WAYS THAT AMILS GET ZECHARIAH 14 WRONG

[WPM]

Not even a coming during the first century in a spiritual sense? How can you disprove that? In your mind there's no chance at all that the following verses could be related, for example...

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Can you show me where Zechariah 14 talks about an event of "sudden destruction" where everyone in spiritual darkness "shall not escape", as Paul wrote about the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4? You have unbelievers escaping destruction in Zechariah 14, right? How does that agree with what Paul wrote about the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4?

It also doesn't line up with what Peter wrote about the day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3:10-12, but we've discussed that passage already. I'd like to just focus on 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 for now and how you reconcile it with your understanding of Zechariah 14.

Those who disagree have no NT warrant to argue otherwise.

 

[Davy]

When I speak of things the prophets of Old foretell as needing to be spiritually discerned, I'm saying the physical/literal things the Old Covenant prophets foretell would be forever can only be correctly understood through literal but spiritual fulfillment.

Spiritual discernment, huh? Let's see then. Can you answer the following?


1. What did Jesus mean in Matthew 25 about the difference between the five wise virgins that had a 'spare vessel' of the Oil, but the five foolish virgins did not?

2. In Matthew 13, when Christ's Apostles asked Him why He spoke to the multitudes in parable, why did Jesus tell them that to His disciples was given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but to the multitudes it was not... given?

3. In Matthew 7, with those who will say to Jesus on the day of His future return, "Lord, Lord", and Jesus will say to those to get away from Him, that He never knew them, those who work iniquity. And that even they will claim they cast out demons in His names, preached Him in their streets, and did many wonderful works in His name. Just what 'iniquity' will they be found guilty of when He comes?

4. Per what Jesus said to the daughters of Jerusalem on His way to be crucified, per Luke 23:27-30, why did He say the day would come when they shall say about the blessed, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck,"?

5. Who does Jabez in 1 Chronicles 4 represent, literally?

6. What's the difference between deceived Jews who reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, and those of the "synagogue of Satan"? (Rev.2:9 & 3:9)

7. What things was Peter referring to in Apostle Paul's Epistles "... in which are some things hard to be understood"? (2 Pet.3:15-16)

Consider for instance this verse from Joel telling us "Judah shall dwell forever." Every student of the Word should understand this cannot be referring to the physical tribe of Judah. There is nothing of this world that shall be forever because everything of this world is passing away. However spiritual Judah shall dwell forever.

Joel 3:20 (KJV) But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

Well, you obviously have not read Jeremiah 31 where our Heavenly Father Himself promised that the 'seed' of Israel would last forever (Ezekiel 37 also). And by seed it means His chosen ones of the 12 tribes of Israel. Since even Lord Jesus promised His 12 Apostles would each sit upon thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in His coming Kingdom, you really should not have made the Biblically illiterate statement above.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It makes no sense for Joel to say the day of the Lord was near at hand if the day of the Lord won't come until the very end of time.

Joel 2:1 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

At the time the prophecy was given, what you believe was the beginning of the day of the Lord was not literally near at hand since that prophecy was written hundreds of years before Christ came. So, I'm not sure why you want to take that so literally when it talks about the day of the Lord being near at hand.

Another thing it says early in Joel 2 is that the day of the Lord is "a day of darkness and gloominess". To me, that fits the description given by Paul of the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night to bring "sudden destruction" upon those who are in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape". How exactly does your understanding of the day of the Lord fit the description of it being "a day of darkness and gloominess"?

Also, when it comes to passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 that refer to the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, you don't take those literally like you do the text talking about the day of the Lord being at hand because you say they are referring to the last day of the Lord rather than to the day of the Lord itself. So, I'm not seeing a consistency there when it comes to when you decide to take the text literally or not.

Regardless, I'm not sure that all of this matters much. Whether you call the NT time period of the first coming of Christ up to the second coming of Christ "the last days" or "the day of the Lord" or both, what difference does it really make? We agree that the last days began long ago with the first coming of Christ and we agree that the last day of world history will be the day that Jesus returns to gather His own to Himself and to bring destruction and wrath upon His enemies while putting an end to sin and death once and for all. After which He will judge all people and then have His people inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the earth in the form of the eternal new heavens and new earth while all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire. We agree on all that, so a disagreement about the meaning of the term "the day of the Lord" pales in comparison to all of that. So, I'm fine to just agree to disagree on the topic of how the term "the day of the Lord" should be defined.

 

[rwb]

Regardless, I'm not sure that all of this matters much. Whether you call the NT time period of the first coming of Christ up to the second coming of Christ "the last days" or "the day of the Lord" or both, what difference does it really make? We agree that the last days began long ago with the first coming of Christ and we agree that the last day of world history will be the day that Jesus returns to gather His own to Himself and to bring destruction and wrath upon His enemies while putting an end to sin and death once and for all. After which He will judge all people and then have His people inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the earth in the form of the eternal new heavens and new earth while all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire. We agree on all that, so a disagreement about the meaning of the term "the day of the Lord" pales in comparison to all of that. So, I'm fine to just agree to disagree on the topic of how the term "the day of the Lord" should be defined.

It matters because you are aligning your doctrine with that of Premillennialism. You continue to argue the day of the Lord the prophets foretell is the final day of the Lord the New Testament writes is when Christ comes again. You've argued that you don't see the day of the Lord linked with the last days, but now it doesn't matter to you?

Why didn't you address this part of my reply???

"This places the day of the Lord the prophets foretell coming AFTER time (a thousand years) has expired! That would make the day of the Lord coming lasting only for a little season! This little season is the time given to Satan to gather together ALL who are deceived to make one last attempt at keeping the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete! When we read everything that must be accomplished during this period of time designated as the day of the Lord coming, it is NOT possible for all that is written to be fulfilled in one "little season"."

You can agree to disagree if that makes you feel better, but I do not agree! I view this as a way to end a discussion when you have been shown why the doctrine you cling to does not align with the Word of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It matters because you are aligning your doctrine with that of Premillennialism.

