The Great Tribulation Began in 70AD and Continues to This Very Day

[CTK]

Where in Scripture does it say that blindness in part shall be removed from unbelieving Israel after the last Gentile has been grafted into the same good olive tree with Israel of faith? I find Scripture repeatedly saying only the "remnant" of them shall be saved.

Part 2

As Paul closes his great discussion in Romans 11, he looks forward to a day when Israel’s partial blindness is finally removed and God’s mercy is displayed in a new and stunning way. I believe Revelation’s picture of the 144,000 fits right into that moment. At the end of the times of the Gentiles, God will open the eyes of a chosen Jewish remnant in a way very similar to what He did with Paul on the road to Damascus. Just as Paul was stopped, confronted by the risen Jesus, and had both his physical and spiritual sight restored, so this group—sealed and set apart—will suddenly recognize the One they have pierced (Zechariah 12:10) and realize that the crucified and risen Jesus truly is their Messiah.

In that moment, their story turns from blindness to testimony. Like Paul, who went from persecutor to preacher almost overnight (Acts 9), these restored sons and daughters of Israel will go out into the world proclaiming the Good News with a clarity and power that shakes everything around them. Revelation portrays the 144,000 as servants of God, sealed and faithful, standing with the Lamb and following Him wherever He goes (Revelation 7; 14). In the framework you are working with, this remnant becomes the visible fulfillment of God’s promise that “all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26). Their mission unfolds over a final period of 3.5 years, during which they bear witness to Jesus in the midst of intense opposition and global upheaval (I believe this is the time of the great tribulation period -3.5 final years).

 

[CTK]

Where in Scripture does it say that blindness in part shall be removed from unbelieving Israel after the last Gentile has been grafted into the same good olive tree with Israel of faith? I find Scripture repeatedly saying only the "remnant" of them shall be saved.

Part 3

These 3.5 years are not an unfinished fragment of the 70 weeks of Daniel. The seventy weeks—those 490 years—have already done their work: they brought us to the arrival of the Messiah, His ministry, His cross, and the confirming of the new covenant. That prophetic clock has fully run its course. But there is another clock in the background of your reading—the great Jubilee cycle that began with the same starting point in 457 BC. In this view, the fourth and final Great Jubilee’s “countdown” stopped at the cross, right at the midpoint of that last 7-year segment. The work of atonement was finished at Calvary, but the Jubilee clock, so to speak, still has 3.5 symbolic years remaining.

When God removes Israel’s blindness at the end of the times of the Gentiles, those remaining “3.5 years” of the Great Jubilee are finally lived out. The restored Jewish remnant, represented by the 144,000, enters into a worldwide ministry that completes the picture: the same nation that once rejected its Messiah now proclaims Him to the ends of the earth. Only after this final witness, when the Jubilee cycle has reached its intended conclusion, does the story reach its true climax—the return of the Messiah, the restoration of all things, and the gathering of Jew and Gentile together as one redeemed people in His presence forever.

 

[covenantee]

I consider all those verses, and passages yet understand the AOD was the crucifixion of Christ. I don't deny Christ warned Israel of their impending destruction, but that was not that they might believe the abomination that brought them to utter desolation would be with the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD. The city and Temple of Old had become an abomination unto God well before the first advent of Christ. And Israel of faith began to understand this after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. But it would not be until the literal destruction that they would fully understand that God had brought the Old Covenant ceremonial and sacrificial Levitical system to a complete and total end FOREVER.

I don't disagree with those; but when the Judaean Christians physically witnessed the Roman armies advancing on Jerusalem, they recognized them as the "abomination of desolation" of which Jesus had warned years previously, and they acted upon that warning, and fled, and survived.

If they had not, they would have remained where they were, and ultimately perished.

Jesus intended for them to understand the meaning of "abomination of desolation", and they did.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't disagree with those; but when the Judaean Christians physically witnessed the Roman armies advancing on Jerusalem, they recognized them as the "abomination of desolation" of which Jesus had warned years previously, and they acted upon that warning, and fled, and survived.

If they had not, they would have remained where they were, and ultimately perished.

Jesus intended for them to understand the meaning of "abomination of desolation", and they did.

So what exactly made the Roman army abominable? What Scriptures in the OT or NT support that armies used by God are abominations? I haven't noticed anything in other Scriptures connecting armies with abominations. Therefore, can you point out some examples I may have missed?

 

[covenantee]

So what exactly made the Roman army abominable? What Scriptures in the OT or NT support that armies used by God are abominations? I haven't noticed anything in other Scriptures connecting armies with abominations. Therefore, can you point out some examples I may have missed?

