Is it possible to lose salvation?

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PinSeeker

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The church has no covenant !
God's covenant is with His people.

It is not a sign of anything other than one has already been saved!
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We are beneficiaries of the blessings of the new Covenant god made with Israel!
Because we are Israel, yes, all His true Jews, who are those in Christ, yes. And this means that His covenant is with us.

Then show where infant baptism is explicit then.
You have to take both of these Scriptures into account:

1) "He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant." (Genesis 17:12-13)

2) "In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, Who raised him from the dead." (Colossions 2:11-12)

As I have said, water baptism has replaced circumcision as the sign and seal of the covenant ~ and you at least tentatively agreed ~ but the administration of it with regard to when in a person's life it can and should be done has not changed. And of course it's no longer just for male children now but female children also.

The promise is for us and our children.
Yes. All our children, Ronald. All of them, regardless of age or cognitive ability.

But it has nothing to do with a command to baptize babies!
It was never a "command."

You have abandoned proper grammar to promote a myth..
LOL! Fair enough. Silly, but fair enough. Goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.
 

PinSeeker

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I never saID ANYTHING ABOUT INFANT REGENERATION THROUGH BAPTISM.
Well, but it is possible... it depends on which baptism we're talking about, and who ~ or Who (capital 'W') ~ is doing the baptism, right Ronald? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.
 

Christian Soldier

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Which I got... and thought I enunciated that. I agreed with what you said, but that was beside the point.


Right; previously agreed...


Well, agreed, but that's really neither here nor there. Although... God did ordain every day of our lives before there was yet any one of them, as David says of himself in Psalm 139... But let's bypass this, as it's not relevant to what we're talking about here, or at least shouldn't be...


Right... Disagree, and disagree. <smile> Neither is the case. The water baptism we administer is the outward sign of God's covenant to be the God of us and our children ~ like circumcision was in Old Testament times from the time of Abraham forward, which was performed on eight-day-old infants ~ so a sacrament in that way. And I'll say again that it is the outward sign of God's covenant, not the covenant itself, of course, and should not be... you know the better word to use here rather than 'denied' is 'withheld'... so should not be withheld from anyone in the covenant community for any reason.


Ah, so the minister thinks he is divinely inspired in the same manner as, say, Isaiah, and Amos, and Paul and Peter were in writing the parts of the Bible they wrote? <smile> Sorry, that's rhetorical; no answer needed... <smile>


That's very debatable... <smile>


Disagree. <smile> Easy to say, but not so easy to back up with Scripture, which, of course, is God's Word. You might point to what Paul says in Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12 to back this up, but... Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so you can speak to this if you want.


Ah, no, it is a sacrament ~ it is a visible reminder of God's promise to be the God of those whom He calls. And in the case of infants, the parents are calling in faith on God's promise to do just that and at the time of His choosing that He will work in that child's heart ~ maybe even before the child has the ability to make a credible profession of faith. It is an outward sign, not only to the parents but even for all who witness it, of God's promise to save. And the prayer for the infant is that he or she would never know a day when he or she doesn't know Jesus as his or her Savior and Brother and Friend.


Yeah, again, disagree. Points 1, 3, and 5 in particular. Again, it's all due to a misunderstanding, really, of what baptism is.

Ah, yes, on point number 4 there, maybe you didn't finish the citation... verses 3 through something in Romans 6, which would include verse 4... You might notice that, while Paul does say, "we were buried with Jesus by baptism into death," but he says nothing there (or anywhere) about having been believers when they were, and of course says nothing about believing being a prerequisite to being buried with Jesus by baptism into death.

And if you look at Colossians 2:11-12 ~ where, in verse 12, he says the same thing, that we were "buried with Him in baptism" ~ you should be able to see there that baptism, in the times of the early church, has replaced the old sign and seal of the covenant, circumcision, which was administered by God's ordinance ~ which is an authoritative order; a decree ~ given to Abraham in Genesis 17:9-10, where God says, "As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised... He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised."

So we can... and should... have our children even as early as possible buried with Jesus in baptism. And in doing so, we trust that God, in His time, at His appointment, by His Holy Spirit, baptize with the Holy Spirit and therein give that person, at whatever age that happens, because it might be decades later, new life in the Spirit, and he or she would then walk in that newness of life.