No, I absolutely am not. That is a ludicrous and utterly foolish comment. Premillennialism agrees with you that the day of the Lord refers to a long period of time rather than a literal 24 hour day, as I believe. During some hour during that literal 24 hour day in the future that no one knows when it will occur (Matthew 24:36, Matthew 25:13), Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night to bring His wrath in the form of "sudden destruction" upon those in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape". None of them will escape! How does that align with Premillennialism?! It absolutely does not. Premillennialism says that some in spiritual darkness will somehow escape that sudden destruction. Based on what Peter wrote about the same event in 2 Peter 3:10-12, that is impossible because fire will come down upon the entire earth. No mortal will escape that. You accusing me of aligning my doctrine with Premillennialism when I am not doing that all is a blatant lie! You should be better than this.

You continue to argue the day of the Lord the prophets foretell is the final day of the Lord the New Testament writes is when Christ comes again.

Because that's how the NT authors describe the day of the Lord! Hello? Do you not think that the NT authors understood the Old Testament? Why do you not see any description of the day of the Lord anywhere in the NT that matches your understanding of the day of the Lord? Do you somehow have more understanding than the NT authors about the day of the Lord?

You've argued that you don't see the day of the Lord linked with the last days, but now it doesn't matter to you?

I'm saying it doesn't matter what label we put on the New Testament time period. Why does that matter? I see it as "the last days". You agree. But, you also see it as the day of the Lord, but I don't. Why does that matter how we label that time period? Explain that to me. We agree that the last day of the last days refers to the same event described in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, right? Explain how it matters what label we put on that? The fact of the matter, though, is that Paul and Peter call that event "the day of the Lord". You, in contrast, call it "the last day of the Lord". You are thereby changing the text to fit your understanding of the first part of Joel 2, which I don't share.

Why didn't you address this part of my reply???

Says the guy who didn't address what I said about the fact that the first part of Joel 2 was written hundreds of years before Christ came, so it doesn't make sense to take it literally to be saying the day of the Lord was literally at hand at that time. Hundreds of years is not literally at hand. I have addressed a great deal of what you said, but you're not satisfied with that? I tried to say we should agree to disagree, but are you satisfied with that? Of course not because you're like a little child who has to get his way.

"This places the day of the Lord the prophets foretell coming AFTER time (a thousand years) has expired! That would make the day of the Lord coming lasting only for a little season! This little season is the time given to Satan to gather together ALL who are deceived to make one last attempt at keeping the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete! When we read everything that must be accomplished during this period of time designated as the day of the Lord coming, it is NOT possible for all that is written to be fulfilled in one "little season"."

I didn't address this because it makes no sense and doesn't represent what I believe. I don't have the day of the Lord coming after time has expired. Why do you keep speaking nonsense? I don't take nonsense seriously.

How can time be complete when the thousand years expires when there is still a little season of time which follows it? You just have no idea how little sense you make sometimes.

I place the timing of the day of the Lord the same as what we see written in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. How many times do I need to tell you that? According to passages like those, the day of the Lord is a future day that has not yet come, but will come when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night and takes vengeance on unbelievers by bringing "sudden destruction" upon them from which "they shall not escape". What don't you understand about what I believe? What is causing you to misunderstand my simple explanation of how I understand the day of the Lord?

You can agree to disagree if that makes you feel better, but I do not agree!

LOL. So, you don't want to agree to disagree, you'd rather just try to force me to agree with you?

I view this as a way to end a discussion when you have been shown why the doctrine you cling to does not align with the Word of God.

You mean my Amil doctrine that is the same as your doctrine except I just don't refer to the time period that we agree is "the last days" also as "the day of the Lord" as you do? I am not doing anything to contradict Amil with my view. To foolishly accuse me of aligning my doctrine with Premillennialism when I am not doing that whatsoever is just unbelievable. I think you have lost your mind.

 

[rwb]

Premillennialism agrees with you that the day of the Lord refers to a long period of time rather than a literal 24 hour day, as I believe.

Again, you're confusing the final day of the Lord and the day of the Lord that came with the first advent of Christ, the last day of the Lord that shall come when the last trumpet sounds is the end of the day of the Lord, not the beginning. How can you possibly, remember the prophet writing of the day of the Lord says in this time "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Joel 2:32 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Mankind has been calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation from the time Christ came to earth to fulfill all that would come to pass throughout this time. That means the day of the Lord cannot be limited to one twenty-four-hour day as you believe. Only the final day of the Lord implies a single day. And since time shall be no longer after this last day, there won't be any time left for whosoever will to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

Because that's how the NT authors describe the day of the Lord! Hello? Do you not think that the NT authors understood the Old Testament? Why do you not see any description of the day of the Lord anywhere in the NT that matches your understanding of the day of the Lord? Do you somehow have more understanding than the NT authors about the day of the Lord?

The New Testament speaks only of Christ coming the second time, which is referenced "the day of the Lord" when He shall come AGAIN. This is clearly NOT the day of the Lord, the first coming the prophets of Old foretell.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Says the guy who didn't address what I said about the fact that the first part of Joel 2 was written hundreds of years before Christ came, so it doesn't make sense to take it literally to be saying the day of the Lord was literally at hand at that time. Hundreds of years is not literally at hand. I have addressed a great deal of what you said, but you're not satisfied with that? I tried to say we should agree to disagree, but are you satisfied with that? Of course not because you're like a little child who has to get his way.

I didn't answer because it makes you appear foolish! You say Joel cannot be referring to the coming of Christ because His coming was hundreds of years away. Then you argue the day of the Lord will come after time shall be no longer, which to date is about 2,000 years and on-going.

I didn't address this because it makes no sense and doesn't represent what I believe. I don't have the day of the Lord coming after time has expired. Why do you keep speaking nonsense? I don't take nonsense seriously.

Go back and read your own words. You keep saying the day of the Lord won't come until Christ comes again. That's the last day! So I questioned how you think all that is written especially be able to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, can possibly be accomplished on ONE DAY? By now you should simply acknowledge the last day of these last days when Christ comes again is not the day of the Lord coming, but the LAST day of the Lord that came with the first advent of Christ.

How can time be complete when the thousand years expires when there is still a little season of time which follows it? You just have no idea how little sense you make sometimes.

