Who really created the Son of God?

[JLB]

the Son of God never existed until his creation and birth in Bethlehem as the son of man, of God, of his Father.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


The Son is called God and LORD (YHWH).


He is said to have created the heavens and the earth.

• “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

 

[Nancy]

@HealthyShape @David Lamb @JLB @Nancy

God the Father, one person, made his one-of-a-kind only son. He also held power over his Son's miracles and words. He gave them through his own word (logos) and Spirit, working via or through his Son. The Father owns the authority, word, and spirit of life. The Son just carries(ed) them as the agent for his Father's will and the execution of his plan.

Seeing Scripture this way, you'll see Yeshua as a chosen man, a son of man and not a hybrid being (god-man). God anointed him. The Father took hold of this son of man for his word or plan of our salvation.


Only a true human Son of God could get that anointing from God, his Father, the one true God. It marked the Father's Spirit entering him. The Spirit guided him right to the Cross that saves us.


Scripture verses for this post are out there. Check them yourself and hold them as true.

Jesus was NOT created or "made". He is the beginning and the end, the alpha and the omega.
And likewise, "Scripture verses for this post are out there. Check them yourself and hold them as true."

In Him always! Have a good day.

 

[Nancy]

@HealthyShape @David Lamb @JLB @Nancy

God the Father, one person, made his one-of-a-kind only son. He also held power over his Son's miracles and words. He gave them through his own word (logos) and Spirit, working via or through his Son. The Father owns the authority, word, and spirit of life. The Son just carries(ed) them as the agent for his Father's will and the execution of his plan.

Seeing Scripture this way, you'll see Yeshua as a chosen man, a son of man and not a hybrid being (god-man). God anointed him. The Father took hold of this son of man for his word or plan of our salvation.


Only a true human Son of God could get that anointing from God, his Father, the one true God. It marked the Father's Spirit entering him. The Spirit guided him right to the Cross that saves us.


Scripture verses for this post are out there. Check them yourself and hold them as true.

May I ask, why you have tagged me in your post? I'm a trinitarian and have been for over 30 years.

 

[HealthyShape]

@JustMe

It is not about "theologians", but about the standard Greek text of the New Testament. The KJV was based upon medieval, later manuscripts while today's translations are based upon the critical edition of UBS that takes into consideration the oldest manuscripts discovered.

Because reading "the only begotten God" seemed unnatural, some scribe made either a "correction" or a mistake and wrote "the only begotten Son". The earliest copies have "the only begotten God", therefore the change happened later. Your own arguments are a good representation of somebody's inclination to "correct" that "weird" verse - and why the reading "God" is the original one.

 

[JustMe]

I asked a simple question.


Who do you believe Jesus Christ was before He became flesh?


God
Angel
Man
other


I will give my answer, and the scripture from which my answer comes from.


Jesus Christ before He became flesh was God; YHWH


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.


Ok, there’s my answer.



What’s your answer?

Read post # 61 and # 79.....later

 

[JustMe]

Jesus was NOT created or "made". He is the beginning and the end, the alpha and the omega.
And likewise, "Scripture verses for this post are out there. Check them yourself and hold them as true."

In Him always! Have a good day.

Thank you for your comment Nancy. Do you want me to breakdown your response and tell you what scripture says about it, or do you really know what you posted here already? The name or expression of the Son of God associated with his name, Yeshua the Messiah, mean more than just attaching other slogans or catchy phrases to it to maybe draw attention.

Have a great and Blessed Day

 

[JustMe]

May I ask, why you have tagged me in your post? I'm a trinitarian and have been for over 30 years.

Simple, you apparently agree with some of the posters on this thread indicated by your thumbs up symbol. So then I wanted you to stay posted with my replies to them. Evidently it's not necessary as you do read what I post here.

Bye then and still have a great day!

 

[JustMe]

@JustMe

It is not about "theologians", but about the standard Greek text of the New Testament. The KJV was based upon medieval, later manuscripts while today's translations are based upon the critical edition of UBS that takes into consideration the oldest manuscripts discovered.

Because reading "the only begotten God" seemed unnatural, some scribe made either a "correction" or a mistake and wrote "the only begotten Son". The earliest copies have "the only begotten God", therefore the change happened later. Your own arguments are a good representation of somebody's inclination to "correct" that "weird" verse - and why the reading "God" is the original one.