It's a sacrament, just as was the former sacrament, circumcision, which was instituted as the sign and seal of God's covenant by ordinance, God's authoritative order, along with the sacrament of communion, or the Lord's supper.


Agreed. Great! Except... well, it's a sign for all. But yes, baptism has replaced circumcision, but it's institution and proper administration is unchanged. Now, how old were children who were circumcised? You will see in Genesis 17:12... <smile> If you compare what God says to Abraham in Genesis 17 to what Peter says in Acts 2, you will see that what they say about the sign/seal of the covenant is very, very similar.


That's also debatable. Jesus was baptized in an area of the Jordan river by John where the water would have only come up to His ankles... <smile> And there is much in the Bible about sprinkling... <smile> Baptism is rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person. But the mode of baptism is not of great importance; I was baptized myself by full immersion, and there's nothing really wrong with that. But... you might agree that Ezekiel 36:25-27 is a picture of how we are saved by God, even of our new birth by the Spirit, and if so, I would agree, but notice verse 25 there, where God says of His baptism of us in our regeneration, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you." So again I say, baptism is rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water.


This I agree with; yes, we welcome someone as a communing member when the person makes a credible profession of faith. It's as much an admonition to the church as to the person, because unless the person actually comes to Christ first, the sacrament of communion will do that person no good, even bringing condemnation upon that person, and if we allow it then we ourselves bear a responsibility here.

Grace and peace to you.
I don't think we're going to agree on any of these points, we hold to very different interpretations of scripture. I was going to address every one of the verses you referred to above, but I think it would amount to a vein, and unprofitable dispute.

I notice you're comparing some of the Old Covenant (redundant) requirements and treating them as being equally important as the the sacraments and ordinances we find in the New Covenant.

Some Christians Denominations mix the old and new covenants, which means they preach a "works + grace" version of the gospel. But this version is not supported by any scriptures, we know that the old sacrificial system was ended by Christ. This is why the Lord Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple, it was Gods will to put an end to Judaism and usher in Christianity instead.

If God had the Temple destroyed and ended Judaism, why do some Christians try to mix Judaism and Christianity, when they are diametrically opposed. From memory I think Jews have to keep around 510 laws, in order to earn salvation. But Orthodox Christianity, teaches that we don't need to keep any laws to be saved, because our Redeemer kept them all and imputed His righteousness onto those the Father elected before he created the world.

In conclusion the ordinance of baptism in nothing in and of itself, it's all about what it symbolises. So dunking an infant means nothing, if the infant has not been regenerated and received the gifts of grace and faith and repentance. All these are gifts and they can't be earned by anything anyone does.

The act of pouring water on a baby's head doesn't achieve anything, except to make to poor child cry. God is not pleased with outward religious rituals, He looks the the heart (or the motives) of the person. My family are all Roman Catholics, and they all believe that the wine and the Eucharist are literally transformed into the flesh and blood of the Lord Jesus. ,They call it "transubstantiation".
It breaks my heart to see how deceived they are by man made rituals and religious practices, which don't bring any glory to the Lord.
 

GodsGrace

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Show a verse from Scripture that says babies should be baptized.

Acts 2 with all your children was not about baptism. History has shown that households were those considered adult. In a jewish home that was after the bar or bat mitzvah. I already posted the historical proof. Look it upi yourself and see. Look at the first century mindset apart from your 21st century thinking.
1. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
2. Entire households were baptized. Acts.
3. There is a SIGN to every Covenant.
The the Abrahamic Covenant is was circumcision.
Even foreigners were welcomed, but they had to receive the sign.
4. In the New Covenant, the sign is baptism.

5. Why do we Protestants HATE church history?
In the early church infants were baptized.

You could find out about it,,
 

GodsGrace

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Where did I claim/state/imply that INFANT BAPTISM is a salvation requirement ?
""so how does this glorify god?""
The same way that any public demonstration of faith shows a belief in Christ :)
Infants are baptized for different reasons these days.
In the beginning it was to give them the grace that adults were also receiving.
We know this by the writings of the ECFs --- which some refuse to read.

Infant baptism does NOT mean that infant will be saved.
He MUST, at some point in his life, accept the baptism and put the Holy Spirit to proper use.