You don't understand the difference between time given the Church to build the Kingdom of God in heaven and Satan's little season? When the last trumpet begins to sound TIME, symbolized by John a/the thousand years shall be no longer. (Rev 10:5-7). That symbolizes the time the Church was given to go unto all the world and preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God and then shall the end come. (Mt 24:14). This agrees with the symbolic time Satan is bound that he could deceive the nations no longer (Rev 20:2-3). Then when this time is finished, Satan is loosed from the pit for a little season (Rev 20:7-9). This marks the end of time the Church is given to build the spiritual Kingdom of God as they proclaim the gospel unto all the nations of the world, but it also begins Satan's little season he shall not have until the thousand years expire. (Rev 20:7)

Revelation 10:6 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Revelation 10:7 (KJV) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I place the timing of the day of the Lord the same as what we see written in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

I know you do! That's how I know you have no rightly understood the day of the Lord, because you place it at the end of this world, just as Premillennialists do. It appears the difference between you and Premillennialists is that you think the day of the Lord will only be one day when Christ comes again, and they think the day of the Lord will be at least one thousand literal years after Christ has come again.

According to passages like those, the day of the Lord is a future day that has not yet come,

I can't believe you continue to argue this! But you cannot explain nor do you even try to explain how all that is foretold to come to pass in the day of the Lord can be fulfilled in ONE DAY when Christ comes again!!! It is the final DAY of the Lord after everything but Christ's coming again has been fulfilled, that shall be fulfilled when Christ comes again. Everything else written of Christ will be finished before the last day of the Lord.

What don't you understand about what I believe? What is causing you to misunderstand my simple explanation of how I understand the day of the Lord?

I'm not misunderstanding what you believe! What I'm trying to show you is that what you believe regarding the day of the Lord is NOT biblical! Continuing to make the same argument over and over again does not change that fact!

So, you don't want to agree to disagree, you'd rather just try to force me to agree with you?

That's the way of those who refuse to admit the doctrine they espouse is unbiblical. I can't force anyone to agree with me. All I can do is continue to show from the Scripture why you lack understanding of the doctrine of the day of the Lord. Why do you refuse to accept the last day of the Lord that shall be when Christ returns again, and cannot possibly accomplish all that is written that must come to pass if the day of His coming is only a twenty-four-hour day?

You mean my Amil doctrine that is the same as your doctrine except I just don't refer to the time period that we agree is "the last days" also as "the day of the Lord" as you do? I am not doing anything to contradict Amil with my view. To foolishly accuse me of aligning my doctrine with Premillennialism when I am not doing that whatsoever is just unbelievable. I think you have lost your mind.

I'm not so sure we are as likeminded in doctrine as I once thought we were.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, you're confusing the final day of the Lord that came with the first advent of Christ and the last day of the Lord that shall come when the last trumpet sounds. How can you possibly, remember the prophet writing of the day of the Lord says in this time "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Joel 2:32 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Mankind has been calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation from the time Christ came to earth to fulfill all that would come to pass throughout this time. That means the day of the Lord cannot be limited to one twenty-four-hour day as you believe. Only the final day of the Lord implies a single day. And since time shall be no longer after this last day, there won't be any time left for whosoever will to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

Joel is referring to "the last days" in that verse, not "the day of the Lord". People have been calling on the name of the Lord and being saved during "the last days", according to Joel in Joel 2:28-32. Which Peter quoted in Acts 2:16-21. The last days lead up to the day of the Lord when the Lord Jesus will come as a thief in the night.

The New Testament speaks only of Christ coming the second time, which is referenced "the day of the Lord" when He shall come AGAIN. This is clearly NOT the day of the Lord, the first coming the prophets of Old foretell.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Scripture only ever speaks of the day of the Lord in relation to the second coming of Christ. It speaks of the time of His first coming up to the day of His second coming as "the last days".

I didn't answer because it makes you appear foolish! You say Joel cannot be referring to the coming of Christ because His coming was hundreds of years away.

No, I am not saying that. Your reading comprehension is very lacking. I am saying that it makes no sense to take his reference to the day of the Lord as being "at hand" literally even if it was referring to His first coming because His first coming didn't occur until hundreds of years after Joel said it was "at hand". You're not addressing my actual argument here. You need to actually make an effort to see what I'm actually saying instead o to what your imaginary strawman is saying.

Then you argue the day of the Lord will come after time shall be no longer, which to date is about 2,000 years and on-going.

I don't argue this, either! What is the name of your strawman? Do you know you can't get the time back that you spend arguing with him? I do NOT argue that the day of the Lord will come after time shall be no longer! You are either lying or have terrible reading comprehension skills. Which is it? I argue that the day of the Lord is the last day of time. The day during which Jesus will return and will come as a thief in the night. How is that a case of arguing that "the day of the Lord will come after time shall be no longer"? It's clearly not. You apparently have no interest in addressing what I actually believe and can only misrepresent my beliefs.

Go back and read your own words. You keep saying the day of the Lord won't come until Christ comes again. That's the last day!

Yes! No kidding! Hello? So, it appears you can at least understand what I'm arguing. With that being the case, why do you still misrepresent what I'm arguing by claiming that I'm arguing that He will come after time has expired rather than on the last day of time? He won't come after time has ended, His coming will be on the last day while time still exists and then once He comes that will be what puts an end to time. After He first has His people gathered to Himself and after He sends fire onto the earth, which will be "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape".

So I questioned how you think all that is written especially be able to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, can possibly be accomplished on ONE DAY?

I do not claim that! Hello? Wake up. I call that time period what Joel called it in Joel 2:28-32. The last days. They began with the first coming of Christ and extend until the day of His second coming, which will be the last day. Why would I claim that people can only call on the name of the Lord to be saved for one day? Come on. Stop your nonsense already. You know I'm not claiming that, so why do you do this?

By now you should simply acknowledge the last day of these last days when Christ comes again is not the day of the Lord coming, but the LAST day of the Lord that came with the first advent of Christ.

I'm not going to acknowledge that when that's not what I see taught in scripture. You are mistaken about this just like you are mistaken about some other things, which I won't mention here since those are different topics.