OK, I've considered it.

 

[JLB]

Read post # 61 and # 79.....later

I've read how you have tried to explain away what the scriptures so plainly say.


The truth is, God the Father calls The Son God and LORD (YHWH).


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


He is said to have created the heavens and the earth.

• “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Your statement that Jesus didn't exist before He became a flesh and blood man is blatantly false, and shows you haven't read the bible, nor do you know God.

 

[JustMe]

I've read how you have tried to explain away what the scriptures so plainly say.


The truth is, God the Father calls The Son God and LORD (YHWH).


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


He is said to have created the heavens and the earth.

• “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Your statement that Jesus didn't exist before He became a flesh and blood man is blatantly false, and shows you haven't read the bible, nor do you know God.

"...what the scriptures so plainly say..." I wonder JBL.

Well I see you've added another new scripture. Are you urging me to respond to every new scripture you post me.
So be it.

So, Hebrews 1:8-10 it is. I will work backwards.

Verse 10 speaks of God the Almighty the LORD who created the world and the universe. Yeshua is not God.
This verse is the same as Psalms 102: 25 where the speaker is speaking to YHWH the creator. Christ has nothing to do with either verse Heb 1:10 or Psalms 102:25 where it originated.
(Psa 102:25) Of old, You laid the foundation of the earth, the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Do you notice in verse 9 that it says ....therefore God your God has anointed you.... So you know who the Father God was addressing right? His Messiah. And it was not another God or another person called God either.

Now for verse 8 in much, much more detail. Most love to hang their hat on this verse as their proof-text....

There is much information suggesting that Yeshua is NOT God with his own throne in heaven.

Believers in the Trinity render Hebrews 1:8 this way: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” Thus, they feel that Yeshua is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Why is this not correct?

Look at some of the many counter claims that this rendering is very deceptive and dead wrong.

But first, note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this Psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Yeshua was Almighty God. Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that אלוהים [‘Elo·himʹ, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. Thus, on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”

There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

If we look at some who are said to be respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

Noted trinitarian NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 339.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided honest alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the noted trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ....’”

Quoted From Ps. 45

In addition to these admissions by trinitarian translators concerning Heb. 1:8 itself, we need to look back at the Old Testament Hebrew scripture (Ps. 45:6) that Paul was quoting when he wrote Heb. 1:8.

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides these alternate
readings: “Or your throne is a throne of God, or Thy throne, O God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Message has: "Your throne is God's throne, ever and always.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last
forever and ever.” - ABS, 1976.

The Good News Translation (GNT): “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and
ever.” – ABS, 1992.

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

The NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:
“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 in the NIV Study Bible. [Also see footnote in the NAB, St. Joseph ed.]

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by one of the greatest scholars of Biblical Hebrew of all time, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

Just the admission by so many trinitarian translators (above) that Heb. 1:8 may be honestly translated as it is even in the NWT, makes any insistence by other trinitarians that this scripture is acceptable evidence for a trinity doctrine completely invalid!


JBL: What do you think of this commentary of the scripture you posed, and most probably you have never known its contents before now?

Later then...

 

[JLB]

"...what the scriptures so plainly say..." I wonder JBL.

Well I see you've added another new scripture. Are you urging me to respond to every new scripture you post me.
So be it.

So, Hebrews 1:8-10 it is. I will work backwards.

Verse 10 speaks of God the Almighty the LORD who created the world and the universe. Yeshua is not God.
This verse is the same as Psalms 102: 25 where the speaker is speaking to YHWH the creator. Christ has nothing to do with either verse Heb 1:10 or Psalms 102:25 where it originated.
(Psa 102:25) Of old, You laid the foundation of the earth, the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Do you notice in verse 9 that it says ....therefore God your God has anointed you.... So you know who the Father God was addressing right? His Messiah. And it was not another God or another person called God either.

Now for verse 8 in much, much more detail. Most love to hang their hat on this verse as their proof-text....

There is much information suggesting that Yeshua is NOT God with his own throne in heaven.

