How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You're not there yet Walter.Well when I get there I hope I'm not alone.
Jude 1:22-23
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,
Don't you agree sometimes what Jesus says cannot be taken literally?
Jesus says if your eye makes you stumble gouge it out and another time he says if you do not drink my blood or eat my flesh you have no life in you.
John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. NIV
Agree.
Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.
The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)
Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. 9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! 10 It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again. 11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.
--- COMPARE ---
Revelation 14:11 NIV
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image,
or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
When STV agrees with you you're nearly always WRONG about the Bible!
Thank you for the agreement, it's nice to be agreed with once in awhile.
Yes, Jesus spoke of Gehenna (often translated as "hell") as a place of never ending fiery judgment and destruction, but if we do the research Gehenna is now a place for concerts, and is no longer on fire.
Allow me to ask you a question please..
Since the never-ending fire of Gehenna no longer exists literally, is it reasonable to say that these words could be taken figuratively?
AI Overview
Yes, it is considered reasonable by many scholars and theologians to interpret Jesus' words about Gehenna figuratively
The physical Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) outside ancient Jerusalem has a dark history as a place of child sacrifice and a later reputation as a place where city refuse was burned. This real-world location, which is no longer a burning dump and today hosts parks, farms, and concerts, serves as a powerful metaphor in biblical texts.
Yes, it is considered reasonable by many scholars and theologians to interpret Jesus' words about Gehenna figuratively
The physical Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) outside ancient Jerusalem has a dark history as a place of child sacrifice and a later reputation as a place where city refuse was burned. This real-world location, which is no longer a burning dump and today hosts parks, farms, and concerts, serves as a powerful metaphor in biblical texts.
Last edited:
Can you provide a link? Because Benjamin Wilson changed his beliefs at different times. During the time of writing The Emphatic Diaglott, however, I believe he was a trinitarian. It certainly shows in how he worded the marginal reading of John 1:1!
There's no misquote, here. You quoted what I quoted. I stated he was a trinitarian. That's what makes his rendering of John 1:1, all the more trustworthy! He doesn't use John 1:1 in support of his own belief in the trinity, as most others do. He didn't let his leaning, color his scholarship.
Last edited:
Please look at the context, the surrounding verses. Vss.13 & 14 (in the KJV) says: "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
How can something intangible like death be burned? And if hell is fire, whats the purpose of throwing fire into fire? Fire, here, is symbolic... not literal.
As for "tormented" at Rev.20:10, the Greek word is "basanisthesontai". Please read Matthew 18:34, where a related word "basanistais" is rendered "tormentors" in some Bibles, and "jailers" in others. (It is referencing prison.) So the torment (in Revelation 20:10) refers to being "jailed" or restrained in eternal death / destruction. Such an understanding, explanation, agrees with Scriptures describing destruction (not torment), like Psalm 145:20; Daniel 7:26; 2 Peter 2:1,3,12; 2 Peter 3:7,16; Matthew 7:13; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:39; & Revelation 17:8,11.
Besides, burning people in fire - even temporarily - is in no way compatible with God's personality. (Jeremiah 7:31; see Exodus 34:6 & Nehemiah 9:17)
The saved will be in GOD's presence for eternity >> Heaven
The rest somewhere else >> not Heaven which some describe as hell or similar.
Yes, for those who are Christ's "brothers." (Matt.25:40) But Jesus also spoke of the "meek / mild tempered", who will "inherit the earth."-- (Matt.5:5) The "righteous" who will "live forever on the Earth." -- Psalm 37:29; See Revelation 21:3,4.
These meek / mild tempered / righteous ones will be living here on Earth as subjects of God's Kingdom that Jesus said to pray for it to "come" and for "Thy will ]to] be done on Earth" (Matt. 6:9,10); Christ's Brothers are those who will rule w/ Him in that Kingdom, over obedient mankind.
Last edited:
Curious as to why you would limit the number of those living on
the new earth to be only the "meek / mild tempered" referred to in the Beatitudes?
That seems like a lot of weight put on one verse. Is there other supporting scripture?
We believe in one God friend. When you make the false claim we have three gods, you discredit yourself... Yes, the Father is higher in rank. Fully agree on love of God and Jesus.
Matthew 25:46
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
If I remember those verses can also mean ruin, not a good situlation.
the only text I can think of is Job 38. I think it was before the seven days.
Then the Lord spoke to Job from a whirlwind and said,
2 “Who is this ignorant person
saying these foolish things?[a]
3 Prepare yourself for an attack!
Get ready to answer the questions I will ask you.
4 “Where were you when I made the earth?
If you are so smart, answer me.
5 And who decided how big the earth should be?
Who measured it with a measuring line?
6 What is the earth resting on?
Who put the first stone in its place
7 when the morning stars sang together
and the angelsshouted with joy?
8 “Who closed the flood gates
as the sea gushed from the womb?
9 Who covered it with clouds
and wrapped it in darkness?
10 I set the limits for the sea
and put it behind locked gates.
11 I said to the sea, ‘You can come this far, but no farther.
This is where your proud waves will stop.’
12 “Did you ever in your life command the morning to begin
or the day to dawn?
13 Did you ever tell the morning light to grab the earth
and shake those who are evil out of their hiding places?
14 The morning light makes the hills
and valleys easy to see.
When the daylight comes to the earth,
the shapes of these places stand out like the folds of a coat.