You don't understand the difference between time given the Church to build the Kingdom of God in heaven and Satan's little season?

Of course I do! Hello? Why do you continue to ask dumb questions and speak utter nonsense? I never imagined you would be like this. I expect that from a pre-trib. What in the world have I said that would lead you to believe I wouldn't know the difference? I have explained my Amil understanding MANY times. How can you not know what I believe by now? I see Satan's little season as being a short time just before the return of Christ when wickedness is unrestrained, resulting in increased persecution, deception, wickedness and apostasy. Is that not your understanding of Satan's little season? Most Amils see it that way.

When the last trumpet begins to sound TIME, symbolized by John a/the thousand years shall be no longer. (Rev 10:5-7). That symbolizes the time the Church was given to go unto all the world and preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God and then shall the end come. (Mt 24:14). This agrees with the symbolic time Satan is bound that he could deceive the nations no longer (Rev 20:2-3). Then when this time is finished, Satan is loosed from the pit for a little season (Rev 20:7-9).

LOL. You have time ending and then a little season of time occurring after time has ended. That is ludicrous. Do you not associate passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with Satan's little season? Why do you try to claim that time ends before time actually ends? I can't make any sense of what you're saying at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know you do! That's how I know you have no rightly understood the day of the Lord, because you place it at the end of this world, just as Premillennialists do.

LOL! You are truly cracking me up with your nonsense. Your view is more like the Premillennialist view than mine because, like them, you have the day of the Lord lasting for a long time instead of what scripture teaches, which is that it will come as a thief in the night bringing sudden destruction. There is nothing written anywhere in scripture describing the day of the Lord as a long period of time. You make fools of Paul and Peter with that claim. You try to twist passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 to be talking about "the last day of the Lord" (a term you invented) even though they refer to "the day of the Lord". My understanding of the day of the Lord matches what Paul and Peter described in relation to the day of the Lord. Yours does not. I have scripture clearly on my side here. I'm not required to change Paul and Peter's words to fit my understanding like you are.

It appears the difference between you and Premillennialists is that you think the day of the Lord will only be one day when Christ comes again, and they think the day of the Lord will be at least one thousand literal years after Christ has come again.

You have that in common with them, thinking that the day of the Lord lasts for a long time rather than being one day, as Paul and Peter clearly taught.

I can't believe you continue to argue this!

The feeling is mutual! I can't believe you continue to misrepresent my view and I can't believe that you blatantly contradict Paul and Peter's understanding of the day of the Lord. You continue to confuse "the last days" with "the day of the Lord" even though scripture never equates the two.

But you cannot explain nor do you even try to explain how all that is foretold to come to pass in the day of the Lord can be fulfilled in ONE DAY when Christ comes again!!! It is the final DAY of the Lord after everything but Christ's coming again has been fulfilled, that shall be fulfilled when Christ comes again. Everything else written of Christ will be finished before the last day of the Lord.

Hello? I don't agree with everything you think is said to occur on the day of the Lord. Unlike you, I agree with what Paul indicated will occur on the day of the Lord, as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3. He described it as a literal day and not a time period. As did Peter. I simply choose to take Paul and Peter's words over yours. And I will do that every time.

I'm not misunderstanding what you believe!

LOL! Yes, you are! Repeatedly! I can't believe you are even for real. You keep trying to tell me that I have the day of the Lord occurring after time has ended. Nonsense! You clearly don't understand that you have a reading comprehension problem.

What I'm trying to show you is that what you believe regarding the day of the Lord is NOT biblical!

Yes, you are trying to do that and you are failing miserably! Deal with it. Stop trying to force me to agree with you about this. I never will.

That's the way of those who refuse to admit the doctrine they espouse is unbiblical. I can't force anyone to agree with me.

But, you're trying! I was trying to cordially just agree to disagree with you, but you just can't help yourself. And you make yourself look worse by misrepresenting my belief.

I'm not so sure we are as likeminded in doctrine as I once thought we were.

We clearly are not. Obviously, we are far apart when it comes to soteriology. And in our understanding of Satan and demons and how they came to be the way they are. But, when it comes to end times doctrine, our views are quite similar, overall. Regardless of what label we put on the past 2,000 years or so ("the last days", "the day of the Lord" or both), we agree that the New Testament time period is symbolically referred to as "the thousand years" in Revelation 20 and began with the first coming of Christ. We both disagree with Premill even though you are wickedly and foolishly trying to equate my view with Premill. Neither of us agrees with Premill, so why go there?

 

[rwb]

Joel is referring to "the last days" in that verse, not "the day of the Lord".

The prophesy begins with the day of the Lord that was coming, and all that follows pertains to all that shall come to pass in that day/age these "last days"!

Joel 2:1 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Scripture only ever speaks of the day of the Lord in relation to the second coming of Christ. It speaks of the time of His first coming up to the day of His second coming as "the last days".

Wrong! Apparently, you have no ability to understand the fullness of the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell was to come when Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord came to the earth.

No, I am not saying that. Your reading comprehension is very lacking. I am saying that it makes no sense to take his reference to the day of the Lord as being "at hand" literally even if it was referring to His first coming because His first coming didn't occur until hundreds of years after Joel said it was "at hand". You're not addressing my actual argument here. You need to actually make an effort to see what I'm actually saying instead o to what your imaginary strawman is saying.

It's very hard to answer questions that totally lack understanding of Old of all that is prophesied to come in the day of the Lord!

I argue that the day of the Lord is the last day of time. The day during which Jesus will return and will come as a thief in the night.

I don't argue this, either! What is the name of your strawman? Do you know you can't get the time back that you spend arguing with him? I do NOT argue that the day of the Lord will come after time shall be no longer! You are either lying or have terrible reading comprehension skills. Which is it? I argue that the day of the Lord is the last day of time. The day during which Jesus will return and will come as a thief in the night. How is that a case of arguing that "the day of the Lord will come after time shall be no longer"? It's clearly not. You apparently have no interest in addressing what I actually believe and can only misrepresent my beliefs.