Believers in the Trinity render Hebrews 1:8 this way: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” Thus, they feel that Yeshua is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Why is this not correct?

Look at some of the many counter claims that this rendering is very deceptive and dead wrong.

But first, note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this Psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Yeshua was Almighty God. Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that אלוהים [‘Elo·himʹ, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. Thus, on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”

There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

If we look at some who are said to be respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

Noted trinitarian NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 339.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided honest alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the noted trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ....’”

Quoted From Ps. 45

In addition to these admissions by trinitarian translators concerning Heb. 1:8 itself, we need to look back at the Old Testament Hebrew scripture (Ps. 45:6) that Paul was quoting when he wrote Heb. 1:8.

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides these alternate
readings: “Or your throne is a throne of God, or Thy throne, O God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Message has: "Your throne is God's throne, ever and always.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last
forever and ever.” - ABS, 1976.

The Good News Translation (GNT): “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and
ever.” – ABS, 1992.

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

The NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:
“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 in the NIV Study Bible. [Also see footnote in the NAB, St. Joseph ed.]

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by one of the greatest scholars of Biblical Hebrew of all time, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

Just the admission by so many trinitarian translators (above) that Heb. 1:8 may be honestly translated as it is even in the NWT, makes any insistence by other trinitarians that this scripture is acceptable evidence for a trinity doctrine completely invalid!


JBL: What do you think of this commentary of the scripture you posed, and most probably you have never known its contents before now?

Later then...

Sorry sir, but all you have is just a denial of what the scriptures so plainly and clearly say.

Your Theology ("Theoryology") is no more than just denial.



The truth is, God the Father calls The Son God and LORD (YHWH).


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


He is said to have created the heavens and the earth.

• “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

 

[JustMe]

Sorry sir, but all you have is just a denial of what the scriptures so plainly and clearly say.

Your Theology ("Theoryology") is no more than just denial.



The truth is, God the Father calls The Son God and LORD (YHWH).


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


He is said to have created the heavens and the earth.

• “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

JLB: your response is so amazing and unbelievable.

Whatever you want scripture to mean or be, it will be, as you are your own god.

 

[JLB]

JLB: your response is so amazing and unbelievable.

Thank you.

I agree.




The truth is, God the Father calls The Son God and LORD (YHWH).


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


He is said to have created the heavens and the earth.

• “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

 

[JustMe]

Because both the apostles and Jesus identified Him with God. What is so "beyond you" about it? It is said even explicitly on several places:

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
J 1:18

"...awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
Titus 2:13

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

Or implicitly:
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.
J 11:25

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - Son of Man.
J 3:13

Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
Mt 26:64-66

I'm a few days late in replying to this very serious post of yours that I forget about, until now.

I truly believe as many others like you, you do not understand scripture, at least in knowing the true difference in identifying who is the master, lord and savior of us and who is the one God, our Father, and of his Son. This list of verses you wrote, do not demonstrate your point at all. They speak against your point in fact.

It is true that both the apostles and Yeshua identified him WITH God, although Yeshua is not God and never identified AS being God. I can use one of your cited single verses to show my point, although I can start with a different one that I'm sure you have used previously to support your axiom about Yeshua.

Thomas, the doubting apostle is a great one.

John 20:28 – “my lord and my God”​

Joh 20:24 Thomas (called Didymus) was one of the twelve, but he was not with the other followers when Jesus came.

Joh 20:25 They told him, "We saw the Lord." Thomas said, "That's hard to believe. I will have to see the nail holes in his hands, put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side. Only then will I believe it."

Joh 20:26 A week later the followers were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them. He said, "Peace be with you!"

Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Joh 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "You believe because you see me. Great blessings belong to the people who believe without seeing me!"

(Joh 20:30) Jesus did many other miraculous signs that his followers saw, which are not written in this book.

(Joh 20:31) But these are written so that you can believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. Then, by believing, you can have life through his name. (ERV)

To home in on one verse (28) and especially to one clause to suddenly announce and conclude Yeshua is his own God and ours, is quite a rash move, astonishing and ridiculous. Who would one do such a thing unless they apparently are desperate to win and place another verse in the column” proof-text - Yeshua is God.”

Where is the context and perspective? When was it examined? Or does it matter? Of course it does. It means everything here.

Things to seriously consider:

• Thomas did not believe that God raised his Son, our lord to life and only would believe if he saw his lord, not God! He was not thinking of seeing God at all!
• Besides this verse 28 there is one set of two concatenated verses of the NT that have lord and God in them, with the same meaning as Thomas’ words – in Ephesians 4:5-6. (Eph 4:5) There is one (l) Lord, one faith, and one baptism.(Eph 4:6) There is one God and Father of us all, who rules over everyone. He works through all of us and in all of us. (ERV). And he worked through his Son, his spirit, to raise it/him to life eternal!
• Now Yeshua cannot be both lord (master) and God! And in this verse below, there is noted quite a difference between who is Yeshua, and his Father:

(Joh 17:3) And this is eternal life: that people can know you, the only true God, and that they can know Jesus Christ, the one you sent. (ERV)

And again in 1 Co 8:6

(1Co 8:6) For us there is only one God, and he is our Father. All things came from him, and we live for him. And there is only one (l) Lord, Jesus Christ. All things were made through him, and we also have life through him. (RV)

These are two different people, one called the lord, Yeshua, the Messiah, and the Son of Man, and another who is his Father and ours, the only God.

Only the one God raised his Son, our lord, from the grave, and Thomas was keen to remember that it was predicted and said in the past about his future resurrection, and knew this when he saw Yeshua alive. He then cried out the words, My lord and my God. He was very glad our God raised our lord to life.

And 4. Then in verse 31 we read that John sums up the Thomas incident, very simply by saying that one can believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, (and not God) to have eternal life!

One cannot even be saved without believing in his name(s). Besides that he is also called the Son of Man, he is our lord, the Messiah of God and the Son of God.

If one believes in these names and also that Yeshua is also God, that is not his name, how can one then be saved?! One has the wrong Christ, lord and Messiah.

Thomas knew what he was saying, he was no fool as you would like to believe he may have been. He knew the difference in the two names he used.

I can expound on all the other verses of your list if you wish...

And, as I've also heard as a knee-jerk rebuttal, Yeshua did not correct Thomas in his words..... He did not because he knew what Thomas was saying, not like others who cannot discern. Yeshua knew he was speaking of himself and his Father!

 

[HealthyShape]

Yeshua is not God and never identified AS being God.

This is simply false. One can be confused with "Jesus is God, Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, but there is one God the Father, with these seemingly contradicting statements, until one realizes that the church actually got it right and yes, Trinity is true.

Jesus is called God on many places. I recently quoted Heb 1 in another thread, so here it is, too:

On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. [do you know what this means in Hebrew thinking?]

And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

...about the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

And:

In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Heb 1

 

[rvmb]

This is simply false. One can be confused with "Jesus is God, Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, but there is one God the Father, with these seemingly contradicting statements, until one realizes that the church actually got it right and yes, Trinity is true.

Jesus is called God on many places. I recently quoted Heb 1 in another thread, so here it is, too:

On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. [do you know what this means in Hebrew thinking?]

And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

...about the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

And:

In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Heb 1

I believe & understand that BEFORE Creation, The Father, The Word, The HS existed.
Are there any verses that you are aware of that teaches differently ?

 

[HealthyShape]

I believe & understand that BEFORE Creation, The Father, The Word, The HS existed.
Are there any verses that you are aware of that teaches differently ?

I am not aware of any. Some may use the verses like "You are my Son, today I have begotten you", trying to place "today" at some specific time in history, but this is just their speculation.

 

[JustMe]

This is simply false. One can be confused with "Jesus is God, Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, but there is one God the Father, with these seemingly contradicting statements, until one realizes that the church actually got it right and yes, Trinity is true.

Jesus is called God on many places. I recently quoted Heb 1 in another thread, so here it is, too:

On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. [do you know what this means in Hebrew thinking?]

And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

...about the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

And:

In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Heb 1

HS: If you continue to wave your hand in front of my face and provide no depth and understanding in your now latest presented list of verses supporting your untenable claim that Yeshua is God, then I cannot take you seriously and will not spent the time answering you.

This is a core and very serious topic and you keep deflecting without showing any substance and depth in your post with only lists of verses and now stated in red ink for empty and useless emphasis.

