1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is not talking about world peace and safety

[Marilyn C]

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4

One reason that pre-tribs don't see this passage as relating to the return of Christ is because they think there will not be world peace and safety before the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

Hi SI,

You would know that I believe in the pretrib, actually pre-Day of the LORD (period of time).

I believe like now the world is talking, saying `peace and safety` as in what they want. Trump is busy all over the world trying to hose down fires and the Pope well he`s just scooting around seemingly benevolent rather than malevolent.

The UN`s mandate is `Peace and Safety,` (Security is same word in Greek).

When God bring the Russian Federation down to the Golan heights for judgment Israel will be dwelling `safely. ` (Ez. 38: 8)

The Prophet Joel speaks of a massive army the biggest there ever was or will be at the beginning of the Day of the LORD, (period of time). (Joel 2: 1 & 2) And Russia has just had another recruitment for its army with over 100 thousands new recruits . Add that to its great army now with Iran, Libya and Ethiopia and former USSR nations all joining in. Well, you can see what a massive army this will be.

So, there will seem to be `Peace and Safety` before all hell breaks loose over the Golan heights. If not early next year, then it will be the next year I believe. Not long to see if....

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, what is your definition for each of these age terms you have created....
first age ?
second age ?
third age ?
fourth age ?
fifth age?
sixth age?
seventh age?

If there are Seven Ages then it is logical to identify them in the manner you have used.

The first age spanned God Sabbath Day
The second age spanned has two parts, initially God's judgement of mankind on the face of the earth because of their wickedness except for His Saints, who all died before the flood started and God spared Noah and his sons and their respective wives because of Noah's righteousness. After the flood God brought about His Covenant with Mankind through Abraham with the promise of a son who would be the confirmation of God's covenant with Abraham.
The third age started with the birth of Isaac with the story of the Nation of Israel over the next five ages etc.

And so forth.

 

[Douggg]

The first age spanned God Sabbath Day

When did it begin and when did it end ? What years BC ?

The second age spanned has two parts, initially God's judgement of mankind on the face of the earth because of their wickedness except for His Saints, who all died before the flood started and God spared Noah and his sons and their respective wives because of Noah's righteousness. After the flood God brought about His Covenant with Mankind through Abraham with the promise of a son who would be the confirmation of God's covenant with Abraham.

When did the first part of the second age begin and when did it end ? What years BC ?

When did the second part of the second age begin and when did it end ? What years BC ?

The third age started with the birth of Isaac with the story of the Nation of Israel over the next five ages etc.

When did the third age begin and when did it end ? What years BC ?

----------------------------------------------------

Jay, you have four of your ages left to define. And give what years they began and ended.

According to genealogy listings in the bible, the earth from its creation to present is around 6000 years old. 4000 years from creation to Christ's first coming. Then from Christ first coming, 2000 years to present.

 

[Jay Ross]

When did the first part of the second age begin and when did it end ? What years BC ?

When did the second part of the second age begin and when did it end ? What years BC ?


When did the third age begin and when did it end ? What years BC ?

In answer to your questions: -

Year BC when the second age began	1025​
Year BC when the flood began	2444​
Year BC when the flood ended	2445​
Year BC when the second age ended	2052​
Year BC when Isaac was born and the beginning of the Third age	2051​
Year BC when the third age ended	1028​

According to genealogy listings in the bible, the earth from its creation to present is around 6000 years old. 4000 years from creation to Christ's first coming. Then from Christ first coming, 2000 years to present.

Douggg, from my studies of the chronology of mankind, we are presently living in the 6,126 year since Adam was created and this present six age will end in the year 2044 AD.

Bishop Ussher's chronology of the Old Testament has a number of significant errors in the assumptions that he made when constructing his particular chronology, particularly that Adam was created in the year 4,004 BC.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hi SI,

You would know that I believe in the pretrib, actually pre-Day of the LORD (period of time).

I believe like now the world is talking, saying `peace and safety` as in what they want. Trump is busy all over the world trying to hose down fires and the Pope well he`s just scooting around seemingly benevolent rather than malevolent.

The UN`s mandate is `Peace and Safety,` (Security is same word in Greek).