Go back and read what you've written! You continue to say the day of the Lord will not come until the seventh trumpet sounds. HELLO! That's when TIME shall be no longer! You appear to be clueless even of the LAST day of the Lord that shall come when time given the Church expires! The prophets of Old foretell of ALL that shall come to pass beginning with the coming of Christ in His day/time/age, these last days, and ending when His day/time/age, the last days shall be no more! I can only reply on what you have written!

Have you ever bothered to read of the DAYS that follow the sounding of the seventh trumpet? Why days (plural) and not day as the other six trumpets say?

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

How is John in the spirit on the Lord's day if the day of the Lord won't come until time shall be no longer? What else must come to pass in the day(s) when the seventh angel begins to sound?

Revelation 1:10 (KJV) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Six times an angel sounding is immediately followed by whatever would come to pass. But when the seventh angel begins to sound the mystery of God should be finished, that means there are no more Gentiles to be saved, but Satan is still given a little season that comes AFTER time given the Church to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete! During this smallest amount of time in the DAYS the seventh angel has begun to sound, and before the appearance of Christ coming again in the clouds, Satan is set free. During these DAYS the seventh angels sounds, Satan attacks the saints still alive on the earth. Just as it appears Satan may win, during the DAYS when the seventh angel sounds, the saints of Christ are caught up to meet the Lord in the sky as Christ is seen coming in the clouds, then fire shall come down from God out of heaven to utterly burn up the whole earth and whosoever is still alive.

You make no distinction in your argument about the end of time given to build the Kingdom of God which is when TIME shall be no longer. Meaning TIME for building is no more, the Kingdom of God being complete needs time no more.

You have time ending and then a little season of time occurring after time has ended. That is ludicrous. Do you not associate passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with Satan's little season? Why do you try to claim that time ends before time actually ends? I can't make any sense of what you're saying at all.

Of course I do! Because I understand the difference between time given the Church to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, and Satan's little season of time. John is showing us there is an expiration date for building the spiritual Kingdom of God, and when that time expires there are no more people saved, the Kingdom of God shall be complete. But separate from this time given the Church, Satan is also given time of his own. Time that does not expire when the thousand years ends. It is a very small amount of time given him to accomplish, if he were able, to keep the spiritual Kingdom of God from being complete. The last day of the Lord that began when Christ came to earth a man shall be the last day of the Lord when a/the thousand years expire. Then after Satan has his little season, Christ will be seen coming in the clouds of heaven followed by the wrath of God.

 

[rwb]

You have that in common with them, thinking that the day of the Lord lasts for a long time rather than being one day, as Paul and Peter clearly taught.

You simply ignore all the prophets of Old foretell MUST come to pass when this promised day of the Lord would come in these last days. They write not only of the first advent of Messiah to come, followed by the whole New Covenant period of time when they write what shall be, they also write of the end of the day of the Lord which has an end date.

Unlike you, I agree with what Paul indicated will occur on the day of the Lord, as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3.

I know! In doing this you ignore all that is written of Old that MUST come to pass in this age, the last days, called the day of the Lord. Your view of the day of the Lord coming includes only that which you believe shall come to pass in ONE day, the last day of these last days!

You continue to confuse "the last days" with "the day of the Lord" even though scripture never equates the two.

Read the prophets of Old for yourself. They repeatedly connect the last days with the coming day of the Lord.

Unlike you, I agree with what Paul indicated will occur on the day of the Lord, as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3.

Yes, I know! In your unbiblical opinion the day of the Lord consists only of the day of the Lord the New Testament speaks of. In this you completely ignore the day of the Lord coming in these last days the prophets of Old foretell would be a day/time of both blessings and judgment!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Wrong! Apparently, you have no ability to understand the fullness of the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell was to come when Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord came to the earth.

You have no ability to understand that Paul and Peter had the correct understanding of the day of the Lord and that talked about it as a future day when Jesus will come and bring "sudden destruction" by fire upon those who are in spiritual darkness and "they shall not escape". There's no question that they would have been familiar with Joel 2 and, yet, their understanding of the day of the Lord doesn't match yours. Why not just trust that they knew what they were talking about instead of changing their words?

Go back and read what you've written!

As if that will change my mind? LOL. I know what I said and wouldn't change a thing.

You continue to say the day of the Lord will not come until the seventh trumpet sounds. HELLO!

Yes. And? The day of the Lord is the day of the Lord Jesus's return. He will return on the day that the seventh and last trumpet sounds, which will be the last day of world history.

That's when TIME shall be no longer!

That's right! Hello? Are you still not awake? On that day, Jesus will come down from heaven. That's the day of His return. Time will end right after Jesus brings down fire on the entire earth resulting in "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape".

You appear to be clueless even of the LAST day of the Lord that shall come when time given this earth expires!

You appear to have no idea of what you're talking about. Do you not believe that Jesus returns on the day when the seventh and last trumpet sounds? What do you think will happen when the last trumpet sounds? You can read 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Revelation 11:15-18 to find out.

The prophets of Old foretell of ALL that shall come to pass beginning with the coming of Christ in His day/time/age and ending when His day/time/age shall be no more! I can only reply on what you have written!

You are apparently not understanding what I've written because you try to say I have the day of the Lord occurring after time ends, which is not the case. Time ends right after the events of the day of te Lord, including the sudden destruction of unbelievers, are completed.

Have you ever bothered to read of the DAYS that follow the sounding of the seventh trumpet? Why days (plural) and not day as the other six trumpets say?

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Okay, this explains some things. You are misinterpreting this passage. That is talking about the days PRECEDING and leading up to the day that the seventh trumpet sounds, which is the day that Christ returns. Do you not think that the seventh trumpet is the same as the last trumpet? What do you think, that the changing of our bodies to become immortal at the last trumpet will take multiple days instead of happening instantly, as Paul taught?

How is John in the spirit on the Lord's day if the day of the Lord won't come until time shall be no longer?

LOL. You keep saying this nonsense. The day of the Lord is the last day. Time doesn't end before that day, time will end when that day's events are completed.

Of course I do! Because I understand the difference between time given the Church to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, and Satan's little season of time.

