How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?
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OK
Some on these threads think they can know Koine Greek just by using the lexicons.
Take away means to remove from the vine.
The branches that do not bear fruit, get taken away.
Prune means to cut in such a way as to allow the branch to make more fruit...
it does NOT get taken away but remains on the vine.
It's Jesus using a vine and branches to speak of Himself and us.
Sharped or cut away, but the next verb does not mean prune, though it used only 2 times in Stephanus' TR. It might be Scriveners' TR in the BLB.
I don't know the sources you've posted.
I do see that when we prune a tree it makes more fruit.
And if a branch is dead,,,it gets removed from the tree.
You could reply, but I'm shutting down till tomorrow...
Wait... you don't believe the end is coming soon? That is interesting.
Yes, Jesus said that we wouldn't know 'the day or hour', but He gave signs to look for. (Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13) Signs
that started being fulfilled in 1914.
Jesus said to "keep in expectation" for His return. "Keep on the watch." (Matthew 24:42) But you know this.
In fact, Jesus indicated in Matthew 24:48, that it would be a wicked slave who would say, "My Master is delaying", and then act wickedly.
Have a good night.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
That’s not really a response David....are you going to disagree with me scripturally?
You are welcome to disagree on any particular point.....but please substantiate it with Scripture.
We can discuss.....
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You are behaving like someone backed into a corner.....questions are a good way to determine what a person believes and why they believe it.....this is a Bible discussion site after all, and it is not my intention to have you become so defensive that you feel threatened and reply the way you have.
A debate on any Bible topic is for the benefit of all who want to read it.....readers can evaluate beliefs and activities of those who profess to be Christians....and make decisions for themselves about what they hear. There are many more readers here than posters....we owe them at least a civil exchange.
This is the forum to discuss “unorthodox” topics....OK?
Logos in the Gospel of John
The leading use of logos in its unique sense occurs in the opening chapter of John’s Gospel. This chapter introduces the idea that Jesus is the Word: the Word that existed prior to creation, the Word that exists in connection to God, the Word that is God, and the Word that became human, cohabited with people, and possessed a glory that can only be described as the glory of God (John 1:1
, 14
). As the Gospel of John never uses logos in this unique, technical manner again after the first chapter, and never explicitly says that the logos is Jesus, many have speculated that the Word-prologue predates the Gospel in the form of an earlier hymn or liturgy.2 However, there is little evidence for this, and attempts to recreate the hymn are highly speculative.3 While there is a multitude of theories for why the Gospel writer selected the logos concept-word, the clear emphasis of the opening of the Gospel and entrance of the Word into the world is cosmological, reflecting the opening of Genesis 1.
What Does the Greek Word “Logos” Mean?
The Greek word logos simply means “word.” However, there are many other uses and debated meanings of logos in the Bible and Greek literature.
www.logos.com
The Meaning of 'Logos' in the Prologue of John's Gospel
Consideration of the Hellenistic background for the word LOGOS in John's Gospel.
www.bible-researcher.com
The Logos of God - St. John Declares that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Logos
In order to arrive at the Logos of God, St. John brought the Greek concept of logos into harmony with the new creation that Jesus Christ
socratesjourney.org
Logos | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
Ligonier Ministries, founded by R.C. Sproul, exists to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible.
learn.ligonier.org
What is the Logos? | GotQuestions.org
What is the Logos? Why does the Bible use the term Logos to refer to both the Bible and to Jesus Christ?
www.gotquestions.org
The main LOGOS in John's theology is still the Father. The son is secondary.Logos in the Gospel of John
The leading use of logos in its unique sense occurs in the opening chapter of John’s Gospel. This chapter introduces the idea that Jesus is the Word: the Word that existed prior to creation, the Word that exists in connection to God, the Word that is God, and the Word that became human, cohabited with people, and possessed a glory that can only be described as the glory of God (John 1:1
As the Gospel of John never uses logos in this unique, technical manner again after the first chapter, and never explicitly says that the logos is Jesus, many have speculated that the Word-prologue predates the Gospel in the form of an earlier hymn or liturgy.2 However, there is little evidence for this, and attempts to recreate the hymn are highly speculative.3 While there is a multitude of theories for why the Gospel writer selected the logos concept-word, the clear emphasis of the opening of the Gospel and entrance of the Word into the world is cosmological, reflecting the opening of Genesis 1.
What Does the Greek Word “Logos” Mean?
The Greek word logos simply means “word.” However, there are many other uses and debated meanings of logos in the Bible and Greek literature.The Meaning of 'Logos' in the Prologue of John's Gospel
Consideration of the Hellenistic background for the word LOGOS in John's Gospel.www.bible-researcher.comThe Logos of God - St. John Declares that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Logos
In order to arrive at the Logos of God, St. John brought the Greek concept of logos into harmony with the new creation that Jesus Christsocratesjourney.orgLogos | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
Ligonier Ministries, founded by R.C. Sproul, exists to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible.What is the Logos? | GotQuestions.org
What is the Logos? Why does the Bible use the term Logos to refer to both the Bible and to Jesus Christ?www.gotquestions.org
In the beginning, it was a word, and a word it was with a God, and the God it was. A word another it was in the beginning with a God.
Cyprian quotes 1 John 5:7 in the year 250 A.D.
CHURCH FATHERS: Treatise 1 (Cyprian of Carthage)
Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.
"The Lord warns, saying, "He who is not with me scattereth." He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathereth elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, "I and the Father are one;" and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," And these three are one."
Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God
For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.
The Johannine Comma of 1 John 5:7-8: Added or Removed? - Berean Patriot
Of all the passages in the Bible, few have caused as much controversy as 1 John 5:7-8. There is a clause present in the KJV and a few other translations that most modern bibles don't include. This clause is so controversial, it even has it's own name: the "Johannine Comma". The question is this...
www.bereanpatriot.com
The Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 — Historical Evidence and the Church Tradition | Church Blog
The Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 — Historical Evidence and the Church Tradition. Find out about it in our monastery blog. We have been writing about Christianity, church history, church products and crafts, the lives of the great ascetics, etc.
catalog.obitel-minsk.com
Cyprian: A Third Century Witness to the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 - Text and Translation
www.textandtranslation.org
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Mysteries (St. Ambrose)
Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Holy Spirit, Book I (Ambrose)
Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The son is always secondary to the Father in all things....he never once elevated himself to be equal to his God and Father....and stated clearly that what he taught was not of his own initiative, but everything was from his Father...the one who “sent” him. (John 7:14-16; John 8:42)
We first of all have to understand what it means where the Logos is said to have been “in the beginning with God”, stated twice by John in verses 1 & 2.
Since God, Yahweh is an eternal,Being, he did not have a “beginning”. So what is this the “beginning” of?
Revelation 3:12 answers that question....
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.” (ESV)
Jesus is called “the Amen” because he is the guarantee of all of God’s promises. He is also his Father’s greatest Witness, as his whole ministry revolved around teaching others about his God and Father.
So, the meaning if the word “logos” covers a wide range of applications....
Strongs defines “logos” as....
of speech
- a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
- what someone has said
- a word
- the sayings of God
- decree, mandate or order
- of the moral precepts given by God
- Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
- what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim”
So calling Jesus by that title, basically meant that Jesus spoke God’s words, or spoke as his representative.
As the appointed “mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) Jesus’ role as God’s spokesman was invaluable. As no sinful human can come before God, Jesus is the ‘bridge’ or “go between”, who intercedes on our behalf so that we can still communicate with our God through him.
The teaching of the trinity makes that role redundant because if Jesus is God, we would need a mediator between us and him as well.....
So the logos could become flesh and communicate with sinful humans because he was the divine “son of God” appointed to act on our behalf, as well to act on behalf of his Father. The trinity loses sight of his role as “mediator” who is the one appointed to bring about reconciliation between two estranged parties.....he therefore cannot be one of the parties.
He is also the sacrifice that facilitates forgiveness of our sins, leading to everlasting life.
As God is immortal, he cannot die, so he “sent” his son to die instead of us.
The trinity just messes up a fairly simple exchange that God arranged to rescue us from the rebellion that took place in Eden, that is what robbed us of the life that God planned for us at the beginning.....Jesus came to get it back for us....(Rev 21:2-4) The greatest act of love ever offered to mankind.....
Not complicated at all.
AI might be causing the end to come - in my humble opinion.
But I can't say this for sure.
Right.
Except I see these signs all throughout history.
Every generation believed the end was near.
Think of the holocaust...if we were alive we certainly would have thought it was the end...
and yet we're still here.
I DO see increasing wickedness...partly due to post modernism and the subjective value/moral system that the young are embracing.
Replied to above.
I'm NEVER backed into a corner.
I just find it difficult to discuss with you...
it's not personal.
You write a lot and I don't have a lot of time here
and you just keep repeating the same over and over
and your HATRED for the CC is most unchristianly.
I dislike reformed/calvinist theolgy and yet I feel no HATRED for that church.
Hatred should not be part of our attitude.
You make silly comments like: The bible was not written in English.
@BreadOfLife is doing a good job of replying to your comments and I leave you to him,,,who has much more stamina than I ever will.
And yes,,, this discussion does belong in the UNORTHODOX FORUM
because JWs IS an unorthodox religon/faith/belief system.
Trinity is a tag used by some who believe as I do that The Father, The Son(in some form), The HS pre-existed Creation
I would say, there was no Trinity before the Incarnation. When the Word (Logos) became flesh.
At the point of Jesus' conception, there was God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It’s more than just a tag...it’s the very foundation upon which Christendom is built....so you can’t just pass it off as something as simple as you said. You have to understand at a very deep level what is taught about these three in the whole Bible, as Jesus and his apostles taught about them.
It is a salvation issue, as Jesus said.....
“And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (ESV)
We have to “know” “the only true God” because the devil is the promoter of false gods who enslave people all over the world. Has he perverted the identity of the “one God” of the Hebrew Scriptures? (Deut 6:4) What a great way to induce people to disobey God....by lying to them.....isn’t this what happened in Eden?
And Jesus said we need to “know” the one whom God “sent”.
So where is the equal third party here? Why don’t we need to “know” the “Holy Spirit” if he is part of who God is?
Who did the apostles collectively say was their “one God”?
1 Cor 8:5-6...
“For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (ESV)
Again..no third party is mentioned.....why? Because in the first century, the trinity did not exist, and was not taught by the apostles. It was a later adoption, introduced by the “weeds” whom Jesus said were sown by the devil, in a counterfeit “Christianity”.
I also believe that the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit pre-existed creation because that is what Scripture teaches....but none of them are presented in the Bible as three parts of one God.
There is not a single Scripture where Jesus or his Father categorically states that they are equal parts of God with the Holy Spirit. If you can find one, I’ll show you with other Scripture that it is a deliberate mistranslation to promote a doctrine....not Bible based truth.
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