If infants were automatically saved....
all Catholics would be saved...
all Lutherans....
and some Baptists and others I don't know about...
oh and the Orthodox. (captial O).
 

GodsGrace

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I don't think we're going to agree on any of these points, we hold to very different interpretations of scripture. I was going to address every one of the verses you referred to above, but I think it would amount to a vein, and unprofitable dispute.

I notice you're comparing some of the Old Covenant (redundant) requirements and treating them as being equally important as the the sacraments and ordinances we find in the New Covenant.

Some Christians Denominations mix the old and new covenants, which means they preach a "works + grace" version of the gospel. But this version is not supported by any scriptures, we know that the old sacrificial system was ended by Christ. This is why the Lord Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple, it was Gods will to put an end to Judaism and usher in Christianity instead.

If God had the Temple destroyed and ended Judaism, why do some Christians try to mix Judaism and Christianity, when they are diametrically opposed. From memory I think Jews have to keep around 510 laws, in order to earn salvation. But Orthodox Christianity, teaches that we don't need to keep any laws to be saved, because our Redeemer kept them all and imputed His righteousness onto those the Father elected before he created the world.

In conclusion the ordinance of baptism in nothing in and of itself, it's all about what it symbolises.

Baptism may be NOTHING to YOU....
But the Apostles taught that it was necessary.

And JESUS said we cannot see the Kingdom unless we are baptized.
John 3:3,5

Most likely the water is the water of baptism.

And even if not....
JESUS instructed the Apostles to baptize.

Must have been important if Jesus said to do it.
So dunking an infant means nothing, if the infant has not been regenerated and received the gifts of grace and faith and repentance. All these are gifts and they can't be earned by anything anyone does.

The act of pouring water on a baby's head doesn't achieve anything, except to make to poor child cry. God is not pleased with outward religious rituals, He looks the the heart (or the motives) of the person. My family are all Roman Catholics, and they all believe that the wine and the Eucharist are literally transformed into the flesh and blood of the Lord Jesus. ,They call it "transubstantiation".
It breaks my heart to see how deceived they are by man made rituals and religious practices, which don't bring any glory to the Lord.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You have to take both of these Scriptures into account:

1) "He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant." (Genesis 17:12-13)

2) "In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, Who raised him from the dead." (Colossions 2:11-12)

As I have said, water baptism has replaced circumcision as the sign and seal of the covenant ~ and you at least tentatively agreed ~ but the administration of it with regard to when in a person's life it can and should be done has not changed. And of course it's no longer just for male children now but female children also.
No we are not Israel. We are the body of christ.

Eph. 2:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Romans 11

King James Version

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Saved Israel is Israel of God. They are one body with saved Gentiles. Gentiles are not Israel in the church.

Baptism replaces nothing. It is an ordinance of the church. The church has no covenant with god but are mere beneficiaries of the New Covenant God made with Israel as Paulo declared in romans 11.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Well, but it is possible... it depends on which baptism we're talking about, and who ~ or Who (capital 'W') ~ is doing the baptism, right Ronald? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.
Babies need to trust in teh death and resurrection of Jesus in order to be saved along with the rest of mankind. Baptism saves no -one except the Baptism in the Spirit, which occurs at the moment of salvation.
 

GodsGrace

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No we are not Israel. We are the body of christ.

Eph. 2:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Romans 11​

King James Version​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Saved Israel is Israel of God. They are one body with saved Gentiles. Gentiles are not Israel in the church.

Baptism replaces nothing. It is an ordinance of the church. The church has no covenant with god but are mere beneficiaries of the New Covenant God made with Israel as Paulo declared in romans 11.
How is baptism an ORDINANCE of the church
IF
JESUS said to do it???


Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
 

PinSeeker

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I don't think we're going to agree on any of these points, we hold to very different interpretations of scripture.
Obviously so, sure. Although... at least to a large extent, I don't think it's an interpretation problem. <smile>

I was going to address every one of the verses you referred to above, but I think it would amount to a vein, and unprofitable dispute.
Vain (not "vein"... there are no blood vessels involved here...). <smile> But yeah, maybe so, in the sense of, well, neither one of us being able to reconfigure the other's thoughts on these subjects. But discussing the things of God and His Word is never vain or unprofitable, which I'm sure we agree on.