So, you apparently don't think anyone can be saved during Satan's little season. I disagree with that. Maybe there won't be many because of the restraint on wickedness being lifted, but there is no indication given that no one can be saved during that time. Look at the following passage...

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

This passage indicates that the Lord is not being slack (slow) to fulfill the promise of His second coming, as some think, but is longsuffering because of not wanting anyone to perish and for all to come to repentance. The context here implies that He will come again only after His patience with people runs out and He decides to finally bring His wrath upon the earth and no longer give people the opportunity to repent. His wrath is obviously described in the verses which follow that passage (2 Peter 3:10-12). That implies that He patiently gives people a chance to repent right up until the day of His return. So, I can't agree with the idea that people can no longer repent during a little season of time that occurs before the day Christ returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You simply ignore all the prophets of Old foretell MUST come to pass when this promised day of the Lord would come. They write not only of the first advent of Messiah to come, followed by the whole New Covenant period of time when they write what shall be, they also write of the end of the day of the Lord which has an end date.

No, I do not. That is a lie. I simply interpret them differently than you do. I interpret them the way Paul and Peter obviously did or else what they wrote about the day of the Lord would match your understanding of it instead of mine.

Read the prophets of Old for yourself. They repeatedly connect the last days with the coming day of the Lord.

Just like the NT authors, they taught that the last days lead up to the future day of the Lord, which is the literal 24 hour day during which Jesus will return.

Yes, I know! In your unbiblical opinion the day of the Lord consists only of the day of the Lord the New Testament speaks of. In this you completely ignore the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell would be a day/time of both blessings and judgment!

You're just a robot repeating the same false accusation over and over again. This is clearly a complete waste of time. As for the day of the Lord consisting of both blessings and judgment, I don't say otherwise. The day of the Lord is the day of Christ's return. Obviously, there will be blessings for believers on that day and judgment for unbelievers.

 

[rwb]

You have no ability to understand that Paul and Peter had the correct understanding of the day of the Lord and that talked about it as a future day when Jesus will come and bring "sudden destruction" by fire upon those who are in spiritual darkness and "they shall not escape". There's no question that they would have been familiar with Joel 2 and, yet, their understanding of the day of the Lord doesn't match yours. Why not just trust that they knew what they were talking about instead of changing their words?

I have no problem understanding how Paul and Peter were both looking in these last days for the last day of the Lord the prophets foretold would come, to come to an end. Of course, they focus on the last day of the Lord because they had been alive to see the day of the Lord that came when Christ came to earth a man. The Old Covenant prophets OTOH foretell not only what would happen at the end of the day of the Lord that was to come in these last days, but also ALL that was ordained to come to pass during this age/time/day of the Lord or these last days. Why not just trust they knew what they were talking about instead of focusing only on the last day of the Lord when the Lord shall come again?

It is only in understanding the prophets of Old wrote of ALL that would come when the day of the Lord came, that we are better able to know the prophesies speak of spiritual and not physical fulfillment for much of what they prophesy. Many try to force a physical fulfillment on the prophecies, and for that reason there are so many differing eschatological POV that it literally boggles the mind!

Frankly, I really don't care if your mind is changed by anything I say! I only continue ad nauseum to reply to you because I would hate to think my silence caused anyone to stumble in doctrine.

Yes. And? The day of the Lord is the day of the Lord Jesus's return. He will return on the day that the seventh and last trumpet sounds, which will be the last day of world history.

NO, it isn't! The last day of the Lord you are so preoccupied with will not come until AFTER Satan's little season. The seventh angel begins to sound in these days not that ALL time is finished, but time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God is heaven is! IOW the thousand years symbolizing time given the Church is finished. That's why John writes "the mystery of God should be finished." What it the mystery if not the completion of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven after the last Gentile has been saved?

That's right! Hello? Are you still not awake? On that day, Jesus will come down from heaven. That's the day of His return. Time will end right after Jesus brings down fire on the entire earth resulting in "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape".

See how confused you are? First you say Jesus will come down from heaven and time shall be no longer. Then you say this is the day of His return. What about Satan's little season?

You appear to have no idea of what you're talking about. Do you not believe that Jesus returns on the day when the seventh and last trumpet sounds? What do you think will happen when the last trumpet sounds? You can read 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Revelation 11:15-18 to find out.

Why does John write that time shall be no longer in the DAY(S) the seventh angel begins to sound? The last/seventh trumpet is not limited to the last day when time given the Church shall end. The last/seventh trumpet consists of DAY(S), not a single day as you assume. In that day/age/time the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, Satan is given a little season, the saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, Judgment of fire comes down to burn up this earth, the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of our God, and when the last day/age/time has come there shall be a resurrection of ALL the dead in the graves, the GWTJ, and the new heaven and new earth and whatever else I may have unintentionally left out.

Okay, this explains some things. You are misinterpreting this passage. That is talking about the days PRECEDING and leading up to the day that the seventh trumpet sounds, which is the day that Christ returns. Do you not think that the seventh trumpet is the same as the last trumpet? What do you think, that the changing of our bodies to become immortal at the last trumpet will take multiple days instead of happening instantly, as Paul taught?

If you want to be taken seriously, prove what you allege or it remains your opinion, and nothing more!

LOL. You keep saying this nonsense. The day of the Lord is the last day. Time doesn't end before that day, time will end when that day's events are completed.

If it's nonsense you should be able to biblically PROVE why you think it nonsense! But you can't prove what you allege, so why should I believe you?

So, you apparently don't think anyone can be saved during Satan's little season. I disagree with that.

OF COURSE NOT! You should understand by now that I don't really care whether you disagree or not! You think I should simply believe what you cannot prove. All who are left on the earth during Satan's little season will either be caught up or burned up.

2 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

 

[TribulationSigns]

See how confused you are? First you say Jesus will come down from heaven and time shall be no longer. Then you say this is the day of His return.

I know, right?

What about Satan's little season?

Yeah, according To Christ's instructions. Watching equates to "SEEING!" Not the ability of seeing physical events, but rather spiritually discerned of what the judgment of the church looks like as a sign.