I have done the research and the many hours, days, weeks, years and decades in knowing much scripture with God directing the route for my heart and mind by using his Son in the front seat steering this course laid out just for me . I cannot say the same for you.

Look, I will just examine one areas of scripture of yours, as I've done before for you, and if you cannot counter it with some serious rebuttal, then I can say with certainty you do not know scripture and are just making theater with this subject. i.e. you generate fables; that does not sit well for you.
-----------------------------------------------------

Hebrews 1:8-9 - your kingdom will last forever and ever​

There is much information available suggesting that Yeshua is NOT God with his own throne in heaven. And it would not serve the context and setting of this scripture either

Believers in the Trinity render Hebrews 1:8 this way: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” Thus, they feel that Yeshua is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Beside being counter in thought and understanding with much scripture why is this not correct?

Look at some of the counter claims.

But first, note the context in more detail. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him - the Messiah.

Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this Psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Yeshua was Almighty God. Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that אלוהים [‘Elo·himʹ, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. Thus, on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”

There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

If we look at some who are said to be respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

Noted trinitarian NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 339.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided honest alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the noted trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ....’”

Quoted From Ps. 45

In addition to these admissions by trinitarian translators concerning Heb. 1:8 itself, we need to look back at the Old Testament Hebrew scripture (Ps. 45:6) that Paul was quoting when he wrote Heb. 1:8.

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides these alternate
readings: “Or your throne is a throne of God, or Thy throne, O God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Message has: "Your throne is God's throne, ever and always.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last
forever and ever.” - ABS, 1976.

The Good News Translation (GNT): “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and
ever.” – ABS, 1992.

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

The NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:
“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 in the NIV Study Bible. [Also see footnote in the NAB, St. Joseph ed.]

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by one of the greatest scholars of Biblical Hebrew of all time, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”
Just the admission by so many trinitarian translators (above) that Heb. 1:8 may be honestly translated as it is even in the kryptonite, non-Trinitarian NWT, makes any insistence by other trinitarians that this scripture is acceptable evidence for a trinity doctrine completely invalid!

It seriously counters your support HS for God being Yeshua or the opposite case. It is just a fable you create in your mind.

Please do not provide any more different lists of scripture only, in you rebuttal to me, as you must know they are worthless without any qualification and understanding. I can dismantle every one of them in favor of his Son, as his Messiah and God's Son.

Thank you.
PS I also gave this same post content (#90) to JLB and he also had no answer or rebuttal for me. It's a trend...and he said it's plain to see his and I believe your same position...now go figure that one out...it's insane I tell you...

 

[HealthyShape]

HS: If you continue to wave your hand in front of my face and provide no depth and understanding in your now latest presented list of verses supporting your untenable claim that Yeshua is God, then I cannot take you seriously and will not spent the time answering you.

This is a core and very serious topic and you keep deflecting without showing any substance and depth in your post with only lists of verses and now stated in red ink for empty and useless emphasis.

I have done the research and the many hours, days, weeks, years and decades in knowing much scripture with God directing the route for my heart and mind by using his Son in the front seat steering this course laid out just for me . I cannot say the same for you.

Look, I will just examine one areas of scripture of yours, as I've done before for you, and if you cannot counter it with some serious rebuttal, then I can say with certainty you do not know scripture and are just making theater with this subject. i.e. you generate fables; that does not sit well for you.
-----------------------------------------------------

Hebrews 1:8-9 - your kingdom will last forever and ever​

There is much information available suggesting that Yeshua is NOT God with his own throne in heaven. And it would not serve the context and setting of this scripture either

Believers in the Trinity render Hebrews 1:8 this way: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” Thus, they feel that Yeshua is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Beside being counter in thought and understanding with much scripture why is this not correct?

Look at some of the counter claims.

But first, note the context in more detail. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him - the Messiah.

Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this Psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Yeshua was Almighty God. Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that אלוהים [‘Elo·himʹ, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. Thus, on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”

There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

If we look at some who are said to be respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

Noted trinitarian NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 339.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided honest alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the noted trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ....’”