They take shape like soft clay
that is pressed with a stamp.
15 Evil people don’t like the daylight.
When it shines bright, it keeps them from doing the bad things they do.
16 “Have you ever gone to the deepest parts of the sea?
Have you ever walked on the ocean bottom?
17 Has anyone shown you the gates to the world of the dead?
Have you ever seen those gates that lead to the dark place of death?
18 Do you really understand how big the earth is?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “Where does light come from?
Where does darkness come from?
20 Can you take them back to where they belong?
Do you know how to get there?
21 Surely you know these things, since you are so old and wise.
You were alive when I made them, weren’t you?[c]
22 “Have you ever gone into the storerooms
where I keep the snow and the hail?
23 I save them there for times of trouble,
for the times of war and battle.
24 Have you ever gone to the place where the sun comes up,
where it makes the east wind blow all over the earth?[d]
25 Who dug ditches in the sky for the heavy rain?
Who made a path for the thunderstorm?
26 Who makes it rain even in desert places
where no one lives?
27 The rain gives that dry empty land all the water it needs,
and grass begins to grow.
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who produces the drops of dew?
29 Does ice have a mother?
Who gives birth to the frost?
30 That’s when the water freezes as hard as a rock.
Even the deep sea freezes over!
31 “Can you tie up the Pleiades[e]?
Can you unfasten the belt of Orion[f]?
32 Can you bring out the other constellations[g] at the right times?
Can you lead out the Bear[h] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws that control the sky?
Can you put each star in its place above the earth?
34 “Can you shout at the clouds
and command them to cover you with rain?
35 Can you give a command to the lightning?
Will it come to you and say, ‘Here we are; what do you want, sir?’
Will it go wherever you want it to go?
36 “Who makes people wise?
Who puts wisdom deep inside them?
37 Who is wise enough to count the clouds
and tip them over to pour out their rain?
38 The rain makes the dust become mud,
and the clumps of dirt stick together.
39 “Do you find food for the lions?
Do you feed their hungry babies?
40 No, they hide in their caves
or wait in the grass, ready to attack their prey.
41 Who feeds the ravens when their babies cry out to God
and wander around without food?
Where do those verses teach that like Satan & the angles, The Word was also created ?
Benjamin Wilson and the Christadelphians
I think some of you forgot this paragraph from Separate Identity: Christadelphian Connections A number of writers...
truthhistory.blogspot.com
Benjamin Wilson (biblical scholar) - Wikipedia
Benjamin Wilson and CGAF beginnings
As noted elsewhere, there were several spiritual forerunners to the Christadelphians and the CGAF. As readers here know far better than I, Bros. John Thomas and Robert Roberts played a crucial role in forging the Christadelphian community that we all know today. In the same way, Bro. Benjamin Wilson was the pioneer who framed the CGAF community as we know it.
Christadelphians will know him best as the author of The Emphatic Diaglott. In my experience, however, the knowledge of his work often exceeds that of the author himself. For instance, I have often noted CGAF connections with Wilson only to hear the reply: “Oh yes, he was a Russellite!” I can assure you he was never such. The confusion probably arises because the copyright for The Diaglott was purchased in the early 20th century by an anonymous buyer who then donated it to the Watchtower Society. The fact that they published his work is a sad, ironic twist of history — nothing more. It must be emphasized that there was never any connection between Benjamin Wilson and the group now known as the “Jehovah’s Witnesses“. By the time they had acquired the copyright, Wilson had died, and there is no evidence at all that Benjamin Wilson ever came in contact with anyone from the “Millennial Dawn Bible Students“, as the denomination was popularly referred to before 1931. (There is a much happier ending to this story, as many may know. In 2004, the Abrahamic Faith Beacon Publishing Society brought home The Emphatic Diaglott and re-published a new version of it, working in partnership with The Christadelphian Advancement Trust.)HISTORY: From Beyond Your Walls: Some Lessons from a Road Less Traveled - Tidings
As noted elsewhere, there were several spiritual forerunners to the Christadelphians and the CGAF. As readers here know far better than I, Bros. John Thomas and Robert Roberts played a crucial role in forging the Christadelphian community that we all know today. In the same way, Bro. Benjamin Wilson was the pioneer who framed the CGAF community as we know it.
Christadelphians will know him best as the author of The Emphatic Diaglott. In my experience, however, the knowledge of his work often exceeds that of the author himself. For instance, I have often noted CGAF connections with Wilson only to hear the reply: “Oh yes, he was a Russellite!” I can assure you he was never such. The confusion probably arises because the copyright for The Diaglott was purchased in the early 20th century by an anonymous buyer who then donated it to the Watchtower Society. The fact that they published his work is a sad, ironic twist of history — nothing more. It must be emphasized that there was never any connection between Benjamin Wilson and the group now known as the “Jehovah’s Witnesses“. By the time they had acquired the copyright, Wilson had died, and there is no evidence at all that Benjamin Wilson ever came in contact with anyone from the “Millennial Dawn Bible Students“, as the denomination was popularly referred to before 1931. (There is a much happier ending to this story, as many may know. In 2004, the Abrahamic Faith Beacon Publishing Society brought home The Emphatic Diaglott and re-published a new version of it, working in partnership with The Christadelphian Advancement Trust.)HISTORY: From Beyond Your Walls: Some Lessons from a Road Less Traveled - Tidings
Similar threads