Matthew 24:40-43

• Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
• Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
• Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Watch, so that Christ does not come upon you as a thief in the night. Why won’t He come upon us like a thief?
Because we are watching—awake, alert, and spiritually sober—unlike the many who will be spiritually asleep.

Christ gave us a picture of this when the Apostles could not stay awake with Him for even "one hour" but fell asleep as He was betrayed. That physical event illustrates a spiritual truth concerning the church during the little season: those who do not watch will be caught unaware.

If we are watching, then we will see the thief coming to break into the house. This refers to Christ’s judgment on the church, not the final day for the world. First, He comes spiritually and invisibly to judge His house after releasing Satan for a little season as a judgment. AND THEN, at the Second Coming, He comes visibly to judge the whole world.

Selah.

1st Thessalonians 5:2-7

• For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
• For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
• But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
• Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
• Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
• For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night."

This passage is not describing the Last Day. It is not about world peace. Instead, Paul is addressing professing Christians, including false prophets and false Christs, who continue to claim that we still live in a “day of salvation” and are safe in God's House - - a time of spiritual “peace and safety” - - during the Great Tribulation, the little season of Satan.

God is speaking about His unfaithful people—those who do not want to hear that the church has become offensive, unfaithful, and detestable before Him. Hearing the truth would require real repentance: changing their lifestyles, turning from worldliness, and abandoning false doctrines. But they refuse.

Just as in ancient Israel, they demand teachers who speak pleasant things—messages like “God loves you” without repentance or holiness. They want prophets who declare “peace and safety” while winking at sin (Jeremiah 6:14–15). But there is no peace, no true gospel, only an illusion.

This is the time of the Gentiles within the church—a period when the unsaved rule in the outward congregation. This is the rise of the man of sin within the house of God. Yet the elect, the true children of light, can see it, and they depart from the churches God is judging. It is a sign for the Elect that they will "know" that Christ's visibly coming is near.

Therefore, the Day of the Lord is not one day event. It begins with the judgment of God’s own congregation—the apostasy and the abomination of desolation set up in the churches—and continues until the visible Second Coming of Christ.

The Children of the light are the Elect and therefore they "see" and recognize spiritual desolation standing in the church. They know when to stay, when to flee, and when a congregation has fallen into judgment. They discern this by observing the signs of Christ’s return.

Luke 21:25-28
(25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
(27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Clearly, these signs are NOT a one-day event. For example, The “powers of heaven” being shaken refers to the spiritual breakdown of the visible New Testament church (kingdom of heaven), which has become spiritually like Sodom and Egypt - - no longer representing the true Kingdom of God, just as Old Testament Israel fell at the Cross.

This corresponds to the symbolic hour of judgment upon unfaithful church where the man of sin rules. Once this hour of judgment is complete, "AND THEN" the Lord appears visibly at the last trump...on the Last Day. The Elect understand this because they compare Scripture with Scripture, not because they follow sensational headlines or popular end-times teachers.

 

[Davy]

At the time the prophecy was given, what you believe was the beginning of the day of the Lord was not literally near at hand since that prophecy was written hundreds of years before Christ came. So, I'm not sure why you want to take that so literally when it talks about the day of the Lord being near at hand.

Another thing it says early in Joel 2 is that the day of the Lord is "a day of darkness and gloominess". To me, that fits the description given by Paul of the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night to bring "sudden destruction" upon those who are in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape". How exactly does your understanding of the day of the Lord fit the description of it being "a day of darkness and gloominess"?

Also, when it comes to passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 that refer to the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, you don't take those literally like you do the text talking about the day of the Lord being at hand because you say they are referring to the last day of the Lord rather than to the day of the Lord itself. So, I'm not seeing a consistency there when it comes to when you decide to take the text literally or not.

Regardless, I'm not sure that all of this matters much. Whether you call the NT time period of the first coming of Christ up to the second coming of Christ "the last days" or "the day of the Lord" or both, what difference does it really make? We agree that the last days began long ago with the first coming of Christ and we agree that the last day of world history will be the day that Jesus returns to gather His own to Himself and to bring destruction and wrath upon His enemies while putting an end to sin and death once and for all. After which He will judge all people and then have His people inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the earth in the form of the eternal new heavens and new earth while all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire. We agree on all that, so a disagreement about the meaning of the term "the day of the Lord" pales in comparison to all of that. So, I'm fine to just agree to disagree on the topic of how the term "the day of the Lord" should be defined.

It does matter, a lot. That because 'specific' Bible prophecies are given in connection with the final day of this present world when Jesus returns. Lot of talk about the "day of the Lord" without a solid foundation that it means the day of Christ's future 2nd coming cancels the terrible speculations that Preterists and Amillennialists have, trying to move the "day of the Lord" backwards to the time of Christ's 1st coming, or even back to Old Testament times, which both is error. And if the Pre-trib theories isn't bad enough, with where it tries to place that "day of the Lord" to mean the time of "great tribulation", I mean whew!!! enough already.

 

[Davy]

It matters because you are aligning your doctrine with that of Premillennialism. You continue to argue the day of the Lord the prophets foretell is the final day of the Lord the New Testament writes is when Christ comes again. You've argued that you don't see the day of the Lord linked with the last days, but now it doesn't matter to you?

He's not the only one here that disagrees with the doctrine of men you're following. I disagree strongly too. The Bible is not revealing what you are saying about the time of the "day of the Lord".

When Apostle Paul preached about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" per 1 Thessalonians 5, the "sudden destruction" event he mentioned that will happen on that day comes from what the Old Testament prophets were given to prophesy about the "day of the Lord". Paul wasn't teaching that from the New Covenant perspective, he was teaching it from the Old Testament prophets! And he was showing it is specifically an event to happen on the last day of this world in connection with Christ's 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14 also shows a solid connection with the "day of the Lord" happening on the day of Christ's future 2nd coming, with Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. So there exists direct... connections of the Old Testament "day of the Lord" with Christ's future 2nd coming.

 

[Davy]

I know, right?



Yeah, according To Christ's instructions. Watching equates to "SEEING!"

Matthew 24:40-43

• Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
• Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
• Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Watch, so that Christ does not come upon you as a thief in the night. Why won’t He come upon us like a thief?
Because we are watching—awake, alert, and spiritually sober—unlike the many who will be spiritually asleep.

