiful, isn’t it?

No longer replying to you.

And if you do not want to intergrate...
then it is YOU who will eventually have to leave.

 

[GodsGrace]

By the way, this exact sentence of yours — “I won’t continue this ad nauseam, I don’t even do that with theology/apologetics” — is precisely why Christianity is collapsing, especially among Gen Z.

Your theology and apologetics have become completely detached from real life, real problems, and real challenges of the 21st century.

The Bible is the most radically socialist book ever written:
- Jubilee debt cancellation every 50 years,
- land returned to original families,
- prohibition of usury,
- “if you have two coats, give one to the man who has none,”
- “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom,”
- the first church in Acts holding everything in common so that “there was not a needy person among them.”

Yet when I read Christian forums or listen to most pastors today, I’m stunned at how you managed to turn the Bible into meaningless chatter about nothing. You use biblical words and biblical tone, but the content is pure white noise — zero substance, zero connection to the actual cries of this generation: unaffordable housing, debt slavery, loneliness, childlessness, burnout.

That is exactly why the overwhelming majority of Gen Z is not here.

I guess your socialist method will provide housing for all, free of charge....
will eliminate lonliness, and will cause all couple to have at least 3 or 4 children or more.

I don't converse with persons that cannot reason and only have hatred.

And you have Christian written under your avatar?
You sound like a hateful atheist.

You're most probably a fake and a troll.

 

[ScottA]

You didn't say a single word on the actual topic.
Everything you wrote is pure off-topic noise and personal attacks.

That is a lie. It's all here on record.

 

[ScottA]

Stop twisting my words.
I never called “the spiritual aspects of this topic” mystical gibberish.

What I called mystical gibberish is the nonsense you personally keep posting, stuff that has zero connection to the actual subject, zero connection to the Bible, zero connection to real Christianity, and zero connection to the real world.

It’s just your private fantasy dressed up in religious language.
That’s not “spiritual.”
That’s just made-up garbage.
Don’t pin your inventions on me.

It's all here for the record (--not "fantasy"). One only needs to read it to know what is actually written here.

 

[ScottA]

The Bible is the most radically socialist book ever written:
- Jubilee debt cancellation every 50 years,
- land returned to original families,
- prohibition of usury,
- “if you have two coats, give one to the man who has none,”
- “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom,”
- the first church in Acts holding everything in common so that “there was not a needy person among them.”

Yet when I read Christian forums or listen to most pastors today, I’m stunned at how you managed to turn the Bible into meaningless chatter about nothing. You use biblical words and biblical tone, but the content is pure white noise — zero substance, zero connection to the actual cries of this generation: unaffordable housing, debt slavery, loneliness, childlessness, burnout.

This (above) is likely the root cause of your erred perspective; and why it is actually you who is out of touch with reality--God's reality.

Yes, the Bible promises what could be considered socialist ideas. But the world we live in is not part of that promise--in fact, it's all wrong, as is the logic that we can just apply biblical principles and fix everything. That is not biblical truth at all! Your list above is all given as parables--yes, to be practiced--but they are not what fixes this world. They are for example only.

To the contrary--by order of God the world is passing away and is to be completely dissolved.

Meanwhile socialism is not God's way here in this world--profit is. How did you miss such an elementary biblical principle (rhetorical)?

You might need to start over--completely, with "the renewing of your mind."

 

[JohnDB]

1. First, I don’t need to discuss how bad the USSR was politically. I have a separate thread for that: “Why is the World Silent About the Largest Genocide of Christians in History?”
Second, what exactly do all the political events you listed have to do with demographics?
I mentioned the USSR only in the context of demographics.
You immediately jumped to “the USSR invaded Afghanistan.”
Well, the United States invaded Afghanistan right after the USSR did.
So what does that tell us in the context of this thread about demographics?
This thread is strictly about demographics, not Cold-War body counts.

2. What exactly do Gorbachev’s Afghan losses (or any other war you listed) have to do with the fact that the USSR in the 1970s–1980s maintained a TFR of 2.4–2.5 in a fully industrialized society?
The US fought the exact same war in Afghanistan (2001–2021).

Here, have the full list of US military operations since 1775: Timeline of United States military operations - Wikipedia

What does that tell us about demographics?

3. You wrote: “today ALL these nations have the same problem… shrinking population.”
Wrong.
Afghanistan, the country both the USSR and the US invaded, never had that problem.
- 2001 (year the US invasion started): TFR ≈ 7.3
- 2023 (two years after US withdrawal): TFR ≈ 4.4–4.7 (UN/World Bank)
Twenty years of American bombs, drones, and night raids and It’s still double replacement.

4. The pattern is crystal clear:
- Industrialized, urbanized, consumer-capitalist societies → fertility collapses to 0.7–1.6 regardless of ideology (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Italy, Spain like clockwork).
- Pre-industrial, rural, often war-torn societies → fertility stays high (Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Niger).
- The only industrialized exceptions that ever pushed TFR back above 2.1 for any sustained period used massive, deliberate, anti-usury, pro-family state intervention (Gaddafi’s Libya, 1930s Germany, 1970s–80s USSR).

The fertility cliff is triggered by one thing and one thing only: the moment a society fully embraces the full package of industrial capitalism—housing as an investment, women in the workforce until 35+, education as a 20-year debt sentence, and children treated as a luxury consumption good.

So spare us the geopolitical whataboutism.
The numbers don’t care who invaded whom.
They only care whether a 28-year-old couple can afford to have the third child without going bankrupt.
Right now, under the current economic religion, the answer is almost universally “no.”

I mentioned war for the USSR because they have a unique style of waging it that involves "meat waves".....essentially men are moved forward on battle lines to become Cannon Fodder.

This has zero effect on births per woman but it DOES seriously affect that all the births 20 years previously have ended prematurely and no longer add to the population.

That's why....war shrinks populations in TWO ways.
One is that live births slow down. People wait for the war to end to have children.

Second way is that men die in war.

 

[JohnDB]

This (above) is likely the root cause of your erred perspective; and why it is actually you who is out of touch with reality--God's reality.

Yes, the Bible promises what could be considered socialist ideas. But the world we live in is not part of that promise--in fact, it's all wrong, as is the logic that we can just apply biblical principles and fix everything. That is not biblical truth at all! Your list above is all given as parables--yes, to be practiced--but they are not what fixes this world. They are for example only.

To the contrary--by order of God the world is passing away and is to be completely dissolved.

Meanwhile socialism is not God's way here in this world--profit is. How did you miss such an elementary biblical principle (rhetorical)?

You might need to start over--completely, with "the renewing of your mind."

The USA started out communist....
People love to forget that. The early Jamestown record of the first successful settlement is kinda bleak and unsettling.

They were scared of drinking water (Europe had no safe drinking water) ....and so they did successfully get the brewery set up and running. However the brewery ran short on grain regularly due to poor crops in the communal fields. (All the communal fields failed miserably with poor harvests).
The women discovered caches of dried peas that the Indigenous people had made and raided them to keep from starving.

Finally in the third year with barely 20% of the original population left alive....
They realized that communist lifestyles were not working whatsoever.
They appointed people to various plots of land to live or die by what they farmed. This added to the knowledge that they needed to plant seeds with small fish caught in nets....

They had a huge surplus harvest with private ownership of land. More than enough with multiples better harvests than communist living ever had produced.
So they invited the Indigenous people over for a three day feast. These Pilgrims (AKA Missionaries) went on hunting parties with the indians (sharing the fresh livers) and shot turkeys and venison. Today we are celebrating this three day feast next week on Thursday and call it Thanksgiving.

However, the failures of communism were never remembered and groups of people tried to set up utopian communities in various places that are kinda well known today as cesspool large cities. Including such places as Virginia, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, New Jersey, and of course New York all each according to their particular Denominational beliefs with goals to prove their denominational beliefs were better than the other denominations.

EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM FAILED SPECTACULARLY and had to allow the entire settlement to include "Deists" (known better today as non-denominationalists but definitely God fearing Christians) into their communities. Plus the whole communal farm life was also a resounding failure just the same as Jamestown was with exact same results in ALL of these original Utopian societies. Philadelphia is the Latin term for "Brotherly love" and its city started out as a Utopian society of Quakers. Today it's an armpit city where it's not really safe to go out at night. Richmond Virginia was also known for the Baptists as a Utopian Society. (Same issues there)
Many more Utopian, Communist Christian communities were started and ALL failed miserably.

Is anyone today interested in teaching this repeated failed lifestyle ?
Nope.
But people are very interested in trying it again. As if it's going to work this time.

 

[JohnDB]

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

1. First, I don’t need to discuss how bad the USSR was politically. I have a separate thread for that: “Why is the World Silent About the Largest Genocide of Christians in History?”
Second, what exactly do all the political events you listed have to do with demographics?
I mentioned the USSR only in the context of demographics.
You immediately jumped to “the USSR invaded Afghanistan.”
Well, the United States invaded Afghanistan right after the USSR did.
So what does that tell us in the context of this thread about demographics?
This thread is strictly about demographics, not Cold-War body counts.

2. What exactly do Gorbachev’s Afghan losses (or any other war you listed) have to do with the fact that the USSR in the 1970s–1980s maintained a TFR of 2.4–2.5 in a fully industrialized society?
The US fought the exact same war in Afghanistan (2001–2021).

Here, have the full list of US military operations since 1775: Timeline of United States military operations - Wikipedia

What does that tell us about demographics?

3. You wrote: “today ALL these nations have the same problem… shrinking population.”
Wrong.
Afghanistan, the country both the USSR and the US invaded, never had that problem.
- 2001 (year the US invasion started): TFR ≈ 7.3
- 2023 (two years after US withdrawal): TFR ≈ 4.4–4.7 (UN/World Bank)
Twenty years of American bombs, drones, and night raids and It’s still double replacement.

4. The pattern is crystal clear:
- Industrialized, urbanized, consumer-capitalist societies → fertility collapses to 0.7–1.6 regardless of ideology (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Italy, Spain like clockwork).
- Pre-industrial, rural, often war-torn societies → fertility stays high (Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Niger).
- The only industrialized exceptions that ever pushed TFR back above 2.1 for any sustained period used massive, deliberate, anti-usury, pro-family state intervention (Gaddafi’s Libya, 1930s Germany, 1970s–80s USSR).

The fertility cliff is triggered by one thing and one thing only: the moment a society fully embraces the full package of industrial capitalism—housing as an investment, women in the workforce until 35+, education as a 20-year debt sentence, and children treated as a luxury consumption good.

So spare us the geopolitical whataboutism.
The numbers don’t care who invaded whom.
They only care whether a 28-year-old couple can afford to have the third child without going bankrupt.
Right now, under the current economic religion, the answer is almost universally “no.”

Do the Socialist Nations want Population growth ? No ! they clearly want to reduce the world population in fact ! and the Fat cats are in bed with them ! to them ends and it has been said 80% of the worlds Population has to go ! or else mother earth can not sustaine such ! and we all die ?
Such Satanist have been clearly full on in the working of hell bent on creating Gays etc Abortion on demand etc, so as to help reduce such in their Plans. setting women up as well, they reject women in fact ! for they give no worthy regards to what such is in fact ! how clearly Satanic ! so some man can play the woman ? Haha ! what total jerks ! but they get away with such outright Lies in fact ! clearly do to the Media being a down right Whore !

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

You’re absolutely right on one thing: blaming the migrants themselves for the demographic hole is stupid.
I’ve said it a hundred times in this thread: migrants are the symptom, not the disease.
“We’re just filling the space you refused to fill with your own children.”
So on that we agree 100 %.

Yet in the very next breath you describe exactly the same dynamic that happens in Europe: locals treat newcomers like dirt, call them “wogs,” act as if they’re the problem, while the real decision-makers—government migration policy and the bosses who actively recruit foreigners—get zero heat.

The anger is always aimed downward at the guy with the accent, never upward at the capitalist who signed the contract or the politician who opened the gate.
Same circus, different continent.

Now, on “socialism vs private property.”

Go watch the 15-minute Scott Galloway TED talk “How the US Is Destroying Young People’s Future.”

The chart is brutal: for Gen Z and Millennials, the probability of ever owning a home is lower than it was for their parents at the same age—in the supposedly most capitalist country on Earth.

So spare me the fairy tale that capitalism = sacred private property for everyone.
Yes, the legal right exists on paper.
But if only the top 1–5 % can ever exercise that right, and the other 95–99 % are priced out for life, then “private property” becomes exactly what it was in the late USSR: a theoretical right that 99 % of the population will never enjoy.

A right you cannot use is not a right.
It’s a marketing slogan.

A Wog means that such is a foreign body in fact ! and nothing more ! as in it's not a issue of anything but the fact their of.

My mum is a Wog ! big deal, it's a fact get over it.

Bring in the wrong Wogs is the issue tho and too many of such is totaly retarded ! that only a total moron would force on a Nation, but typical intent of Socialist wanting to cause only troubles in fact ! because such a Government is only trying to sharft it's own People in fact !


I remember the biggest Boom in Australias history where I had no work, because Asians came and undermined my Buisness ! not that it was the Asians who were the issue but that of greed driven Aussies who only wanted to use the Asians for their own greed driven spastic ends in fact !
So the Aussie Builders demanded Asians come to help them and the Builders made huge money !
So I am talking to a Builder mate and he says, why don't you go and buy some houses ? like him 3 then 6 and working to 12 so as to rent ? I turnaround and say that I did not make anything out of the Boom at all ! He demands that's BS ! angery as hell at me for saying so ! I was still doing things for free all the way through the boom. my brothers and Dad as well in the same trade. so baby bro got out and went work for the Government and he said that it was so easy and that he did not have to work like a Slave anymore He was laughing at us for being just like niggro Slaves in the System ! I knew we were just that for years but not big bro or dad, they thought that they were big men ! movers that the world revolves around !
I remember back in 1981 in the Pub I said to my dad, see that bum who works on the Councel as a idiot nobody fool, he earns more money than you do ! or he is better off that you are in reality ! but he does not know it ? and he will be far better off when he retires that you ever will be. As I was totaly correct ! Them people did not have to work hard and had everything to back them up ! they got payed regardless ! no money problems at all, the life of Riley !
But my dad worked 7 days a week and like a man possessed flat out going for it, holidays hell no ! but he got kicked in the Guts due to Socialist Governments boom bust system that bankrupts such intentionaly ! and the top of Town percentage of right wing Devils they were and are in on it as well.

I remember the days of young people building a House, that they did not buy like young do nowadays at all, for they built a garage to live in and then a small house 1 bath and in time added to that more rooms, no A/C, no 2 cars ! if that ! drove some old bomb that would never pass too being on the road nowadays. next door had 7 kids, the next young dude had 3 kids and said he had to move out due to being too cramped for them.
Nowadays young demand everything 2 bathrooms A/C etc etc ! The Young start out working for good money nowadays, not so in times past that's for sure. when you truly work out the values. They are doing well. but to get into the housing market that has been created by the Socialist and greed Co dogs is the issue !

At the end of the day Socialism is a Cancer !

But what is the answer, well education is ! and if one abided in Christ Jesus all will become free of Tyrants etc.
Socialism is a mans works in fact ! because such is delusional and Idolised by fools in fact.

The young bloke who bought nextdoor he has done real well for himself, he came from Ireland ! he has 2 house 3 kids and rents nextdoor out now for 5 years.
I was talking to him of late and said how well he has done for himself, he totaly agreed and said if he had turned up now, he would of never got into the market ! I think he is only 30yo.

You come across hatefull people all the time in the Building game, I remember when I was 7yo working for my dad and them old buggers were not nice at all to anyone especially to young people ! it was the norm that one had to put up with, but for sure such old workers were in pain. back in the 70's etc medication was not as it is now. most were all dead before 65yo or at 66yo that I knew back them days.
I was called Boy till I was say 40yo. Haha.

I can understand why people have a hatred of Capitialism and I would be a Socialist for sure if I did not know any better ! for It's truly like a Vampier that bleeds everyone dry. but their are such Vampires in the Capitalist system as well for sure. but Capitalism is not the issue, it's the Vampires !

 

[Chrysostomos]

Migrants are the CAUSE for the upheavel in life in, at least, the countries I'm familiar with.

Which migrants exactly?
And which “upheaval” precisely?
Blanket-blaming every single migrant for everything that feels wrong is the laziest caricature possible.
Tell me, as a legal, tax-paying migrant who went through all your labor-market tests, probation periods, and residence-permit hoops: exactly how am I personally causing “upheaval” in your life in the EU?

Because with the same logic I could declare that all native Europeans are Nazis, fascists, and racists, and that you, the natives, are the real cause of all the upheaval.

Are you saying that migrants come from CAPITALIST countries from which they are trying desperately to escape
and so end up in Europe?

You would be making a conflicting statement.
Please clarify.

No contradiction at all.

People from Africa, the Middle East, and yes, from Ukraine are fleeing war first and foremost.

- Iraq: destroyed by the West.
- Afghanistan: 20 years of Western occupation.
- Libya: NATO bombed Gaddafi’s functioning state into a failed-state hellscape.
- Syria: proxy war fueled by Western money and weapons.
- Ukraine: ongoing war that escalated after 2014, with the West openly arming one side to the teeth.

They are not voting with their feet for capitalism.
They are running from the ruins and bombs that Western foreign policy (and its capitalist-military complex) helped create or sustain.

They end up in Europe because it’s the closest safe place, not because Europe is some pure free-market paradise.

So no, I’m not contradicting myself.
The same capitalist powers that wrecked their countries now lecture them about “integrating” when they arrive as refugees.
That’s not hypocrisy on my part.
That’s just the historical record.

But what IS the disease?
Fertility is not collapsing due to a capitlist agenda...
Fertility is collapsing due to a cultural agenda which has changed drastically in the past two decades/or generations.

I’ve posted a whole list of reasons why fertility collapses in industrialized capitalist countries.

Economics is only one pillar of that list, but it is a **massive** pillar.
To pretend otherwise is either ignorance or deliberate gaslighting.

I get the feeling you haven’t actually read a single one of my posts in this thread that wasn’t directly addressed to you.
Is that the case?

Because if you had, you’d know I never reduced the crisis to “just money.”
But erasing the economic factor entirely, as you just did, is simply denying reality.
Housing, childcare, healthcare, and education costs are objective, measurable, and they are crushing young families everywhere capitalism has been allowed to run unchecked.

So yes, culture plays a huge role.
But culture doesn’t float in a vacuum; it is shaped by the material conditions capitalism created.
When a society turns every basic need into a profit center, the cultural message becomes crystal clear: children are the most expensive luxury good on the market.

Again,,,fertility rates are down in all areas of the globe...or at least most areas of the globe.

It is not due to capitalism,,,
it's due to the fact that the young have no desire to marry and establish a family.
This is a cultural/societal change and has nothing to do with economics.

People always got married...even the poor.
Today we have a higher standard of living than at any time, as is true for 20 to 30 years ago...
and yes, in this time period LESS persons wish to get married and those that do have very little desire to have less than one child.

I attribute this to societal/cultural changes
NOT economic changes.

I have already written this in the thread, several times, in detail.

We moved from a peasant way of life (where children = wealth and workforce, housing = inheritance or self-built, marriage = early and universal) to a fully industrial way of life (where children = pure cost, housing = speculative asset, marriage = late or never).

Human biology and psychology did not change one bit in those 150 years.
The economic and social rules changed 180 degrees.

In a peasant society “family” was the basic production unit.
In an industrial capitalist society “family” has been deliberately dismantled and replaced by the individual wage-slave + corporate HR department.
Today the word “family” is just a nostalgic label we still use while the actual institution is gone.

The current system is explicitly designed so that only the top 1–5 % can comfortably reproduce and pass on wealth.
Everyone else is treated as disposable resource for that 1 %.

I laid all of this out, with historical examples, numbers, and mechanisms.
You keep answering as if none of it was ever said.

That’s not discussion.
That’s gaslighting.

So please, go back and actually read what I wrote about the transition from peasant to industrial society before repeating the same “it’s just culture” mantra again.

 

[Chrysostomos]

How nice that you entered legally.
How nice that the EU allowed you to enter legally (whatever country you worked in).
How nice that you were needed because, apparently, the rest of Europe (outside of Ukraine) just does not have the necessary number of qualified workers to get a job done.

So WHO on this thread is screaming about YOU getting a job in Europe?

Certainly not me.

And the reason your head is in the sand is because you're a one track pony and are unable to see the complete picture...
or you don't want to.

You may not see the problem, because you may be part of it.

You still refuse to see it.

Legal migrants like me (hired because your own employers begged for us and your own governments stamped the permits) are not the problem.
We are the emergency patch you taped over the real problem: your own demographic collapse.

I am not “part of the problem.”
I am the unpaid volunteer who keeps your hospitals running, your pensions funded, and your state afloat with taxes I pay while never drawing a single euro of the benefits I finance.

I pay for your grandparents’ pensions.
I pay for your schools, your healthcare, your child benefits (benefits I will never claim).

That is my gift to you.

And your response?
You spit in my face, scream that I’m the problem, that I “stole” a job that no local wanted or was qualified for.

You never scream at the capitalist boss who posted the vacancy for 60 days and found zero natives.
You never scream at the government that approved my permit because your own birth rate has been below replacement for two generations.

You just scream at me.

Shame on you.
Absolute shame.

 

[JohnDB]

You still refuse to see it.

Legal migrants like me (hired because your own employers begged for us and your own governments stamped the permits) are not the problem.
We are the emergency patch you taped over the real problem: your own demographic collapse.

I am not “part of the problem.”
I am the unpaid volunteer who keeps your hospitals running, your pensions funded, and your state afloat with taxes I pay while never drawing a single euro of the benefits I finance.

I pay for your grandparents’ pensions.
I pay for your schools, your healthcare, your child benefits (benefits I will never claim).

That is my gift to you.

And your response?
You spit in my face, scream that I’m the problem, that I “stole” a job that no local wanted or was qualified for.

You never scream at the capitalist boss who posted the vacancy for 60 days and found zero natives.
You never scream at the government that approved my permit because your own birth rate has been below replacement for two generations.

You just scream at me.

Shame on you.
Absolute shame.

Ok, you are not listening to what people are saying.

The job you were begged to fill went unfilled for over 60 days. Why did you fill this job for the extremely low wages?

Why has the whole world chased after industrialization and modernization?

If you were to get married and had children, would you send them to school? WHY?
Isn't the reasons you did these things the same as the original sin of "wanting/expecting more"?

This may not be the world you want but it's the world you have to live in.

You can whine like a borrowed mule or you can choose to make the best of the situation you find yourself in.

 

[Chrysostomos]

Wow.
OK.
This conversastion is over and done with.

Please remember to take your medicine every day...
and watch your head on the way out the door.

Translation:
“I have no answer, so I’ll just declare victory and tell you to take your meds.”

Classic.

Whenever the facts get too uncomfortable, the conversation suddenly becomes “over” and the other person is crazy.

I’ve seen that move a thousand times.
It’s the sound of someone slamming the door because the mirror got too clear.

When the next hospital shift is covered by a Ukrainian nurse,
when the next construction crane is run by a Ukrainian crew,
when the next truck delivering your supermarket food is driven by a Ukrainian driver...
...when the next pension check lands in your account thanks to taxes paid by people with “foreign” names,
remember who actually kept the lights on while you were busy blaming the thermometer instead of the fever.
By the way:
the entire elderly-care industry in Western Europe (Germany, Italy, Austria, etc.) now runs almost entirely on Ukrainian women.
Why? Because they come with real medical training: at minimum registered nurses, often full doctors, who end up wiping asses in nursing homes for €12–15 an hour because your system priced your own daughters out of having families in the first place.
And you still have the nerve to call them the problem?
Yeah, conversation over.
Reality will keep talking even after you stop listening.

You're a muslim and a jihadist.
Go live in London where you're welcomed.
You are NOT welcomed here in Italy.

You’re wrong.

In Ukraine there are literally dozens of recruitment agencies whose entire business is to convince Ukrainians (by every possible means) to come work in the EU, including Italy.
My own sister, a fully qualified nurse, a few years ago had to choose between Italy (where we have relatives) and Germany (where they offered higher pay and better conditions).
She chose Germany.

Today any certified Ukrainian nurse isn’t just “welcomed” in Italy; they’re practically begged to come.
Nursing homes, hospitals, and agencies are on their knees offering contracts, housing, and bonuses because the local workforce simply doesn’t exist in sufficient numbers anymore.

So when you say “migrants are the problem and nobody wants them here,” you have no idea what you’re talking about.

The real ostrich with its head in the sand is the one pretending Italy isn’t actively hunting for people like us to keep the country running.

 

[Chrysostomos]

No longer replying to you.

And if you do not want to intergrate...
then it is YOU who will eventually have to leave.

This is turning into a playground tantrum, not a discussion among adults.

- @shepherdsword bragged that a little group here decided to collectively ignore everything I write.
- @Truly put me on ignore after few messages.
- @HealthyShape threatened me with “either everyone ignores you until you’re talking to yourself, or you get banned.”
- And now you dramatically announce you’re “no longer replying.”

Grown adults proudly coordinating who gets the silent treatment, stomping their feet, covering their ears the moment the facts get uncomfortable.

That’s not mature debate.
That’s the behaviour of sulky children who just discovered the mute button.

If your position was strong, you wouldn’t need these infantile tactics.
You’d just answer.

But you can’t, so the sandbox toys get thrown instead.

Fine. Keep sulking.
The real world doesn’t have an ignore button.
Your fertility rate is still 1.24

 

[Chrysostomos]

I guess your socialist method will provide housing for all, free of charge....
will eliminate lonliness, and will cause all couple to have at least 3 or 4 children or more.

I don't converse with persons that cannot reason and only have hatred.

And you have Christian written under your avatar?
You sound like a hateful atheist.

You're most probably a fake and a troll.

Let’s recap what you have called me in this single thread:

- Muslim
- Jihadist
- Hateful atheist
- Fake
- Troll
- “Part of the problem”
- General cause of all Europe’s upheavals

You’ve smeared every migrant on the continent as “the problem,” including the Ukrainian nurses keeping your elderly alive as “the problem.”

And now you accuse me of sounding like a “hateful atheist”?

Look in the mirror.
The log in your own eye is the size of a telephone pole.

 

[Chrysostomos]

That is a lie. It's all here on record.

You didn’t say a single word on the actual topic.
Everything you wrote is pure off-topic noise and personal attacks.
And yes, that is the truth. It’s all here on record.

But I’ll give you one chance to prove me wrong and finally talk about the subject instead of about me.

Answer, honestly:

- Are you married?
- Has your wife ever given birth?
- How much did the entire process cost you out-of-pocket (prenatal visits, ultrasounds, blood tests, delivery, hospital stay)?
- Does the United States have paid maternity leave? If yes, how many paid years did your wife get while keeping 100 % of her salary and her job guaranteed?
- How much is daycare per month where you live, and how long is the waiting list?
- How much does it cost to put a child in swimming lessons, dance, chess club, or any normal after-school activity?
- How much is a one-month summer camp?

Give me the real numbers from your own life.
No theories, no slogans.

Then we’ll see who’s actually living in reality and who’s hiding behind “bUt SoCiAliSm!!” when asked to face the price tag of raising the next generation under the system you keep defending.

 

[Chrysostomos]

It's all here for the record (--not "fantasy"). One only needs to read it to know what is actually written here.

I did read it.
That’s exactly how I know it’s 100 % fantasy and 0 % on-topic.

 

[Lizbeth]

The primary duty of any state should be to ensure the survival and prosperity of its own people. Yet in today’s developed Western countries, that goal has been pushed far into the background.

The native population is shrinking rapidly: birth rates are collapsing, death rates are rising, and the demographic crisis is becoming impossible to ignore.

The capitalists in charge offer a “simple” fix: just import migrants. But that’s nothing more than a temporary patch that doesn’t solve the root problem. Migrants who enter the same system will sooner or later face the exact same pressures. A system that is incompatible with life itself is doomed to fail.

So what are the real causes of this demographic extinction, and why does almost nobody talk about them?

Causes of the die-off:​

1. Education and career instead of family
Modern women are increasingly pushed toward higher education and careers rather than early motherhood. This isn’t their “fault”; it’s the result of a system that rewards professional achievement while punishing childbearing. Maternity leave and sick days for kids are treated by employers as a burden. In the capitalist race for productivity, motherhood becomes a liability instead of a value.

2. Urbanization: cities are hostile to life
Modern cities are not places designed for reproduction. Sky-high living costs, artificially created housing shortages, constant stress, and overload make starting a family almost impossible. Unlike a peasant who can rely on his garden or livestock, an urban dweller lives under the permanent threat of financial ruin. Losing a job in the city is a catastrophe; a cow or a field will never “fire” its owner. Urbanization, once hailed as progress, has turned into a graveyard.

3. Usury and economic pressure
Banks and the credit system make everything worse. Predatory interest rates, mortgages, and consumer debt create conditions where having many children becomes an unaffordable luxury. Families crushed by debt can’t even afford the bare minimum for a normal family life, so many simply give up on having kids altogether. An economic system built on exploitation suffocates both the desire and the ability to form families.

4. Capitalism: humans as disposable cogs
Modern capitalism has turned people into consumables. Work yourself to the bone until you break; that’s the motto. Even highly qualified professionals face the same burnout, stress, and depression as low-skilled workers. Add the uncertainty created by artificial intelligence that threatens to make millions obsolete, and the desire to start a family evaporates. Why bring children into a world that feels so precarious?

Why Is Politics Silent?​

Amazingly, none of these issues are anywhere near the center of the political agenda.

The right is obsessed with building border walls and anti-migrant rhetoric while completely ignoring the systemic causes of the demographic collapse.

The left is busy fighting for LGBTQ+ rights, abortion access, and distant conflicts like Palestine.

Both sides are playing their own ideological games that have zero connection to the real problems of the vast majority of people.

Politics, in essence, is dead. It offers no solutions, reflects no one’s actual hopes, and gives no reason for optimism.

What’s the point of even showing up to vote when not a single party is talking about what actually matters? Why bother casting a ballot when political discourse is just empty noise completely detached from reality?

I don't know how the whole conversation is going on this thread but just to say in general.....this world is lost and sinful and lies under God's wrath...we should not be surprised at this since it is all over God's word...He has not kept it a secret. And He is the one who raises and lowers kings and kingdoms and is presiding over it all, whether to bless or to judge or anything in between. When ancient Israel (who is our ensample) took to obeying the Lord, she was blessed and prospered, but this caused her to soon forgot God, and so the Lord had to discipline and judge her. Same thing is happening in Christendom. But to the faithful remnant of any nation He will show Himself faithful. Jesus said not to worry about the morrow.........God feeds the sparrows how much more will He feed and take care of His own? Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from the Father and we are worth more than many sparrows.

Our job is not to change and dominate this world with laws and the enforcing of them, that is what nominal Christianity tries to do.......but the only mandate Jesus gave to HIS church is to rescue souls out of the world. before judgment/wrath falls...like we who believe are in the world but no longer OF it......and salvation has always been about a remnant. The story of Noah is an example.