Quoted From Ps. 45

In addition to these admissions by trinitarian translators concerning Heb. 1:8 itself, we need to look back at the Old Testament Hebrew scripture (Ps. 45:6) that Paul was quoting when he wrote Heb. 1:8.

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides these alternate
readings: “Or your throne is a throne of God, or Thy throne, O God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Message has: "Your throne is God's throne, ever and always.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last
forever and ever.” - ABS, 1976.

The Good News Translation (GNT): “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and
ever.” – ABS, 1992.

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

The NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:
“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 in the NIV Study Bible. [Also see footnote in the NAB, St. Joseph ed.]

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by one of the greatest scholars of Biblical Hebrew of all time, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”
Just the admission by so many trinitarian translators (above) that Heb. 1:8 may be honestly translated as it is even in the kryptonite, non-Trinitarian NWT, makes any insistence by other trinitarians that this scripture is acceptable evidence for a trinity doctrine completely invalid!

It seriously counters your support HS for God being Yeshua or the opposite case. It is just a fable you create in your mind.

Please do not provide any more different lists of scripture only, in you rebuttal to me, as you must know they are worthless without any qualification and understanding. I can dismantle every one of them in favor of his Son, as his Messiah and God's Son.

Thank you.
PS I also gave this same post content (#90) to JLB and he also had no answer or rebuttal for me. It's a trend...and he said it's plain to see his and I believe your same position...now go figure that one out...it's insane I tell you...

I do not find much substance in your posts. You, for example, ignored that Jesus is worshiped by angels, that He made the universe and heavens, that He sits on the right hand of the Majesty in heavens...

You focused only on the word "God" and made your post needlessly long with repetitions, useless details and alternative translations, with warnings that you do not want to take me seriously etc.

I recommend to make your posts more to the point and less verbal. You then ask for rebuttals, when nobody wants to even read your bloated posts and guess what is even your point.

Your post can be summarized into one sentence - you want it to be translated "God is your throne", which sounds quite nonsensical. You found some examples of some people translating it that way, I could quote basically all standard Bible translations translating it the way I quoted. So, you did not really prove much, here. You just presented some alternative opinion.

Also, keep in mind that it is not the Old Testament that determines what the New Testament means, but the other way around - which can be seen also in Heb 1:1.

 

[JustMe]

I do not find much substance in your posts. You, for example, ignored that Jesus is worshiped by angels, that He made the universe and heavens, that He sits on the right hand of the Majesty in heavens...

You focused only on the word "God" and made your post needlessly long with repetitions, useless details and alternative translations, with warnings that you do not want to take me seriously etc.

I recommend to make your posts more to the point and less verbal. You then ask for rebuttals, when nobody wants to even read your bloated posts and guess what is even your point.

Your post can be summarized into one sentence - you want it to be translated "God is your throne", which sounds quite nonsensical. You found some examples of some people translating it that way, I could quote basically all standard Bible translations translating it the way I quoted. So, you did not really prove much, here. You just presented some alternative opinion.

Also, keep in mind that it is not the Old Testament that determines what the New Testament means, but the other way around - which can be seen also in Heb 1:1.

Why did you post again? I thought you might have gotten the hint already. Oh well, then I will reply with clarity; as you wish, and the door is always unlocked for you to leave...anytime now

You said, "Your post can be summarized into one sentence - you want it to be translated "God is your throne", which sounds quite nonsensical."

Not only are your words illogical, really crazy, you may be also experiencing mythomania. Are you also calling these people in my commentary liars, the experts and the ones who are more committed to your belief system than yourself?!

You said. "I do not find much substance in your posts. You, for example, ignored that Jesus is worshiped by angels, that He made the universe and heavens, that He sits on the right hand of the Majesty in heavens..."

I ignore nothing. I remember everything you wrote. I budget my time and effort as any normal person does in responding to these kinds of unfortunately no win--win posts from others as yourself. I guess you might understand this point, maybe not.

So I missed the several dozens of verses or statements you may have wanted me to explain in detail, on your time-line I expect, and you have no responsibility to explain nothing. I suggest you might want to climb over yourself and see who you are to others. IOW self-reflection and understanding others through perspective-taking would be a great exercise for you.


So again, I want to remind you, the door is open for you to leave and the baggage you carry around, leave with you.