Adam Clarke:
The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luke 21:20, Luke 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mark 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

Albert Barnes:

"The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Lu, xxi. 20. The Roman army is further called the abomination on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honours" (Matthew p. 254)

C.H. Spurgeon:

This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw �the abomination of desolation,� that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, �stand in the holy place,� they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains. (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. . p. 215).

 

[David in NJ]

@Earburner @CTK @rwb @Davidpt @amigo de christo @LoveYeshua @Ronald Nolette @Keiw

The Jews/Israel absolutely are all 'sold-out' against their MESSIAH and therefore they are seeking to build a 3rd temple.

Keep this in your heart/mind = Romans 10:1-4

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

Israel's desire and plans to build a 3rd temple is "their seeking to establish their own righteousness"

For us who dwell in CHRIST = Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

 

[ewq1938]

I can tell you most emphatically, that KJV Dan. 9:26-27 is definitely speaking about Jesus and no one else!!

I have already proven that to be false. It is about the Prince that comes and does these terrible things. Context and Grammar matter, usually anyways.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes!! The answer is: Jesus took away the "daily sacrifice", by the holy Sacrifice of Himself!!

Nope. It continued for decades after the cross.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, it does cause them to WANT to rebuild their temple, but KJV Dan 9:27 says that God forbids it:
[27].....he shall make it [the temple] desolate, even until the consummation [the end of time],......

Except you are adding temple to the verse. That's known as eisegesis.

 

[ewq1938]

The Great Tribulation began when Adam ate the fruit.

No, that is not related at all to the GT Christ spoke about, who also said it would be SHORTENED which means taking something of a certain length and making it less time. You have made the GT LONGER by thousands of years. False teachings everywhere! It's painfully easy to see how the Apostasy happens to the church/Christians. They are easily deceived.

 

[Scott Downey]

@Earburner @CTK @rwb @Davidpt @amigo de christo @LoveYeshua @Ronald Nolette

The Jews/Israel absolutely are all 'sold-out' against their MESSIAH and therefore they are seeking to build a 3rd temple.

Keep this in your heart/mind = Romans 10:1-4

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

Israel's desire and plans to build a 3rd temple is "their seeking to establish their own righteousness"

For us who dwell in CHRIST = Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

"have not submitted to the righteousness of God."
Correct, they remain in rebellion, against the Holy Spirit.
And most of them always were against Him.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 7 - New King James Version

Stephen’s Address: The Call of Abraham - Then the high priest said, “Are these things so?” And he said, “Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran, and said to him, ‘Get out of your country and from your...

www.biblegateway.com

Israel Rebels Against God​

37 “This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him[d] you shall hear.’

38 “This is he who was in the [e]congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles[f] to give to us, 39 whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, 40 saying to Aaron, ‘Make us gods to go before us; as for this Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.’ 41 And they made a calf in those days, offered sacrifices to the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. 42 Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets:

‘Did you offer Me slaughtered animals and sacrifices during forty years in the wilderness,
O house of Israel?
43 You also took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
And the star of your god Remphan,
Images which you made to worship;
And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.’

God’s True Tabernacle​

44 “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, 45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David, 46 who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built Him a house.

48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:

49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’

Israel Resists the Holy Spirit​

51 “You stiff-necked[g] and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Stephen the Martyr​

54 When they heard these things they were [h]cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 3 - New King James Version

The Son Was Faithful - Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. For this One has been counted worthy of more glory...

www.biblegateway.com

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Failure of the Wilderness Wanderers​

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[covenantee]

I have already proven that to be false. It is about the Prince that comes and does these terrible things. Context and Grammar matter, usually anyways.

For some reason you don't recognize that the grammar points to the only Prince in the passage.

Messiah the Prince.

 

[quietthinker]

No, that is not related at all to the GT Christ spoke about, who also said it would be SHORTENED which means taking something of a certain length and making it less time. You have made the GT LONGER by thousands of years. False teachings everywhere! It's painfully easy to see how the Apostasy happens to the church/Christians. They are easily deceived.

Yes, the history of the World will be shortened. This does not mean to say there won't be a time of trouble as never was just before Jesus returns. It will be tribulation alright....an intense time at the end 'packaged' if you like in the collective misery of 6000 years of sin.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, the history of the World will be shortened.

No, you are changing the verse. It says the GT will be shortened because otherwise no flesh would survive.

This does not mean to say there won't be a time of trouble as never was just before Jesus returns. It will be tribulation alright....an intense time at the end 'packaged' if you like in the collective misery of 6000 years of sin.

That also is not scriptural.

 

[Earburner]

Nope. It continued for decades after the cross.

7 decades to be exact!! In Dan. 9:27

1. [27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Earburner]

Except you are adding temple to the verse. That's known as eisegesis.