Christ gave us a picture of this when the Apostles could not stay awake with Him for even "one hour" but fell asleep as He was betrayed. That physical event illustrates a spiritual truth concerning the church during the little season: those who do not watch will be caught unaware.

If we are watching, then we will see the thief coming to break into the house. This refers to Christ’s judgment on the church, not the final day for the world. First, He comes spiritually and invisibly to judge His house after releasing Satan for a little season as a judgment. AND THEN, at the Second Coming, He comes visibly to judge the whole world.

Selah.

1st Thessalonians 5:2-7

• For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
• For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
• But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
• Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
• Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
• For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night."

This passage is not describing the Last Day. It is not about world peace. Instead, Paul is addressing professing Christians, including false prophets and false Christs, who continue to claim that we still live in a “day of salvation” and are safe in God's House - - a time of spiritual “peace and safety” - - during the Great Tribulation, the little season of Satan.

God is speaking about His unfaithful people—those who do not want to hear that the church has become offensive, unfaithful, and detestable before Him. Hearing the truth would require real repentance: changing their lifestyles, turning from worldliness, and abandoning false doctrines. But they refuse.

Just as in ancient Israel, they demand teachers who speak pleasant things—messages like “God loves you” without repentance or holiness. They want prophets who declare “peace and safety” while winking at sin (Jeremiah 6:14–15). But there is no peace, no true gospel, only an illusion.

This is the time of the Gentiles within the church—a period when the unsaved rule in the outward congregation. This is the rise of the man of sin within the house of God. Yet the elect, the true children of light, can see it, and they depart from the churches God is judging. It is a sign for the Elect that they will "know" that Christ's visibly coming is near.

Therefore, the Day of the Lord is not one day event. It begins with the judgment of God’s own congregation—the apostasy and the abomination of desolation set up in the churches—and continues until the visible Second Coming of Christ.

The Children of the light are the Elect and therefore they "see" and recognize spiritual desolation standing in the church. They know when to stay, when to flee, and when a congregation has fallen into judgment. They discern this by observing the signs of Christ’s return.

Luke 21:25-28
(25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
(27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Clearly, these signs are NOT a one-day event. For example, The “powers of heaven” being shaken refers to the spiritual breakdown of the visible New Testament church (kingdom of heaven), which has become spiritually like Sodom and Egypt - - no longer representing the true Kingdom of God, just as Old Testament Israel fell at the Cross.

This corresponds to the symbolic hour of judgment upon unfaithful church where the man of sin rules. Once this hour of judgment is complete, "AND THEN" the Lord appears visibly at the last trump...on the Last Day. The Elect understand this because they compare Scripture with Scripture, not because they follow sensational headlines or popular end-times teachers.

Only one... time of Christ's future coming, not two.

Christ's judging His Church first like Peter said involves His gathering of His 'faithful' Church, His elect who will reign with Him. That is an event that also takes place on the "day of the Lord". And He kind of showed this with those who claim to have followed Him but they did iniquity, and He tells them He never knew them, to get away from Him (Matt.7; Matt.25 with the five foolish virgins).

 

[Davy]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Don't be fooled by rwb and Spiritual Israelite's foolish argument about when the "day of the Lord" will happen. Neither one of them are actually following what Bible Scripture easily reveals when it will be. So one must needs ask themselves why... are they arguing so far away... from what The Bible actually says about it as written? There are many deceived, and decievers here, as also on most Christian forums.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Only one... time of Christ's future coming, not two.

Not true.

There are the Day of the Lord for each of His congregation, whether Israel of Old or the Church of New, depending on the context. For example:

Joel 3:15-16

• "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
• The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel."

The end result was that the Lord cleansed the blood of people that He had not cleansed (Gentiles), and the New Testament church was established. The stars didn't literally/physically withdraw their shining or fall from the heavens; this all indicated the darkness in apostasy that was in Old Testament congregation as the messengers of God fell away from Him, and their Kingdom representative was taken (Matthew 21:42-43) from them. It is God's definition of signs, not the false teachers' definition.

Acts 2:16-21

• "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
• And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
• And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
• And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
• The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
• And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Did the moon literally/physically turn into blood? Was there physical fire and smoke? The answer, of course, is no. And yet this was the fulfillment of the signs prophesied in Joel of the fall of the Old Testament congregation.

Likewise, there is another Day of the Lord for the New Testament congregation when the church falls away from God in THIS SAME WAY, these same signs show themselves. The Sun being dark, the moon not giving her light, and the stars falling from heaven. The smoke out of burning furnace arose from the bottomless pit with smoke locusts coming to set woman on fire and make her spiritually naked. These are the SIGNS of the apostasy, the falling away, the fall of what is spiritually Babylon, Revelation 18.

1st Peter 4:17

• "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

Contrary to what some professed Christians believe about a church never being judged or there is only one Day of the Lord, all must pass under the judgment of God, and God's own household first (just as He did with the Old Testament congregation Israel, because we are no better). And when this judgment is finished, Lord Jesus Christ shall appear in the air.

Selah.

 

[Davy]

Not true.

There are the Day of the Lord for each of His congregation, whether Israel of Old or the Church of New, depending on the context. For example:

Joel 3:15-16

• "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
• The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel."

The end result was that the Lord cleansed the blood of people that He had not cleansed (Gentiles), and the New Testament church was established. The stars didn't literally/physically withdraw their shining or fall from the heavens; this all indicated the darkness in apostasy that was in Old Testament congregation as the messengers of God fell away from Him, and their Kingdom representative was taken (Matthew 21:42-43) from them. It is God's definition of signs, not the false teachers' definition.

Nah... you are trying to apply a modern-day Jewish theory about today's nation state of Israel, treating it as if God has already saved Israel, when that couldn't be any farther from the Truth.

That Joel 3 passage is about the day of Christ's future 2nd coming. It has yet... to happen.

Have you even read... The New Testament Scriptures that give more detail of that Joel timing?

Isa 13:9-13
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in His going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.
KJV

Matt 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV

Luke 21:25-27
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
KJV

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV