Predestination and Freedom Under God

[newton3005]

To what extent has God predestined us? Some may believe that it is a predestination that we cannot avoid no matter what we do. But does predestination under God address the ends, or does it merely address the means?

Some in a young age may believe, ‘It’s in God’s plans that I be bad for the rest of my life, so why bother to change?’ But does the Bible even go near to explaining predestination in that manner?

Seems that many of the Passages of the Bible express predestination in more of an advisory capacity, something akin to being hired by an employer who conveys he has predestined you to be a Vice President of his company. Seems that in the Bible, predestination is more of a goal that is a matter of choice…we can either strive for that goal, or we may find we were made for other goals as well. We may have many destinations to fulfill or choose from, all righteous under God.

Proverbs 16:9 says, “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Maybe there is more than one set of steps. It’s like your heart plans your way inside of a building on Madison Avenue, but the steps are established by the ones who built them. And you may have also planned to go up other buildings, either to find a job or meet with a customer. Some may confuse predestination with fate. But in any event, the matter of fate seems to be more of a concept envisioned by those who do not believe in our God; it is more associated with many people in times of the Greek and Roman heyday who believed in many Gods.

Romans 8:28-30 says, “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” But regardless of what we are predestined for, we may fulfill many purposes in the name of what is good.

What is the freedom that is envisioned in the Bible? It is the freedom to do what is good. God created the universe and the earth with its inhabitants including man in the name of goodness. God did not crate Adam and Eve so he could use them as robots abiding by His every wish…He left it up to them in terms of the actions they would take, even if it goes against what He didn’t want them to do, and they were equally free to suffer the consequences. Cain was free to kill Abel, but he was also free to suffer the consequences of his actions. It is this spirit of freedom that has stuck with man ever since…the freedom to choose between good and evil and to experience the consequences of either.

But enough people have chosen to use their freedom for goodness’s sake and therefore God’s sake, that we are still around. The Bible encourages us to exercise our freedom when it’s tempered in the name of goodness. 1 Peter 2:16 says to live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Galatians 5:13 says, “For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.”

Is goodness in our freedom a parameter we can live with? Can we accept that within God’s Goodness there are many destinations we can choose, and one destination may follow another or be on the same path at the same time, or on different paths at different times?

 

[SirJamsalot]

This is a fun topic, something I have spent a lot of time studying. I was not able to post the full content here due to character limits, but I have placed it on a blog I just started where I have more room to write.

My blog post: on free will and predestination

You can skim the first half here and then freely choose whether or not to read the full post there


Forgive the long post, but to help better understand what the bible teaches about it, its best to see every side the bible presents so we can put it altogether into its proper category : mystery. This topic is actually addressed in the Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF), so I'll start with its statements on the topic, then delve into the scriptures they used to back up their summary of what the bible teaches.

The Westminster Confession is very careful to avoid the caricature of predestination as blind, mechanical determinism. Determinism is something philosophers like Alex O’Connor would stress we are subject to in this world because if everything is bound to strict laws of physics, well - gravity doesn't exactly have a choice - neither do the cells in your body. The bible on the other hand maintains that God not only predestined our end, but has also predestined our free choices that get us to the end; that is to say, he predestined the means as well as the ends.

The Westminster Confession of Faith begins its chapter on God’s decree by saying that God, “from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass. WCF 3.1 - these are the bible verses supporting.

Isaiah 46:9-11
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Ephesians 1:10-11
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

But in the same breath, the WCF immediately adds that by this decree “neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.” In other words: Scripture teaches both that God truly foreordains all things, and that our choices are real, voluntary, and morally significant. God doesn’t “pull our strings” like a puppeteer; He ordains a world in which our freely-chosen actions are part of His wise plan.

The best statement I have heard to describe this to date is, "God foreordains the free choices of man" - Greg Bahnsen on his lecture series on the WCF.

How we arrive at this.
If we confess that all Scripture is God-breathed

2 Tim 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

and that “it is impossible for God to lie”

Heb 6:18
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Tit 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Then everything God has said must be true, even when we do not see how all the truths fit together. Our task is to distinguish what can be reconciled at the level of human reason from what must be left as mystery. As Dr. Greg Bahnsen often urged, we do not sit in judgment over God’s Word with an independent philosophy; we let God’s Word set the boundaries of our philosophy, even when it humbles us.

On one side:
Scripture strongly teaches foreordination and meticulous providence, including over human decisions:

Prov 16:33
“The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.”

Ps 115:3
“Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.”

Eph 1:11
“[God] works all things according to the counsel of his will.”

Prov 21:1
The king’s heart itself is “a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will”

Because of this, Joseph can say to his brothers, “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good”, Gen 50:20. You see here one act, two intentions, with God’s intention decisively governing the outcome.

The cross was both wickedly chosen by men and precisely what “God’s hand and [God’s] plan had predestined to take place”

Acts 4:27–28
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy [fn]Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Acts 2:22-23
Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man [fn]attested to you by God with [fn]miracles and wonders and [fn]signs which God did through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of lawless men and put Him to death.

On the other side:
Scripture just as strongly asserts human responsibility and real choice:

Josh 24:15
“Choose this day whom you will serve.”

Ezek 33:11
“Turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Matt 23:37
Jesus laments, “How often would I have gathered your children together … and you were not willing.”

John 5:40
“You refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

James insists that when we sin we must not blame God:

James 1:13–15
“Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”

due to board constraints, I had to post the full response to my blog here:
on free will and predestination



In His Grip
c.

 

[One 2 question]

This is a fun topic, something I have spent a lot of time studying. I was not able to post the full content here due to character limits, but I have placed it on a blog I just started where I have more room to write.



You can skim the first half here and then freely choose whether or not to read the full post there


Forgive the long post, but to help better understand what the bible teaches about it, its best to see every side the bible presents so we can put it altogether into its proper category : mystery. This topic is actually addressed in the Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF), so I'll start with its statements on the topic, then delve into the scriptures they used to back up their summary of what the bible teaches.

The Westminster Confession is very careful to avoid the caricature of predestination as blind, mechanical determinism. Determinism is something philosophers like Alex O’Connor would stress we are subject to in this world because if everything is bound to strict laws of physics, well - gravity doesn't exactly have a choice - neither do the cells in your body. The bible on the other hand maintains that God not only predestined our end, but has also predestined our free choices that get us to the end; that is to say, he predestined the means as well as the ends.

The Westminster Confession of Faith begins its chapter on God’s decree by saying that God, “from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass. WCF 3.1 - these are the bible verses supporting.




But in the same breath, the WCF immediately adds that by this decree “neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.” In other words: Scripture teaches both that God truly foreordains all things, and that our choices are real, voluntary, and morally significant. God doesn’t “pull our strings” like a puppeteer; He ordains a world in which our freely-chosen actions are part of His wise plan.

The best statement I have heard to describe this to date is, "God foreordains the free choices of man" - Greg Bahnsen on his lecture series on the WCF.

How we arrive at this.
If we confess that all Scripture is God-breathed



and that “it is impossible for God to lie”



Then everything God has said must be true, even when we do not see how all the truths fit together. Our task is to distinguish what can be reconciled at the level of human reason from what must be left as mystery. As Dr. Greg Bahnsen often urged, we do not sit in judgment over God’s Word with an independent philosophy; we let God’s Word set the boundaries of our philosophy, even when it humbles us.

On one side:
Scripture strongly teaches foreordination and meticulous providence, including over human decisions:



Because of this, Joseph can say to his brothers, “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good”, Gen 50:20. You see here one act, two intentions, with God’s intention decisively governing the outcome.

The cross was both wickedly chosen by men and precisely what “God’s hand and [God’s] plan had predestined to take place”





On the other side:
Scripture just as strongly asserts human responsibility and real choice:



James insists that when we sin we must not blame God:



due to board constraints, I had to post the full response to my blog here:
on free will and predestination



In His Grip
c.

A quick comment here. God does tempt those He loves.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Seems that many of the Passages of the Bible express predestination in more of an advisory capacity, something akin to being hired by an employer who conveys he has predestined you to be a Vice President of his company. Seems that in the Bible, predestination is more of a goal that is a matter of choice…we can either strive for that goal, or we may find we were made for other goals as well. We may have many destinations to fulfill or choose from, all righteous under God.

Nope. Predestination is a past event. As Paul said we were chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[One 2 question]

Romans 8:28-30 says, “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” But regardless of what we are predestined for, we may fulfill many purposes in the name of what is good.

The Potter, thinks of a particular design then breaks off a particular price of clay then moulds and creates it. Then He uses it according to His designed purpose. Whether that is for multiple uses or one specific use. Some He saves for His uses while the rest are left and remain available for His adversary's use.

 

[SirJamsalot]

A quick comment here. God does tempt those He loves.

HI @One 2 question ! I think Scripture makes an important distinction that’s easy to blur. James says very plainly:

James 1:12-14
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

In that sense, tempting means enticing someone toward evil, and James explicitly says God doesn’t do that.

At the same time, the Bible does say God tests His people.

Genesis 22:1-2 God Tested Abraham
Now it happened after these things, that God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Take now your son, your only one, whom you love, Isaac, and go forth to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.”

Deuteronomy 8:2-3 - Israel
And you shall remember all the way which Yahweh your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

Exodus 16:4 - God Tested Israel
Then Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, that I may test them, whether or not they will walk in My law.

There is a sense where God does intervene or limit temptations. The same outward trial can be both a test from God (to refine and strengthen faith) and a temptation from our own sinful desires or from Satan (to drag us into sin). But God is not the author of it.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man, but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

So a more careful way to stay in the boundaries of scripture might be to say that there is a sense in which God intervenes in and limits temptations. The same outward trial can be both a test from God (to refine and strengthen faith) and a temptation from our own sinful desires or from Satan (to drag us into sin). But God is never the author of the sin committed in that trial.

God’s role in those moments is to expose, purify, and rescue!

In His Grip!
c.

 

[One 2 question]

HI @One 2 question ! I think Scripture makes an important distinction that’s easy to blur. James says very plainly:



In that sense, tempting means enticing someone toward evil, and James explicitly says God doesn’t do that.

At the same time, the Bible does say God tests His people.


There is a sense where God does intervene or limit temptations. The same outward trial can be both a test from God (to refine and strengthen faith) and a temptation from our own sinful desires or from Satan (to drag us into sin). But God is not the author of it.


So a more careful way to stay in the boundaries of scripture might be to say that there is a sense in which God intervenes in and limits temptations. The same outward trial can be both a test from God (to refine and strengthen faith) and a temptation from our own sinful desires or from Satan (to drag us into sin). But God is never the author of the sin committed in that trial.

God’s role in those moments is to expose, purify, and rescue!

In His Grip!
c.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

After this Jesus taught His disciples to pray and one of the things He told them to pray was, 'Our Father in heaven.....lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil'.

 

[SirJamsalot]

Hi @One 2 question

Matthew 4:1-4
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”

Matthew 6: 13
And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one

It is the devil who does the tempting, and God (our great shepherd) who does the leading!

God can and does lead His people into trials where the devil will tempt them, in order to humble us and teach us to cling to Him, but God Himself is never the one enticing us to sin. He ordains and limits the trial; our own desires and “the tempter” provide the lure.

I also agree with the heart behind what you’re saying that the purpose of these trials is to draw us nearer to the God who loves us. I just want to be careful that we describe that work in the way He describes it. We need to rest wholly on how God reveals who He is and what He does in His Word, using His language, not ours.

In His Grip!
C.

 

[Davy]

The Bible student will just go around in circles with trying to understand the idea of predestination until they begin to see that God did reveal His Truth to some, but not to others. Men's doctrines constantly try to find some prop to use in attempt to show it's the same for everyone. It's not, and most will not understand why that is until Jesus returns.

 

[One 2 question]

S

The Bible student will just go around in circles with trying to understand the idea of predestination until they begin to see that God did reveal His Truth to some, but not to others. Men's doctrines constantly try to find some prop to use in attempt to show it's the same for everyone. It's not, and most will not understand why that is until Jesus returns.

Why does God only reveal it it some people but not all?

 

[Davy]

S

Why does God only reveal it it some people but not all?

I'll put it this way; every soul is accountable for their belief and choice. And God does not make our choice to believe for us.

However, we have Biblical examples, clear examples, like Apostle Paul that Jesus divinely intervened with on the road to Damascus, because Paul (Saul at the time) was actually hunting down Christians for the Pharisees, and bringing them captive to Jerusalem to be tried by the Jews. Jesus said Paul was His "chosen vessel" to take The Gospel to the Gentiles, and to kings, and to the children of Israel (Acts 9).

Likewise, God divinely intervened with Jonah, forcing Jonah to do the duty God had set for him.

God told His prophet Jeremiah that He knew Jeremiah before he was in his mother's womb.

In John 17, Jesus said His Apostles were owned by The Father, and that The Father gave them to Jesus, and that the were 'sent' into the world like Jesus was. If you recall, when Jesus first met His Apostles He told them to follow Him, and they got up and followed, no questions asked.

Lot of preachers don't like it, because it gets in the way of their wanting to apply The Gospel in a universal all-are-same manner, but Jesus showed many are called, but few are chosen.

That's the difference between His 'very elect' who are chosen that He already owns that cannot be deceived, compared with His elect Church who are called only and choose to believe. In Matthew 24:24 Jesus show His "very elect" cannot be deceived at the end of this world. The warnings in The New Testament against falling away and being deceived by the coming antichrist is for those who are called only.

As I said before, many will not understand this until Lord Jesus comes. Like when His disciples asked Him in Matthew 13 why He spoke to the multitudes in parables, Jesus said His Apostles were blessed, as it was given unto them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to the multitudes, it is not given.


The Old Testament Isaiah asked The LORD about this matter also... wanting to know how long it would take place...

Isa 6:8-13
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then said I, "Here am I; send me."

Here is where Lord Jesus was quoting from Isaiah to His disciples in Matthew 13 about the multitudes not being given spiritual eyes to see, and ears to hear...

9 And He said, "Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

11 Then said I, "Lord, how long?" And He answered, "Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

Isaiah then asks God 'how long' that spiritual blindness is going to be upon the multitudes of peoples. God then points to end time events.

13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof."
KJV

That tenth is about a 'remnant' of God's people, His chosen ones of both believing Israel and believing Gentiles, His "very elect" that cannot be deceived.

 

[One 2 question]

I'll put it this way; every soul is accountable for their belief and choice. And God does not make our choice to believe for us.

However, we have Biblical examples, clear examples, like Apostle Paul that Jesus divinely intervened with on the road to Damascus, because Paul (Saul at the time) was actually hunting down Christians for the Pharisees, and bringing them captive to Jerusalem to be tried by the Jews. Jesus said Paul was His "chosen vessel" to take The Gospel to the Gentiles, and to kings, and to the children of Israel (Acts 9).

Likewise, God divinely intervened with Jonah, forcing Jonah to do the duty God had set for him.

God told His prophet Jeremiah that He knew Jeremiah before he was in his mother's womb.

In John 17, Jesus said His Apostles were owned by The Father, and that The Father gave them to Jesus, and that the were 'sent' into the world like Jesus was. If you recall, when Jesus first met His Apostles He told them to follow Him, and they got up and followed, no questions asked.

Lot of preachers don't like it, because it gets in the way of their wanting to apply The Gospel in a universal all-are-same manner, but Jesus showed many are called, but few are chosen.

That's the difference between His 'very elect' who are chosen that He already owns that cannot be deceived, compared with His elect Church who are called only and choose to believe. In Matthew 24:24 Jesus show His "very elect" cannot be deceived at the end of this world. The warnings in The New Testament against falling away and being deceived by the coming antichrist is for those who are called only.

As I said before, many will not understand this until Lord Jesus comes. Like when His disciples asked Him in Matthew 13 why He spoke to the multitudes in parables, Jesus said His Apostles were blessed, as it was given unto them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to the multitudes, it is not given.


The Old Testament Isaiah asked The LORD about this matter also... wanting to know how long it would take place...

Isa 6:8-13
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then said I, "Here am I; send me."

Here is where Lord Jesus was quoting from Isaiah to His disciples in Matthew 13 about the multitudes not being given spiritual eyes to see, and ears to hear...

9 And He said, "Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

11 Then said I, "Lord, how long?" And He answered, "Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

Isaiah then asks God 'how long' that spiritual blindness is going to be upon the multitudes of peoples. God then points to end time events.

13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof."
KJV

That tenth is about a 'remnant' of God's people, His chosen ones of both believing Israel and believing Gentiles, His "very elect" that cannot be deceived.

How reassuring that the elect cannot be deceived. We are marked for a special specific purpose hey. To rule and reign with christ as kings and priests. All predetermined in a past age for these amazing roles. I can't wait to receive my appointment in Jesus's 1000 year global government period. To serve beside King Jesus the Great High Priest.

Rev 5: 9&10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[One 2 question]

I'll put it this way; every soul is accountable for their belief and choice. And God does not make our choice to believe for us.

Maybe not but He makes it impossible for us to not see our sinful state, where that will lead to and highlights a Saviour.

And the same God makes it impossible for the elect to be deceived because He has opened our eyes to see every deceiver and their deception.

Yes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

[Davy]

How reassuring that the elect cannot be deceived. We are marked for a special specific purpose hey. To rule and reign with christ as kings and priests. All predetermined in a past age for these amazing roles. I can't wait to receive my appointment in Jesus's 1000 year global government period. To serve beside King Jesus the Great High Priest.

Rev 5: 9&10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Yes, as long as we are not deceived at the end. Many will be.

 

[One 2 question]

Yes, as long as we are not deceived at the end. Many will be.

Yes there will be.

 

[One 2 question]

Yes, as long as we are not deceived at the end. Many will be.

Like the 5 virgins? They were deceived thinking they were known by Jesus but weren't, away from me I NEVER knew you.

Obviously they knew the Groom was coming and were waiting for Him. But Jesus had no knowledge or relationship with these 5 virgins. Who do these represent?

 

[Davy]

Like the 5 virgins? They were deceived thinking they were known by Jesus but weren't, away from me I NEVER knew you.

Obviously they knew the Groom was coming and were waiting for Him. But Jesus had no knowledge or relationship with these 5 virgins. Who do these represent?

The five foolish virgins represent deceived brethren believers.

The Oil in the lamps represents The Holy Spirit, our Teacher (See John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2).

The five foolish virgins had Oil to go with their lamps, but they didn't have a spare vessel of The Oil like the five wise virgins did. This means the five foolish virgins do... represent believing brethren on Lord Jesus Christ, and have been given The Holy Spirit (Oil), but still lacking, but what?

Some just try and say those five foolish virgins were not real believers on Christ, but that doesn't work because Lord Jesus showed they had The Oil in their lamps also. So what was lacking? In Matthew 7, Jesus gave another example of those who were believers on Him, cast out devils, and preached Him in their streets, having done many wonderful works, all in His Name, but Jesus will turn them away at His return, because they worked "iniquity".

Their being believers on Lord Jesus Christ, yet working "iniquity" suggests they followed their flesh and things of this world. 1 Corinthians 2 is a lesson on this regarding how our understanding in Christ should be, in The Spirit, and not according to the wisdom of this world. This suggests why the five foolish virgins were told to go BUY the Oil at the market, and they actually went to buy the Oil, thinking they could 'buy' The Holy Spirit. That kind of thinking is of this world, not of the wisdom of God by The Holy Spirit.

How exactly might their foolishness apply today then?

One of the things I constantly warn brethren about are the 'doctrines of men' that do not keep to God's written Word, but instead are formed by men who think they have the right to create their 'own' standards and policies for Christ's Salvation. This very thing Lord Jesus hated about the blind scribes and Pharisees who had created a system of men's traditions that did not align with God's Word. Their traditions paid more attention to the wisdom of this world instead of staying with God's Wisdom in His Word. And they created a system of politico-religious power over the Jewish people so that they couldn't become closer to God's Word for themselves to follow God's Way. That corruption among the Jews especially happened during their Babylon captivity, which produced their main doctrine for Judaism today per their Babylonian Talmud sage writings (sayings and traditions of their sages, much worldly wisdom).

What The Holy Spirit under Lord Jesus Christ does though, is prevents those doctrines and traditions of worldly wisdom that men come up with that do not align with God's Word. It's not the words doctrine or tradition that is bad, it is their creation of 'false' doctrine or false traditions that go against God's written Word.

Thus, the "iniquity" by the five foolish virgins suggests they had fallen into the traps of the things of this world, instead of staying focused on the wisdom of God given by The Holy Spirit as our Teacher and Guide, which includes staying in God's Word. And how does that work, you might ask?

As per Jeremiah 31:32-34 and Hebrews 8:10 and Hebrews 10:16, God said He would eventually give His people His covenant, and put His laws into our minds, and write them in our hearts, and we would all then 'know' Him. That is per The New Covenant Jesus Christ, and is done by The Holy Spirit. How does that work though?

When we, as disciples of Christ, start to do something which we should not, The Holy Spirit within us will warn us about it, that is, IF... we listen to The Holy Spirit as our Guide and Teacher. We can still choose NOT... to listen to The Holy Spirit, and go our own way instead, which will mean following the things of this world. The more often we listen and heed The Holy Spirit Teacher, the more often He will warn us and teach us about the difference between the things of this world, and the things of God. Get in the bad habit of NOT listening and heeding, and eventually The Holy Spirit will be 'cut off', like what happened to king Saul.

How... then, can we get loaded up in preparation to listen and heed The Holy Spirit as our Teacher? By staying in God's Word. Like Apostle Peter said, there is no private interpretation of Bible Scripture, for Bible prophecy didn't come by the will of man, but through holy men that spake as they were moved by The Holy Spirit. This is why The Bible is inspired by The Holy Spirit, and is not from the wisdom of this world. The five foolish virgins who thought they could BUY The Holy Spirit at market sellers thus showed they were lacking in this understanding per God's Word with given understanding by our Teacher, The Holy Spirit. There's the spare vessel of The Oil, they lacked.

It is sad to say, but those brethren who just attend a Church and put their money in the plate, never cracking open God's written Word for themselves to check out what they are being taught, can easily fall into that category like the five foolish virgins. Their error is in their trying to apply the standards of this world (with men's doctrines) to the ability of those type of church 'systems' to be able to save them. And per Lord Jesus' warning in John 10, the "hireling" preaches as a business, and will run when the wolves creep in.

 

[One 2 question]

The five foolish virgins represent deceived brethren believers.

The Oil in the lamps represents The Holy Spirit, our Teacher (See John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2).

The five foolish virgins had Oil to go with their lamps, but they didn't have a spare vessel of The Oil like the five wise virgins did. This means the five foolish virgins do... represent believing brethren on Lord Jesus Christ, and have been given The Holy Spirit (Oil), but still lacking, but what?

Some just try and say those five foolish virgins were not real believers on Christ, but that doesn't work because Lord Jesus showed they had The Oil in their lamps also. So what was lacking? In Matthew 7, Jesus gave another example of those who were believers on Him, cast out devils, and preached Him in their streets, having done many wonderful works, all in His Name, but Jesus will turn them away at His return, because they worked "iniquity".

Their being believers on Lord Jesus Christ, yet working "iniquity" suggests they followed their flesh and things of this world. 1 Corinthians 2 is a lesson on this regarding how our understanding in Christ should be, in The Spirit, and not according to the wisdom of this world. This suggests why the five foolish virgins were told to go BUY the Oil at the market, and they actually went to buy the Oil, thinking they could 'buy' The Holy Spirit. That kind of thinking is of this world, not of the wisdom of God by The Holy Spirit.

How exactly might their foolishness apply today then?

One of the things I constantly warn brethren about are the 'doctrines of men' that do not keep to God's written Word, but instead are formed by men who think they have the right to create their 'own' standards and policies for Christ's Salvation. This very thing Lord Jesus hated about the blind scribes and Pharisees who had created a system of men's traditions that did not align with God's Word. Their traditions paid more attention to the wisdom of this world instead of staying with God's Wisdom in His Word. And they created a system of politico-religious power over the Jewish people so that they couldn't become closer to God's Word for themselves to follow God's Way. That corruption among the Jews especially happened during their Babylon captivity, which produced their main doctrine for Judaism today per their Babylonian Talmud sage writings (sayings and traditions of their sages, much worldly wisdom).

What The Holy Spirit under Lord Jesus Christ does though, is prevents those doctrines and traditions of worldly wisdom that men come up with that do not align with God's Word. It's not the words doctrine or tradition that is bad, it is their creation of 'false' doctrine or false traditions that go against God's written Word.

Thus, the "iniquity" by the five foolish virgins suggests they had fallen into the traps of the things of this world, instead of staying focused on the wisdom of God given by The Holy Spirit as our Teacher and Guide, which includes staying in God's Word. And how does that work, you might ask?

As per Jeremiah 31:32-34 and Hebrews 8:10 and Hebrews 10:16, God said He would eventually give His people His covenant, and put His laws into our minds, and write them in our hearts, and we would all then 'know' Him. That is per The New Covenant Jesus Christ, and is done by The Holy Spirit. How does that work though?

When we, as disciples of Christ, start to do something which we should not, The Holy Spirit within us will warn us about it, that is, IF... we listen to The Holy Spirit as our Guide and Teacher. We can still choose NOT... to listen to The Holy Spirit, and go our own way instead, which will mean following the things of this world. The more often we listen and heed The Holy Spirit Teacher, the more often He will warn us and teach us about the difference between the things of this world, and the things of God. Get in the bad habit of NOT listening and heeding, and eventually The Holy Spirit will be 'cut off', like what happened to king Saul.

How... then, can we get loaded up in preparation to listen and heed The Holy Spirit as our Teacher? By staying in God's Word. Like Apostle Peter said, there is no private interpretation of Bible Scripture, for Bible prophecy didn't come by the will of man, but through holy men that spake as they were moved by The Holy Spirit. This is why The Bible is inspired by The Holy Spirit, and is not from the wisdom of this world. The five foolish virgins who thought they could BUY The Holy Spirit at market sellers thus showed they were lacking in this understanding per God's Word with given understanding by our Teacher, The Holy Spirit. There's the spare vessel of The Oil, they lacked.

It is sad to say, but those brethren who just attend a Church and put their money in the plate, never cracking open God's written Word for themselves to check out what they are being taught, can easily fall into that category like the five foolish virgins. Their error is in their trying to apply the standards of this world (with men's doctrines) to the ability of those type of church 'systems' to be able to save them. And per Lord Jesus' warning in John 10, the "hireling" preaches as a business, and will run when the wolves creep in.

Ok. Yes, what you just said is pretty much what has been taught for decades if not centuries.

Just to add to this I'd say that the an emphasis is on the chilling words, "away from Me I never knew you".

Mat 25:11&12 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Obviously they knew of the Bridegroom. They remained faithful to Him who they knew by remaining virgins. Yes they were prepared to wait for Him and be married to Him.

But the knowledge of Him was not enough. They didn't have a previous relationship with their desired Bridegroom and more importantly He did not have a relationship with them. Therefore He said, I never KNEW YOU.

Even the most devout faithful follower of Jesus who studies the scriptures and gains the most thorough knowledge of Jesus may hear Him say these dreaded words, I never knew you.

No matter the depth of relationship one has with their bibles and how extensive the knowledge one has of the Son of Man, it will mean nothing if there isn't a personal relationship with Him, that is, where you know Him and He KNOWS YOU.

He has sent His Oil, the Holy Spirit of Christ Himself to live in us. Do you know Him? And more critically, does HE KNOW YOU?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This is a fun topic, something I have spent a lot of time studying. I was not able to post the full content here due to character limits, but I have placed it on a blog I just started where I have more room to write.



You can skim the first half here and then freely choose whether or not to read the full post there


Forgive the long post, but to help better understand what the bible teaches about it, its best to see every side the bible presents so we can put it altogether into its proper category : mystery. This topic is actually addressed in the Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF), so I'll start with its statements on the topic, then delve into the scriptures they used to back up their summary of what the bible teaches.

The Westminster Confession is very careful to avoid the caricature of predestination as blind, mechanical determinism. Determinism is something philosophers like Alex O’Connor would stress we are subject to in this world because if everything is bound to strict laws of physics, well - gravity doesn't exactly have a choice - neither do the cells in your body. The bible on the other hand maintains that God not only predestined our end, but has also predestined our free choices that get us to the end; that is to say, he predestined the means as well as the ends.

The Westminster Confession of Faith begins its chapter on God’s decree by saying that God, “from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass. WCF 3.1 - these are the bible verses supporting.




But in the same breath, the WCF immediately adds that by this decree “neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.” In other words: Scripture teaches both that God truly foreordains all things, and that our choices are real, voluntary, and morally significant. God doesn’t “pull our strings” like a puppeteer; He ordains a world in which our freely-chosen actions are part of His wise plan.

The best statement I have heard to describe this to date is, "God foreordains the free choices of man" - Greg Bahnsen on his lecture series on the WCF.

How we arrive at this.
If we confess that all Scripture is God-breathed



and that “it is impossible for God to lie”



Then everything God has said must be true, even when we do not see how all the truths fit together. Our task is to distinguish what can be reconciled at the level of human reason from what must be left as mystery. As Dr. Greg Bahnsen often urged, we do not sit in judgment over God’s Word with an independent philosophy; we let God’s Word set the boundaries of our philosophy, even when it humbles us.

On one side:
Scripture strongly teaches foreordination and meticulous providence, including over human decisions:



Because of this, Joseph can say to his brothers, “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good”, Gen 50:20. You see here one act, two intentions, with God’s intention decisively governing the outcome.

The cross was both wickedly chosen by men and precisely what “God’s hand and [God’s] plan had predestined to take place”





On the other side:
Scripture just as strongly asserts human responsibility and real choice:



James insists that when we sin we must not blame God:



due to board constraints, I had to post the full response to my blog here:
on free will and predestination



In His Grip
c.

I agree with everything you said. Well done. People struggle with this concept. A perfect plan was made before the foundation of the world. God factored into His plan all our blunders ... and evil! The Tree of Knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL was there in the Garden before man was made. So we must realize the potential to take and eat of it was ordained. Satan was also allowed in the Garden to tempt Adam and Eve. Needless to say, it was not an ideal environment with Satan there and the potential for evil - would think ... right? But is was necessary. In order for us to know and appreciate who God is, His attributes ( what good is), we must know and be exposed to evil.
"Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil..." Gen..3:22
"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil." Isaiah 45:7
"Evil" can be translated as troubles, calamities, disaster, woes, etc.

To know love, forgiveness, mercy, joy kindness, hope, faith, patience, etc., we need to know what it is like to be without them. Notice before they ate of that tree, it wasn't just evil they weren't aware of, but the knowledge of good as well. Actually it was the second step towards making man more in the likeness of God.
Through life, from that point on, they certainly learned about good and evil as we all do through life's experiences, but much more than life's experiences were necessary, a sacrifice was needed and trillions of details filled in. The Author of our faith is sovereign. And people need to grasp what sovereignty really means. He controls all of it. I like to say the significant moments in life, not the little decisions, like clothes or food you eat, though somebody those small decisions may be more significant than we think. God protects us and guides all the way in our major decisions. That voice we hear inside, "You ought to do this or go this way" is sometimes mistaken as our own self generated ideas and so we think it was our will, when all along God persuaded us to go that way.

 

[Davy]

Ok. Yes, what you just said is pretty much what has been taught for decades if not centuries.

Just to add to this I'd say that the an emphasis is on the chilling words, "away from Me I never knew you".

Mat 25:11&12 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Obviously they knew of the Bridegroom. They remained faithful to Him who they knew by remaining virgins. Yes they were prepared to wait for Him and be married to Him.

But the knowledge of Him was not enough. They didn't have a previous relationship with their desired Bridegroom and more importantly He did not have a relationship with them. Therefore He said, I never KNEW YOU.

Even the most devout faithful follower of Jesus who studies the scriptures and gains the most thorough knowledge of Jesus may hear Him say these dreaded words, I never knew you.

No matter the depth of relationship one has with their bibles and how extensive the knowledge one has of the Son of Man, it will mean nothing if there isn't a personal relationship with Him, that is, where you know Him and He KNOWS YOU.

He has sent His Oil, the Holy Spirit of Christ Himself to live in us. Do you know Him? And more critically, does HE KNOW YOU?

By staying in His Word and obeying Him is 'how' we know Him by The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit creates in the believer that relationship with Jesus.

I realize that it's a common sermon to preach ideas like 'do you know Jesus?,' which most often are ideas about as vague as man's philosophy. Jesus told those Jews who believed on Him that if they continued in His Word, then they are His disciples indeed, and they would know the Truth, and the Truth would set them free (John 8:30-32).

John 8:30-32
30 As He spake these words, many believed on Him.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, "If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
KJV

So there again, Christ's true disciples are to be very careful about men that like to create religious sounding traditions of their own by the abuse of Bible Scripture. Want to know Jesus and have relationship with Him? Simple, stay in His Word, for how can one 'know' Jesus without listening to and heeding His Words and following His commandments?