I notice you're comparing some of the Old Covenant (redundant) requirements and treating them as being equally important as the the sacraments and ordinances we find in the New Covenant.
Yeah, that's one of the issues here, for sure. Not understanding the continuity of Scripture and the oneness of God's Counsel is an issue for sure.

Some Christians Denominations mix the old and new covenants, which means they preach a "works + grace" version of the gospel.
If by saying that you're insinuating that I "preach a 'works + grace' version of the Gospel, that's not true of me at all. And building on what I said above about the continuity of Scripture, I'm... pretty sure you and I would disagree starkly regarding where the break is between works and grace...

But this version is not supported by any scriptures, we know that the old sacrificial system was ended by Christ.
Sure. Agreed.

This is why the Lord Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple, it was Gods will to put an end to Judaism and usher in Christianity instead.
Hmmm... well, in saying, "destroy the temple of God" (Matthew 26:61) and/or “Destroy this temple...” (John 2:19), He was speaking of Himself, His own body, which John clarifies in John 2:21. I think you know that. So it wasn't really about putting an end to Judaism. I mean, Jesus Himself was very Jewish, and He's the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). And this gets back to the continuity of Scripture... from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21...

If God had the Temple destroyed and ended Judaism...
He didn't. As far as I know, Jesus lives... <smile>

, why do some Christians try to mix Judaism and Christianity, when they are diametrically opposed. From memory I think Jews have to keep around 510 laws, in order to earn salvation. But Orthodox Christianity, teaches that we don't need to keep any laws to be saved, because our Redeemer kept them all and imputed His righteousness onto those the Father elected before he created the world.
So we're free to break them all? <smile> Relax... I know you don't believe that. <smile> But in the Old Testament, there were different kinds of laws, which... I think you know. We are not bound to the ceremonial or civil laws of those days, but the moral still stands. Jesus said, as you know, I'm sure, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” So, from that we know at the very least that not all of the law of the Old Testament is obsolete or defunct, but still active, applicable, and binding today... and always will be. Now we have the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), but it takes from what was our guardian, or tutor, until Christ came (Galatians 3:24-25). But when Christ came, He was the real manifestation of the Law... the law was made manifest in Him. Which is what we read in Hebrews 7:18-19 ~ "For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God."

But back just briefly to the idea of God "ending Judaism"... We now know what true Judaism is, in the sense that we ~ all who have been born again of the Spirit, and so all who are in Christ, are true Jews of God (Romans 2:28-29), His elect and therefore of the Israel of God, His household, all whom He has called, Jew and Gentile alike (Romans 9-11). And this was always really the case... it didn't just come to be that way in New Testament times. And now we're back to the continuity of Scripture again... <smile>

In conclusion the ordinance of baptism...
Sacrament. Like the Lord's Supper (Communion).

in nothing in and of itself,
Well, not salvific; water baptism does not itself save, or confer salvation on the "baptizee." If that's what you mean, I agree. But "nothing in and of itself" I would disagree with strongly. God gave it to us as a sign and seal, again, like circumcision in Old Testament times... replacing it as the sign and seal, as I said, in New Testament times. But it serves the same purpose. And it's absolutely... something... <smile> ...and surely not "nothing."

...if the infant has not been regenerated and received the gifts of grace and faith and repentance.
We cannot see the heart as God does. So really, CS, we cannot know for sure if one is regenerate or has really been the recipient of God's mercy and compassion or not. What we can be sure of, though, is that, God, if it is His will to do so, will make it so at the time of His choosing, at His appointment. And this is what the parents of infants are doing at the time of their child's baptism ~ trusting in God's promise, by faith, that He will work through them and draw that child unto Himself, trusting in the Lord for the infant's salvation as they do their own. This is why infant baptism is important and we should have the infant baptized as early in their lives as possible.

All these are gifts and they can't be earned by anything anyone does.
Sure.

The act of pouring water on a baby's head doesn't achieve anything, except to make to poor child cry.
Well, doesn't achieve their salvation; agreed. Or anyone else's, of course. But I wouldn't say it "doesn't achieve anything." <smile> And I wouldn't say it "achieves nothing" for ~ not just the infant but the parents and the people witnessing it. <smile> Because it certainly does.

God is not pleased with outward religious rituals,
One might wonder, then, why He instituted circumcision and later baptism, then... <smile> And any other covenant, like marriage, for that matter... <smile>

He looks at the heart...
Sure. Absolutely.

My family are all Roman Catholics, and they all believe that the wine and the Eucharist are literally transformed into the flesh and blood of the Lord Jesus. ,They call it "transubstantiation". It breaks my heart to see how deceived they are by man made rituals and religious practices, which don't bring any glory to the Lord.
Well, I agree with you regarding transubstantiation (yes, I know what it is). But communion (or the eucharist) is not a man-made ritual or practice. Jesus Himself instituted it. By it we remember His sacrifice on our behalf, acknowledging Him as our Savior and Redeemer, and we proclaim His death until He comes again, and that's... I'm sure you will agree... very, very important. And formative. And we do this with all of our Christian brothers and sisters, which is also very important and formative.

Grace and peace to you.
 

PinSeeker

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No we are not Israel. We are the body of christ.
We are. Both. The two are one and the same. We, as followers of Christ, are God's elect, and thus in Christ and members of God's Israel, His household.

Eph. 2:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Romans 11​

King James Version​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Saved Israel is Israel of God. They are one body with saved Gentiles. Gentiles are not Israel in the church.

Baptism replaces nothing. It is an ordinance of the church. The church has no covenant with god but are mere beneficiaries of the New Covenant God made with Israel as Paulo declared in romans 11.
From this I would point out two things:

Well, not stopping with Ephesians 2:17, but carrying that passage to its conclusion: "...one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you..." ~ Gentiles ~ "...are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, ~ God's Israel ~ "...built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

And to this I would just add what this same Paul, who wrote this letter to the Ephesians, wrote to the Romans in Romans 2:28-29 ~ "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." As such, he then writes in Romans 9:6-8, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God..." ~ so therefore not of God's household, not of His Israel ~ "...but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

And I would go back to Romans 11 and cite what Paul says there in verses 25 and 26: "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

Babies need to trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus in order to be saved along with the rest of mankind.
Agreed. And in infant baptism, the parents are trusting in God for the infant's salvation just as they do their own, that, as I said to @Christian Soldier above. Again, baptism is not to be withheld for any reason or at any stage of development for anyone.

Baptism saves no -one except the Baptism in the Spirit, which occurs at the moment of salvation.
I've said exactly this. I have never even insinuated that our water baptism saves or confers salvation upon a person, and have on multiple occasions explicitly stated that it does not. But it is a call on, in the case of infant baptism by the parents, God's promise to work through the parents and call him or her to Himself and thus confer salvation upon him or her, at the time of His choosing. These are the vows that the parents take in having their baby baptized in our church (all Scripturally supported, of course):

1. Do you acknowledge your child’s need of the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ, and the renewing grace of the Holy Spirit?
2. Do you claim God’s covenant promises in (his or her) behalf, and do you look in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ for (his or her) salvation, as you do for your own?
3. Do you now unreservedly dedicate your child to God, and promise, in humble reliance upon divine grace, that you will endeavor to set before (him or her) a godly example, that you will pray with and for (him or her), that you will teach (him) the doctrines of our holy religion, and that you will strive, by all the means of God’s appointment, to bring (him or her) up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord?

And the congregation then corporately takes this vow:

1. Do you as a congregation undertake the responsibility of assisting the parents in the Christian nurture of this child?

Grace and peace to you.
 

rvmb

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Infants are baptized for different reasons these days.
In the beginning it was to give them the grace that adults were also receiving.
We know this by the writings of the ECFs --- which some refuse to read.

Infant baptism does NOT mean that infant will be saved.
He MUST, at some point in his life, accept the baptism and put the Holy Spirit to proper use.

If infants were automatically saved....
all Catholics would be saved...
all Lutherans....
and some Baptists and others I don't know about...
oh and the Orthodox. (captial O).
I did not claim baby saved.
My claim was baby baptism is a way of bringing glory (positive attention) to GOD.
Eg Does giving out Bible Flyers save a person or is it another way of bringing glory to GOD ?
 
