A future third temple requires a new prophet

[Douggg]

So what? The point we're making is that it can't be "the temple of God" because the temple of God is one that God dwells in. Yet, for some reason, you are trying to relate some temple that would not be the temple of God to verses that refer to the temple of God. That makes no sense.

What will the intent of the Jews who build the temple that the Antichrist will desolate ? Who will the Jews intend to worship in that temple ?

 

[ewq1938]

Yes it was the Romans punishing the Jews for Gods purpose, but there was great tribulation on the saints in the first century that is still happening today world wide

Not the GT Christ spoke about. That is yet to come. The real Gt is short, not thousands of years as you teach.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What will the intent of the Jews who build the temple that the Antichrist will desolate ? Who will the Jews intend to worship in that temple ?

You just don't get it, Douggg. None of that matters. The temple of God, whether physical or spiritual, has always been a temple that God dwells in. He would not dwell in this imaginary temple that you're talking about, so your questions are pointless.

 

[Marty fox]

Not the GT Christ spoke about. That is yet to come. The real Gt is short, not thousands of years as you teach.

Then how come Jesus used the word “you” in Matthew 24 when He was talking to the disciples?

Matthew 24
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

This actually also happened to the disciples so let’s let the scriptures interpret the scriptures

 

[Davidpt]

So what? The point we're making is that it can't be "the temple of God" because the temple of God is one that God dwells in. Yet, for some reason, you are trying to relate some temple that would not be the temple of God to verses that refer to the temple of God. That makes no sense.


So what? It won't be the temple of God, so it can't relate to 2 Thessalonians 2:4 which specifically refers to the temple of God rather than some temple that is not the temple of God.


We don't deny that. Address our points instead of going on tangents. Address the fact that you are trying to make verses about the temple of God be about some temple that is not the temple of God instead.

I don't disagree with your arguments. So let me ask this. In 70 AD when the 2nd temple was destroyed, was it still the temple of God? Because if it wasn't, how can you reasonably argue that an AOD can't take place in future literal temple since it is not the temple of God, but in 70 AD a literal temple that was also not the temple of God, and AOD can place in it and then did?

You can't use the argument, that when Jesus said that, the 2nd temple was still the temple of God. What He said involved prophecy. Prophecy predicts events in the future. In the future, meaning future to when Jesus spoke those words, assuming Matthew 24:15 is involving 70 AD, was the 2nd temple still the holy place, thus still the temple of God? Not per the perspective of unbelieving Jews at the time, but per the perspective of God? Per the perspective of NT authors, such as Paul, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, for instance.


Therefore, you come across as hypocritical here when you are arguing that a literal temple in the future can't be the temple of God but a literal temple in 70 AD can be. Except neither view remotely agrees with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that verse is connected with.

 

[Marty fox]

I don't disagree with your arguments. So let me ask this. In 70 AD when the 2nd temple was destroyed, was it still the temple of God? Because if it wasn't, how can you reasonably argue that an AOD can't take place in future literal temple since it is not the temple of God, but in 70 AD a literal temple that was also not the temple of God, and AOD can place in it and then did?

You can't use the argument, that when Jesus said that, the 2nd temple was still the temple of God. What He said involved prophecy. Prophecy predicts events in the future. In the future, meaning future to when Jesus spoke those words, assuming Matthew 24:15 is involving 70 AD, was the 2nd temple still the holy place, thus still the temple of God? Not per the perspective of unbelieving Jews at the time, but per the perspective of God? Per the perpestive of NT authors, such as Paul, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, for instance.


Therefore, you come across as hypocritical here when you are arguing that a literal temple in the future can't be the temple of God but a literal temple in 70 AD can be. Except neither view remotely agrees with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that verse is connected with.

Jesus tells us exactly what the AOD was

Matthew 24
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetopgo down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Luke 20
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[Davy]

There won't be a future temple-built God didn't actually command anyone to build one

That's another point.

So you're not understanding that it is GOD Himself Who has ORDAINED these events at the END of this world?

Did you not ever read Joel 2 where God gave the original idea about the locust army? and that when all is finished and He saves His people, that He will restore to them all that the locusts ate up, and He calls the locusts "My great army which I sent among you." (Joel 2:25)

Rev 17:17
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
KJV

2 Thess 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
KJV

It is our Heavenly Father Himself Who is sending the final Antichrist to deceive those who do not listen to Him in His Word by The Holy Spirit. Those who will fall away will do so of their own doing. And what is real sad, is that God already told us all what is going to happen at the end, yet those who will fall away won't listen to Him in His Word.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The great tribulation has been happing since the days of the book of Acts and is still happening today.

No, tribulation has been in the world sin Adam committed high treason against God.

But the "Great Tribulation" has not started yet.

God used Rome to destroy the temple for His purpose and He has allowed the Dome Of The Rock to seated on the same location for a reason. The reason is that the temple sin sacrifices were a rejection of Jesus and what He did, they became blasphemous.

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

45 When Jesus entered the temple courts, he began to drive out those who were selling. 46 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be a house of prayer’[a]; but you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’[b]”​

Matthew 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

If you see above Jesus went from "My house" to "your house". The temple is no more Gods house and it wasn't when Paul said the words "the temple of God".

None the less they are getting geared up to build another temple and it does not have to be where the demonic temple of islam is at on the dome of the rock.

Hide and watch, the anti-christ is going to make covenant with Israel and sit in a temple the Jews build and he will proclaim himself to be god and this makes the start of the 7 year tribulation period

 

[Davidpt]

Jesus tells us exactly what the AOD was

Matthew 24
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetopgo down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Luke 20
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Nowhere in the Luke 21 account does it ever mention an AOD taking place in the temple of God. An AOD involving a temple that is no longer the temple of God in 70 AD makes sense exactly how? The A stands for abomination. You of course already know that. what then was the abomination that led to the desolation in 70 AD?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Look what these verses say---When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation--Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. IOW, until one sees the AOD, in the meantime they are not doing this--let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. Therefore, one can't argue, for example, that the abomination was the continual animal sacrificing still taking place after Christ died and rose. Clearly, one could see for 40 years straight that animal sacrificing continued, yet not one person was doing this for 40 years---When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation--Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. I'm not saying that that might be your view. I'm saying there are some that hold that view. Therefore, I was merely providing an example since it appears to be a multiple choice question in regards to what the AOD was, assuming it was fulfilled involving 70 AD.

Therefore, we can check animal sacrificing continued for 40 years after Christ died and rose, off the list, since this couldn't remotely explain the abomination meant.

Not to mention. As if it makes sense, that those who insist the AOD was fulfilled 2000 years ago involving 70 AD, yet not all of these that insist this can even agree with each other as to what the AOD was. If that's not a red flag I don't know what is? After all, if the AOD was indeed fulfilled involving 70 AD, it should no longer be a multiple choice question as to what it was. Everyone would be in agreement about what it was.

 

[Davy]

Jesus tells us exactly what the AOD was

Matthew 24
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetopgo down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Luke 20
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Luke 21 version doesn't mention the "abomination of desolation" idol. Only the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions of Christ's Olivet discourse do.

This is a Bible interpretation error I see brethren make all the time. They see a slightly 'similar' phrase in one Book/Chapter, and treat it as the same exact repeat in another Book/Chapter. The phrase "without form, and void" of Genesis 1:2 is a prime example of this, because the same Hebrew phrase is used in Jeremiah 4:23 but it is about a complete destruction upon the earth that God did at some point after His creation.

In Luke 21:20-22, with the armies surrounding Jerusalem, that... specific idea of "desolation" is different than the "abomination of desolation" event that happens 3.5 years before that...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

Isaiah 61:2 uses the phrase, "day of vengeance" for the last day of this world. Per Luke 4, Lord Jesus at the start of His Ministry read from the Book of Isaiah, but He closed the Book before He got to that last phrase of Isaiah 61:2. It was because that phrase was not about His 1st coming, but His still future 2nd coming.

What that Luke 21:20-22 Scripture is doing then, is giving us a little bit 'more' information about these events for the END. Jesus does the same thing with the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions. There are small bits of different information between all three Scripture examples that must be put together as a whole.

In Summary:
1. the "abomination of desolation" event = an IDOL abomination that causes SPIRITUAL desolation of the temple.

2. the Luke 21:20 "desolation" of the armies surrounding Jerusalem = the future "day of the Lord" destruction event at Jesus' future 2nd coming to defeat Satan's armies that come upon Israel on the last day of this world.

 

[Davidpt]

No, tribulation has been in the world sin Adam committed high treason against God.

But the "Great Tribulation" has not started yet.





None the less they are getting geared up to build another temple and it does not have to be where the demonic temple of islam is at on the dome of the rock.

Hide and watch, the anti-christ is going to make covenant with Israel and sit in a temple the Jews build and he will proclaim himself to be god and this makes the start of the 7 year tribulation period

In the meantime Christ can return before any of these things ever happen. IOW, that is because, regardless when Christ returns, He will return before these things ever happen, because these things are never going to happen to begin with, meaning in a literal sense like that. Some futurists are similar to Preterists when it it comes to the Discourse. They too, like Preterists do, take some things in the literal sense in the Discourse not even meant in a literal sense. Both wrongly assume the literal sense in meant. Look at Matthew 24:29, for instance. Are we to take that in the literal sense, that literal stars will be falling out of heaven?

 

[Davy]

In the meantime Christ can return before any of these things ever happen. IOW, that is because, regardless when Christ returns, He will return before these things ever happen, because these things are never going to happen to begin with, meaning in a literal sense like that. Some futurists are similar to Preterists when it it comes to the Discourse. They too, like Preterists do, take some things in the literal sense in the Discourse not even meant in a literal sense. Both wrongly assume the literal sense in meant. Look at Matthew 24:29, for instance. Are we to take that in the literal sense, that literal stars will be falling out of heaven?

Well, the Matt.24:29 Scripture is beyond all doubt pointing to Jesus' coming after... the tribulation, and that is written in that Matthew 24:29 verse. Thus you are confused about that, and if you believe Jesus comes PRIOR to that tribulation He was pointing to, then you are not following what He said.

 

[Marty fox]

Nowhere in the Luke 21 account does it ever mention an AOD taking place in the temple of God. An AOD involving a temple that is no longer the temple of God in 70 AD makes sense exactly how? The A stands for abomination. You of course already know that. what then was the abomination that led to the desolation in 70 AD?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Look what these verses say---When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation--Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. IOW, until one sees the AOD, in the meantime they are not doing this--let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. Therefore, one can't argue, for example, that the abomination was the continual animal sacrificing still taking place after Christ died and rose. Clearly, one could see for 40 years straight that animal sacrificing continued, yet not one person was doing this for 40 years---When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation--Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. I'm not saying that that might be your view. I'm saying there are some that hold that view. Therefore, I was merely providing an example since it appears to be a multiple choice question in regards to what the AOD was, assuming it was fulfilled involving 70 AD.

Therefore, we can check animal sacrificing continued for 40 years after Christ died and rose, off the list, since this couldn't remotely explain the abomination meant.

Not to mention. As if it makes sense, that those who insist the AOD was fulfilled 2000 years ago involving 70 AD, yet not all of these that insist this can even agree with each other as to what the AOD was. If that's not a red flag I don't know what is? After all, if the AOD was indeed fulfilled involving 70 AD, it should no longer be a multiple choice question as to what it was. Everyone would be in agreement about what it was.

Matthew was writing to the Jews so he used the term AOD because the Jews would understand what it was.

Luke was writing to a gentile so he used a different term for AOD Rome surrounding the city

Rome were the abomination that caused the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple. The reason for this was apostate Israel rejecting and killing their Messiah and God.

When the Jews continued the temple sacrifices after Jesus’ death it was a constant rejection to what Jesus did that was pushing the Jews further away from Jesus, so in tough love God allowed Rome to destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

It was a needed mercy event to help the Jews realize that Jesus was their God and Messiah because what He predicted to happen happened when He said that it would happen proving who He was.

 

[Davy]

Matthew was writing to the Jews so he used the term AOD because the Jews would understand what it was.

Luke was writing to a gentile so he used a different term for AOD Rome surrounding the city

Rome were the abomination that caused the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple. The reason for this was apostate Israel rejecting and killing their Messiah and God.

When the Jews continued the temple sacrifices after Jesus’ death it was a constant rejection to what Jesus did that was pushing the Jews further away from Jesus, so in tough love God allowed Rome to destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

It was a needed mercy event to help the Jews realize that Jesus was their God and Messiah because what He predicted to happen happened when He said that it would happen proving who He was.

That's men's doctrines mixed in with Bible Scripture.

Christ's Olivet discourse is specifically about prophetic events that will be fulfilled in the generation of the fig tree, which is the LAST generation on earth that will literally 'SEE' His future 2nd coming.

Christ's not one stone atop another event only serves as a dual fulfillment for the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple.

The "abomination of desolation" prophecy REQUIRES a STANDING JEWISH TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM. That is per the Book of Daniel (Dan.11; Dan.9:27; Dan.8; Dan.12). The Romans in 70 A.D. NEVER fulfilled that "abomination of desolation" prophecy. The Jewish historian Josephus said the temple burned down before the Roman army could get possession of it.

Jesus linked the event of "great tribulation" with the placing of that "abomination of desolation" idol at a temple in Jerusalem built by the orthodox Jews.

The "great tribulation" Jesus linked to the time of the last generation that will see His 2nd coming.

Per the Zechariah 6:12-13 Scripture, Jesus when He returns will build His future Millennial sanctuary in Jerusalem. The new 3rd temple today's orthodox Jews will build in order to fulfill the AOD prophecy will be that not one stone atop another final fulfillment on the day of Jesus' return.

 

[Davidpt]

Well, the Matt.24:29 Scripture is beyond all doubt pointing to Jesus' coming after... the tribulation, and that is written in that Matthew 24:29 verse. Thus you are confused about that, and if you believe Jesus comes PRIOR to that tribulation He was pointing to, then you are not following what He said.

If anyone is confused about anything, it is you that is confused about what I'm saying and meaning. Why did I bring up verse 29 to begin with? Simple. Because I was arguing that not everything in the Discourse is meaning in the literal sense, and that a verse such as verse 29 proves it. Therefore, you are reading things into my posts that I never meant nor implied. You adding to what I said and meant, things I never said and meant. For the record, yet again, though you should already know this by now, since I have reminded you numerous times in the past already, I am Post Trib not Pretrib. Obviously then, my position would be and is, that Jesus comes after the Matthew 24:29 verse, not prior to it.

 

[ewq1938]

Then how come Jesus used the word “you” in Matthew 24 when He was talking to the disciples?

One can address a crowd and talk about a future group and speak to them as "you". Prophecy usually is written in one generation but fulfilled in a generation not even born yet.

Matthew 24
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

This actually also happened to the disciples

No because John was not murdered. The disciples we not saved/gathered by angels as Christ spoke about so without a doubt the disciples were not the generation being spoken about. Your own example does not fit and none saw these events:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


None of them were gathered like this. Most were brutally murdered and one died of old age.

 

[ewq1938]

Luke was writing to a gentile so he used a different term for AOD Rome surrounding the city

He did not mention Rome a single time plus Rome owned it for decades anyways. The AoD is the AC who will make Rome look like a tiny nothing country in comparison. Preterism makes ppl stop looking for the AC, which is what satan wants. All false doctrines and teachings deny the AC in some way.

 

[covenantee]

He did not mention Rome a single time plus Rome owned it for decades anyways. The AoD is the AC who will make Rome look like a tiny nothing country in comparison. Preterism makes ppl stop looking for the AC, which is what satan wants. All false doctrines and teachings deny the AC in some way.

Luke referred to armies. Whose armies do you think they were?

There's no "AC". That's modernist revisionist Scofield futurist fantasy and fallacy, which rejects Jesus' words and warnings fulfilled in the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The Judaean Christians heeded Jesus' warnings in Matthew 24:15-16, and fled and escaped destruction.

Thankfully, not one of them was a Scofield futurist.

 

[Douggg]

You just don't get it, Douggg. None of that matters. The temple of God, whether physical or spiritual, has always been a temple that God dwells in. He would not dwell in this imaginary temple that you're talking about, so your questions are pointless.

Transgression of Desolation and Abomination of Desolation - the temple made desolate from what activity ?

 

[Marty fox]

Luke referred to armies. Whose armies do you think they were?

There's no "AC". That's modernist revisionist Scofield futurist fantasy and fallacy, which rejects Jesus' words and warnings fulfilled in the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The Judaean Christians heeded Jesus' warnings in Matthew 24:15-16, and fled and escaped destruction.

Thankfully, not one of them was a Scofield futurist.

Yes amen and the AC John describes was a deceiving spirt more than one and in many in Johns day