When God bring the Russian Federation down to the Golan heights for judgment Israel will be dwelling `safely. ` (Ez. 38: 8)

The Prophet Joel speaks of a massive army the biggest there ever was or will be at the beginning of the Day of the LORD, (period of time). (Joel 2: 1 & 2) And Russia has just had another recruitment for its army with over 100 thousands new recruits . Add that to its great army now with Iran, Libya and Ethiopia and former USSR nations all joining in. Well, you can see what a massive army this will be.

So, there will seem to be `Peace and Safety` before all hell breaks loose over the Golan heights. If not early next year, then it will be the next year I believe. Not long to see if....

Where do you see anything like any of that described by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 or Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12? Do you not trust that Paul and Peter knew what they were talking about? How does your understanding of the day of the Lord agree with Paul saying that the day of the Lord will arrive unexpectedly as a thief in the night bringing "sudden destruction" upon those who are in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape"?

Also, why do you think Paul was talking about world peace and safety when that does not line up with the context of 1 Thessalonians 5 at all? Instead, he was talking in relation to those in spiritual darkness feeling as if they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath. It has nothing to do with world peace and safety.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Daniel 7:12: - 12As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was removed, but they were granted an extension of life for a season and a time.

Revelation 20:1-3: - 1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Can you join the dots now?

No, because you are misinterpreting those passages. Your entire doctrine is based on speculation and not on any clear scripture passages that you can use to support it.

 

[Jay Ross]

No, because you are misinterpreting those passages. Your entire doctrine is based on speculation and not on any clear scripture passages that you can use to support it.

Well that is your opinion based on your own study and verification of what other "experts" have claimed.

Now if I am representing those passages, then you should be able to clearly show how I have misrepresented those passages of scriptures so that there is grounds for an open discussion on your claims.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well that is your opinion based on your own study

Obviously.

and verification of what other "experts" have claimed.

Not sure what you're talking about here. I don't need any verification of what is clear to me in my own study of scripture.

Now if I am representing those passages, then you should be able to clearly show how I have misrepresented those passages of scriptures so that there is grounds for an open discussion on your claims.

Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse referring to what happened to the previous three beasts that came before the fourth beast. The four beasts represent ancient world empires (Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece and Rome). How exactly do you think that verse supports your beliefs?

Regarding Revelation 20, do you not know that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection? Where do you place the timing of the thousand years in relation to the second coming of Christ? It can't begin when He returns because He has already been reigning for a long time.

 

[Jay Ross]

Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse referring to what happened to the previous three beasts that came before the fourth beast. The four beasts represent ancient world empires (Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece and Rome). How exactly do you think that verse supports your beliefs?

From my study, the four beasts judged in Daniel 7:11-12 are not earthly entities but rather they are all fallen heavenly hosts

In Isaiah 24:21-22 we are told that God will judge the heavenly hosts in heaven and the kings of the earth on the earth and that they will be gathered together and imprisoned in a pit, i.e. the Bottomless Pit/the Abyss, for many days to await the time of their punishment.

Your understanding of the true entity of the Beasts in Daniel 7 seems to be your stumbling block. Daniel 7:2 tells us that the four winds of heaven, i.e. spiritual entities like fallen angels, have and are still stirring up the sea of humanity to manifest spiritual entities from out of the sea of humanity to do their bidding and to particularly manifest their dominate respective characteristic. nations and people groups have ebbed and flowed in and out of the respective dominions of the four winds of heaven, i.e. the four beasts.

We need agreement on our respective understanding of the entity type of the four beasts.

When we can agree on who the beats are then we can continue our discussion further on 1 Thess 5:2-3.

Regarding Revelation 20, do you not know that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection? Where do you place the timing of the thousand years in relation to the second coming of Christ? It can't begin when He returns because He has already been reigning for a long time.

Again Daniel 7:13-14 tells us when the Son of Man will receive his dominion over the peoples of the earth and this will happen in around 20 years from now.

Yes Christ has been sitting at the right hand of God and He has been influencing His saints through the Holy Spirit, but having dominion over all of the peoples of the earth such that they will worship Him has not yet happened.

Shalom

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

From my study, the four beasts judged in Daniel 7:11-12 are not earthly entities but rather they are all fallen heavenly hosts

In Isaiah 24:21-22 we are told that God will judge the heavenly hosts in heaven and the kings of the earth on the earth and that they will be gathered together and imprisoned in a pit, i.e. the Bottomless Pit/the Abyss, for many days to await the time of their punishment.

Your understanding of the true entity of the Beasts in Daniel 7 seems to be your stumbling block. Daniel 7:2 tells us that the four winds of heaven, i.e. spiritual entities like fallen angels, have and are still stirring up the sea of humanity to manifest spiritual entities from out of the sea of humanity to do their bidding and to particularly manifest their dominate respective characteristic. nations and people groups have ebbed and flowed in and out of the respective dominions of the four winds of heaven, i.e. the four beasts.

We need agreement on our respective understanding of the entity type of the four beasts.

When we can agree on who the beats are then we can continue our discussion further on 1 Thess 5:2-3.

That will never happen, so the discussion is over.

Again Daniel 7:13-14 tells us when the Son of Man will receive his dominion over the peoples of the earth and this will happen in around 20 years from now.

Yes Christ has been sitting at the right hand of God and He has been influencing His saints through the Holy Spirit, but having dominion over all of the peoples of the earth such that they will worship Him has not yet happened.

Daniel 7:13-14 refers to the ascension of Christ. Just compare it to Ephesians 1:19-22 and you should see that.

 

[Marilyn C]

Where do you see anything like any of that described by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 or Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12? Do you not trust that Paul and Peter knew what they were talking about? How does your understanding of the day of the Lord agree with Paul saying that the day of the Lord will arrive unexpectedly as a thief in the night bringing "sudden destruction" upon those who are in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape"?

Also, why do you think Paul was talking about world peace and safety when that does not line up with the context of 1 Thessalonians 5 at all? Instead, he was talking in relation to those in spiritual darkness feeling as if they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath. It has nothing to do with world peace and safety.

We are to look at ALL of God`s word on a subject.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are to look at ALL of God`s word on a subject.

Of course. But, our beliefs should not contradict ANY of God's word on a subject, but yours does. Nowhere is the day of the Lord said to be a period of time. Why would you want to contradict Paul who indicated that the events related to the day of the Lord will be "sudden"?

 

[Marilyn C]

Of course. But, our beliefs should not contradict ANY of God's word on a subject, but yours does. Nowhere is the day of the Lord said to be a period of time. Why would you want to contradict Paul who indicated that the events related to the day of the Lord will be "sudden"?

You have NOT addressed the Day of the LORD in Hebrew and Greek and in Joel 2.

Paul talks about the beginning of the Day of the Lord, (time period). And that `sudden` matches Joel 2.

 

[Douggg]

Year BC when the second age began	1025​
Year BC when the flood began	2444​
Year BC when the flood ended	2445​
Year BC when the second age ended	2052​
Year BC when Isaac was born and the beginning of the Third age	2051​
Year BC when the third age ended	1028​

Jay, let me see if I understand your view correctly...

first age:
Year BC began ????????
Year BC ended ????????

second age:
Year BC began 1025 (Jay, shouldn't that year be greater than 2052)
Year BC ended 2052

third age:
Year BC began 2051
Year BC ended 1058

There are still four of your seven ages still undefined.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have NOT addressed the Day of the LORD in Hebrew and Greek and in Joel 2.

What is there to address? I acknowledge that the Hebrew word translated as "day" in Joel 2 can refer to a period of time or a literal 24 hour day. I don't see any evidence to show that it refers to anything but a literal 24 hour day when used to refer to the day of the Lord. I don't know how you can possibly make any sense of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 if the day of the Lord is a period of time. You have done nothing to clearly show how that can be the case.

Paul talks about the beginning of the Day of the Lord, (time period). And that `sudden` matches Joel 2.

You're not being clear here. What are you intending to say exactly? Where does he say he's talking about "the beginning of the day of the Lord"? Nowhere that I can see. He refers to the day of the Lord itself and says that it will come as a thief in the night. How does that day of the Lord come as a thief in the night in your view? And he also indicates that the "sudden destruction" occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. Can you just tell me exactly how you interpret 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? Be as specific as possible. They are short passages, so I don't think I'm asking too much here.

 

[Marilyn C]

What is there to address? I acknowledge that the Hebrew word translated as "day" in Joel 2 can refer to a period of time or a literal 24 hour day. I don't see any evidence to show that it refers to anything but a literal 24 hour day when used to refer to the day of the Lord. I don't know how you can possibly make any sense of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 if the day of the Lord is a period of time. You have done nothing to clearly show how that can be the case.


You're not being clear here. What are you intending to say exactly? Where does he say he's talking about "the beginning of the day of the Lord"? Nowhere that I can see. He refers to the day of the Lord itself and says that it will come as a thief in the night. How does that day of the Lord come as a thief in the night in your view? And he also indicates that the "sudden destruction" occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. Can you just tell me exactly how you interpret 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? Be as specific as possible. They are short passages, so I don't think I'm asking too much here.

Joel 2 please - the Day of the Lord period of time. You seemed to have missed that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Joel 2 please - the Day of the Lord period of time. You seemed to have missed that.

There is nothing in Joel 2 about the day of the Lord being a period of time. What do you think, that Joel was talking about a long period of time of "of darkness and of gloominess" (Joel 2:2)? Is that your understanding of the thousand years, that it will be a time period "of darkness and of gloominess"? That matches what is described in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. It will be a day of darkness and gloominess for unbelievers because they will be destroyed on the day of the Lord's return.

 

[Marilyn C]

There is nothing in Joel 2 about the day of the Lord being a period of time. What do you think, that Joel was talking about a long period of time of "of darkness and of gloominess" (Joel 2:2)? Is that your understanding of the thousand years, that it will be a time period "of darkness and of gloominess"? That matches what is described in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. It will be a day of darkness and gloominess for unbelievers because they will be destroyed on the day of the Lord's return.

Joel 2 - northern army attacking Israel. God deals with them driving them towards the eastern and western sea.

Joel 3 - God brings ALL the nations down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat to be judged.

The shows that the Day of the LORD is also a period of time as well as a specific day.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, let me see if I understand your view correctly...

first age:
Year BC began ????????
Year BC ended ????????

second age:
Year BC began 1025 (Jay, shouldn't that year be greater than 2052)
Year BC ended 2052

third age:
Year BC began 2051
Year BC ended 1058

There are still four of your seven ages still undefined.

I am travelling at the moment and on holidays and I do not have the time to keep both you and my wife happy at the same time.

I Have reworked the table just for your consumption and enlightenment.

Year first age started with the creation of Adam	4100
Year BC first age ended with the end of God,s Sabbath day.	3076
Year BC when the second age began	3075
Year BC when the flood began	2444
Year BC when the flood ended	2445
Year BC when the second age ended	2052
Year BC when the third age began and Isaac was born	2051
Year BC when the third age ended	1028
Year BC when thefourth age started	1027
Year BC when the fifth age began and Christ was born	4
Year BC when Christ was cruxified	29
Year BC when the the temple was destroyed and Israel was scattered.	71
Year AD when the fifth Age Ended	1020
Year AD when the sixth age began	1021
Year AD when the sixth age ends	2044
Year AD when the seventh age begins	2045
Year AD when the seventh age ends	3068

Please remember that story telling accurace with respect to time can be plus or minus up to five years.

Also remember that Bishop Ussher made an assumption that the Biblical Hebrew number that is translated as a "thousand" is the maximum number that can be counted upon the ten digits on our hands, hence the term "Those hands" which when spoken quickly sounds like the word thousand that we us for 1,000 whereas the maximum number that we can count using the ten digits on our two hands is actually 1,024, which is the exact number of years I have used above in this table.

 

[Douggg]

@Jay Ross

Jay, what I am gathering from your posts and table so far is that the so-called "seven ages" is a man-made systematic analysis of human history based upon...

2Peter3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

(On your table, you made this typo, btw, "Year AD when the sisth age began")

On your table, I suggest including the significant event in parenthesis for the beginning and ending. For example...

Year BC when the fifth age began and Christ was born (significant event - Christ's birth)

Year AD when the sixth age began (significant event - ????? )

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jay, I recommend that you just abandon the entire 7 ages man-made system of first age, second age, third age, fourth age, fifth age, sixth age, seventh age.... as those terms are not found in the bible.

Thanks for the mentioning of James Ussher, btw. I have never heard of him. Not that I am going to be a follower of what he taught.