I am a cessionist. Much of what is written in the New Testament is for the pre-40-70 AD period. There were many gullible ECFs who thought they went past that point.
Are the promises in John 14:12-14 true?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Lambano
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I was hoping to soften your heart, as well as remind those who find you difficult to get along with that you are still loved by God.
St. SteVen said:
That's the pointless whitewashing I have been criticizing here.
What are our choices logically?
- The Bible is wrong?
- Jesus is wrong?
- We are wrong?
No wonder they choose the third option.
Welcome to the forum.
I would discount option 2 unless Jesus was misquoted.
But that would be option 1 - The Bible is wrong.
If the Bible is wrong, it may be caused by Bible translator error or bias.
I suppose we should check on translator notes to see what happened.
I don't see any good reason to blame it on us believers.
The "they" I am referring to are the ones who blame it on us.
"They" say we don't REALLY believe, or we aren't REALLY living "in Jesus' name".
John 14:12-14 NIV
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing,
and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
That's the pointless whitewashing I have been criticizing here.
What are our choices logically?
- The Bible is wrong?
- Jesus is wrong?
- We are wrong?
No wonder they choose the third option.
Welcome to the forum.
I would discount option 2 unless Jesus was misquoted.
But that would be option 1 - The Bible is wrong.
If the Bible is wrong, it may be caused by Bible translator error or bias.
I suppose we should check on translator notes to see what happened.
I don't see any good reason to blame it on us believers.
The "they" I am referring to are the ones who blame it on us.
"They" say we don't REALLY believe, or we aren't REALLY living "in Jesus' name".
John 14:12-14 NIV
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing,
and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Lambano
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There's gotta be some fine print somewhere...
Not valid outside of Israel. Offer expires August 9, 70 AD.
Not valid outside of Israel. Offer expires August 9, 70 AD.
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Lambano
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That's funny, but would indicate some shady legal maneuvering. (hidden in the fine print)
Thank you for the welcome.
God not answering our prayers the way we want, especially over matters that concern health or death, .... It could be tied to the issue Satan raised in Job 2:4....When our or a loved one's health is attacked, how will we respond? Will we give up?
Job 1 was about Job himself. In Job 2:4, Satan expanded the accusation to include everybody worshipping God.
When we're facing difficult trials, instead of concentrating on our problems, it helps to focus on the solution to those problems -- the Kingdom. Notice what the "voice from the throne" says @ Revelation 21:3-5
Gotta go. More later.
@Lambano
I'm probably kinder than anyone you know. But I will defend the Bible! It is PROVEN!
Or Satan's messengers who hate God of the Bible.
Do you read your own messages???
Quoting YOU:
And clarity is further confused by the definitions shell game.
Why do we need a secret decoder ring to understand the Bible?
This is Freakin' nuts. (no wonder I don't trust the Bible)
You said it. I just quoted YOU.
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Deborah_
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That's one explanation that I've come across, but I'm not sure that I buy it - it would be an odd way of saying it.
Deborah_
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The Bible speaks clearly (though sometimes in apparently contradictory ways - see below)
Jesus is the Truth personified.
We are: sinful, rebellious, (relatively) stupid, self-absorbed.
The world is: spiritually dark, sinful, rebellious.
It's like living in permanent fog, listening to a message over a crackly radio. The "fault" is on the reception side.
It doesn't help that in ancient Hebrew culture, propositions are always made in unambiguous, black-and-white terms, leaving us to fill in the shades of grey. "Honour your father and mother" - but not above Jesus! "I will give you anything you ask" - but not if it's "to spend on your pleasures". If God makes a categorical statement, it's nearly always qualified by an exception somewhere.
Not even Jesus got everything that He asked for in prayer...
Lambano
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Interesting. This boils down to an unstated fine print in the promise.
When his wife had him unexpectedly served with divorce papers over the weekend, one of my co-workers was fuming Monday morning saying, "I'm going to hire me a lawyer whose name ends in -witz, -berg, or -stein and make sure she doesn't get a dime!" I guess we know why the Jewish people have such a stereotype for producing lawyers. It's built into the culture.
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Lambano
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One of the men on our prayer team said he always prefaced his prayer petitions with "If it be thy will..." Is that proper and appropriate piety, or just providing an emotional hedge in case God says "No"?
Deborah_
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We don't have the authority to tell God what to do. He has a veto - and He probably exercises it frequently
I'm not saying that.
Luke 10:19 NIV
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to
overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
Mark 11:23 NIV
“Truly[a] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’
and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.
Lambano
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Authority? What authority do we REALLY have?
My understanding of prayer in Jesus's name is God's people petitioning the King's Son to intercede on our behalf with His father to grant something we cannot do for ourselves. (Or, if you prefer the medieval patronage system, God's people request a patron with better connections to petition the King's Son to petition His father on their behalf. Like St. Jude, the patron saint of Hopeless Causes. That guy should probably be my patron, if I were Catholic.)
Maybe that's our escape hatch on John 14:12-14. We ask Jesus to intercede with the Father on our behalf, and He promised He'll do it. He asks, but the Father tells Him "No". But Jesus still kept His promise. Does that work?
Now I offended the Catholics and the Snake Handlers, all in one append.
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Lambano
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Why isn't this happening? Or if it is, why is it so rare?
Maybe in some churches...
We have a different understanding on that.
To pray "in Jesus' name" is to TAKE authority. It's kingdom business. IMO
Luke 10:19 NIV
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to
overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
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