No, it's called interpretation by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

7 decades to be exact!! In Dan. 9:27

It was less than 40 years from the cross to AD70

 

[ewq1938]

No, it's called interpretation by the Holy Spirit.

Not when it's wrong, like your 7 decades nonsense.

 

[rwb]

Part 1

If you sit with Romans 11 for a while, you can almost hear Paul trying to hold two truths together at the same time: God has not abandoned Israel, and God is showing incredible mercy to the Gentiles. Right in the middle of that, he introduces the ideas you’re asking about: “blindness in part,” the “fullness of the Gentiles,” and the promise that “all Israel will be saved.” Paul calls this a “mystery” and says he doesn’t want us to be ignorant of it:

“For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion: that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.’” (Romans 11:25–27)​

Here Paul says very plainly that Israel’s blindness is partial, not total, and that it has an “until” attached to it. It lasts until “the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” Only then does he speak of “all Israel” being saved, and he bases this on Old Testament promises about God turning away ungodliness from Jacob and taking away their sins.

Earlier in the chapter he uses the image of an olive tree to explain what is happening. The tree itself represents the people of God rooted in His covenant promises. Some of the natural branches (unbelieving Jews) have been broken off. Wild branches (Gentiles who believe in Christ) have been grafted in among the natural branches and now share the same root and fatness of the olive tree. Paul warns the Gentile believers not to boast, because they “do not support the root, but the root supports” them (Romans 11:18). He also says that if God did not spare the natural branches because of unbelief, He will not spare arrogant Gentile branches either. And then he adds this crucial line:

“And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” (Romans 11:23)​

Charlie, to understand all that Paul tells us regarding Israel, we must consider everything Paul says regarding them of Israel who are children of the flesh and those who are children of the promise.

Romans 11:1-5 (KJV) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul writes that even from the Old Covenant body God reserved only seven thousand men (remnant) for Himself. In Paul's day that had not changed because there was still only the remnant according to election of grace whom God had reserved. This shows us why only part from Israel is in blindness still and shall be in blindness until the last Gentile to be saved has been saved. Only those of Israel in unbelief are in blindness still, but never was the whole nation in blindness because there has always been an elect remnant according to grace who were/are of faith.

Of course, Israel of the flesh being of the same biological seed of Abraham Paul desires they ALL be saved; however, Paul is not a dispensationalist. Going back to chapter 9 Paul tells us that belonging to Abraham's biological seeds will NOT save them. Even though Paul's kinsmen of Old are called Israelites having the promises of God, adoption, glory, covenants, giving of the law, and the promises, whose fathers from whom Christ came of the flesh are not all saved, because the majority of them died in unbelief.

Romans 9:3-5 (KJV) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Why did all but the remnant according to election of grace die in unbelief if all the promises of God were to them of the flesh? Because, according to Paul being the seed of Abraham according to the flesh does not make them the children of God. The children of promise are not only of the seed of Abraham of the flesh. Only those in Isaac are children of God, the children of promise counted for the seed (Christ).

Romans 9:6-9 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

When the twin sons of Isaac were born God tells us He loved Jacob, but Esau was hated. Why, since they were both born of the same biological seed of flesh & blood? Because being born of flesh is not the way to be loved by God. Only those born again of the supernatural SEED (Christ) from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were ordained to be saved from before they were born. This is truth not only for Israel but also for whosoever among mankind that shall be saved.

Romans 9:13 (KJV) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Malachi 1:2-3 (KJV) I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Paul, a man of God was familiar with Israel's beginnings. In Romans he shows why Israel of the flesh is twofold through the two sons born of the seed of Abraham, through Isaac. Which is why he quoted the prophet, showing that some called Israel after the flesh are not the sons of God, and shall never be the sons of God. Because only the one son (Isaac) shall be the stronger, and the elder son (Esau) shall serve the younger.

Genesis 25:21-23 (KJV) And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Genesis 24:60 (KJV) And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

We know why Paul says Israel is in blindness only in part, because there has always been a remnant of them from the beginning who would be called the sons of God. It is the sons of God who are true Israel according to grace through faith. It is they whom Paul writes are of the election, the rest were spiritually speaking blinded. The part of Israel in blindness, like Gentiles in unbelief can still be saved. If they are saved before time given this earth for man to be saved comes to an end. Because time, not only for Israel, but for ALL mankind is finished when the fullness of the Gentiles to be saved have been saved. Once the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete through the fullness of the Gentiles, then ALL Israel according to faith shall be saved. Not Israelites according to the flesh, but Israel of God who are neither Jew nor Gentile but all the children of God.

Galatians 6:12-16 (KJV) As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.