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GodsGrace

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I did not claim baby saved.
My claim was baby baptism is a way of bringing glory (positive attention) to GOD.
Eg Does giving out Bible Flyers save a person or is it another way of bringing glory to GOD ?
Interesting question.
I just hope you don't equate giving our tracs with baptism !

However, yes, I do believe that anything we do that brings a positive attention will give God glory.
Will it save them (oops, I think you are equating the two)
Not unless they:

1. Believe in God.
2. Obey Him.
 

Christian Soldier

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Baptism may be NOTHING to YOU....
But the Apostles taught that it was necessary.

And JESUS said we cannot see the Kingdom unless we are baptized.
John 3:3,5

Most likely the water is the water of baptism.

And even if not....
JESUS instructed the Apostles to baptize.

Must have been important if Jesus said to do it.
Who said "baptism is nothing". You should get your facts right before you make false claims and false accusations. Falsely accusing people, seems to come naturally to you.
 

rvmb

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Interesting question.
I just hope you don't equate giving our tracs with baptism !

However, yes, I do believe that anything we do that brings a positive attention will give God glory.
Will it save them (oops, I think you are equating the two)
Not unless they:

1. Believe in God.
2. Obey Him.
I believe that giving tracs & baby baptism are ways of bringing glory to GOD.
To be saved/justified/sealed Paul teaches Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
To be saved, what other conditions does Paul teach are required in addition to Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 ?
 

GodsGrace

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Who said "baptism is nothing". You should get your facts right before you make false claims and false accusations. Falsely accusing people, seems to come naturally to you.


YOU stated this in post no. 4465:

"In conclusion the ordinance of baptism in nothing in and of itself, it's all about what it symbolises."


Sounds like you're saying that baptism is only valid for what it symbolises...
which is a common belief among some Protestant denominations.

You also stated this.

"The act of pouring water on a baby's head doesn't achieve anything, except to make to poor child cry. God is not pleased with outward religious rituals, "


You see, the bottom line is this: Either baptism means something or it's a waste of everyone's time.
We don't need rituals.
We don't need an outside act/proof of an inner condition. God knows our heart, as you've stated.

We need to believe what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
Baptism washes away sin.
Baptism allows the Holy Spirit to indwell within us.
 

GodsGrace

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I believe that giving tracs & baby baptism are ways of bringing glory to GOD.
To be saved/justified/sealed Paul teaches Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
To be saved, what other conditions does Paul teach are required in addition to Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 ?
OK
Giving out tracs gives glory to God.
Baptism gives glory to God PLUS indwells us with the Holy Spirit.

You're doing what most do...citing scripture instead of posting it.
So I don't know what your verses say - I don't have a photographic memory....

But again, here is what is needed for salvation:

1. Belief in God.
2. Obedience to God.
 

Christian Soldier

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Obviously so, sure. Although... at least to a large extent, I don't think it's an interpretation problem. <smile>


Vain (not "vein"... there are no blood vessels involved here...). <smile> But yeah, maybe so, in the sense of, well, neither one of us being able to reconfigure the other's thoughts on these subjects. But discussing the things of God and His Word is never vain or unprofitable, which I'm sure we agree on.


Yeah, that's one of the issues here, for sure. Not understanding the continuity of Scripture and the oneness of God's Counsel is an issue for sure.


If by saying that you're insinuating that I "preach a 'works + grace' version of the Gospel, that's not true of me at all. And building on what I said above about the continuity of Scripture, I'm... pretty sure you and I would disagree starkly regarding where the break is between works and grace...


Sure. Agreed.


Hmmm... well, in saying, "destroy the temple of God" (Matthew 26:61) and/or “Destroy this temple...” (John 2:19), He was speaking of Himself, His own body, which John clarifies in John 2:21. I think you know that. So it wasn't really about putting an end to Judaism. I mean, Jesus Himself was very Jewish, and He's the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). And this gets back to the continuity of Scripture... from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21...


He didn't. As far as I know, Jesus lives... <smile>


So we're free to break them all? <smile> Relax... I know you don't believe that. <smile> But in the Old Testament, there were different kinds of laws, which... I think you know. We are not bound to the ceremonial or civil laws of those days, but the moral still stands. Jesus said, as you know, I'm sure, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” So, from that we know at the very least that not all of the law of the Old Testament is obsolete or defunct, but still active, applicable, and binding today... and always will be. Now we have the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), but it takes from what was our guardian, or tutor, until Christ came (Galatians 3:24-25). But when Christ came, He was the real manifestation of the Law... the law was made manifest in Him. Which is what we read in Hebrews 7:18-19 ~ "For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God."

But back just briefly to the idea of God "ending Judaism"... We now know what true Judaism is, in the sense that we ~ all who have been born again of the Spirit, and so all who are in Christ, are true Jews of God (Romans 2:28-29), His elect and therefore of the Israel of God, His household, all whom He has called, Jew and Gentile alike (Romans 9-11). And this was always really the case... it didn't just come to be that way in New Testament times. And now we're back to the continuity of Scripture again... <smile>


Sacrament. Like the Lord's Supper (Communion).


Well, not salvific; water baptism does not itself save, or confer salvation on the "baptizee." If that's what you mean, I agree. But "nothing in and of itself" I would disagree with strongly. God gave it to us as a sign and seal, again, like circumcision in Old Testament times... replacing it as the sign and seal, as I said, in New Testament times. But it serves the same purpose. And it's absolutely... something... <smile> ...and surely not "nothing."


We cannot see the heart as God does. So really, CS, we cannot know for sure if one is regenerate or has really been the recipient of God's mercy and compassion or not. What we can be sure of, though, is that, God, if it is His will to do so, will make it so at the time of His choosing, at His appointment. And this is what the parents of infants are doing at the time of their child's baptism ~ trusting in God's promise, by faith, that He will work through them and draw that child unto Himself, trusting in the Lord for the infant's salvation as they do their own. This is why infant baptism is important and we should have the infant baptized as early in their lives as possible.


Sure.


Well, doesn't achieve their salvation; agreed. Or anyone else's, of course. But I wouldn't say it "doesn't achieve anything." <smile> And I wouldn't say it "achieves nothing" for ~ not just the infant but the parents and the people witnessing it. <smile> Because it certainly does.


One might wonder, then, why He instituted circumcision and later baptism, then... <smile> And any other covenant, like marriage, for that matter... <smile>


Sure. Absolutely.


Well, I agree with you regarding transubstantiation (yes, I know what it is). But communion (or the eucharist) is not a man-made ritual or practice. Jesus Himself instituted it. By it we remember His sacrifice on our behalf, acknowledging Him as our Savior and Redeemer, and we proclaim His death until He comes again, and that's... I'm sure you will agree... very, very important. And formative. And we do this with all of our Christian brothers and sisters, which is also very important and formative.

Grace and peace to you.
Infant baptism, still doesn't make any sense. Your support of it, is not based on any scripture. We don't find a single example of an infant being baptised and the Lord Jesus never asked His disciples to baptise children. So I must conclude that your view is based on your private unbiblical opinion.

You have bundled the all of the various contexts, in which the bible speaks of the Temple and tried twist them and force them to fit a single context.
You can't claim that the physical brick and mortar building and Christ's body are the same thing. So your opinion is dead wrong because if you were right that would mean that God the Father destroyed the body of Christ forever, as He did to the Jewish temple which He deliberately destroyed, to never reinstate the Jewish temple again.

I'm not sure what you motive is for attempting to breath life back into something which God completely destroyed forever. He even said that the burnt offerings of the Jews was a stench in His nostrils, so just accept that it's dead and it's never going to return.

I'm sure you're aware of the fact as I have previously mentioned, those under the old (redundant) dead covenant were saved by continuously sacrificing animals and keeping the law of Moses. But the Lord Jesus put an end to the old covenant and ushered in the new covenant.

There have only been two covenants, the old covenant was the covenant of "the law" and the new covenant is "the covenant of grace" We don't need to keep any law or commandment to be saved, and we are not saved by "race" but we are saved by "grace" and that not of ourselves, lest anyone boast.

Here are a few verses of scripture to help you understand this truth.

Acts 15:1, 5: "But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved'... But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, saying, 'It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.'" (This led to the Council at Jerusalem, which determined that the law was not necessary for Gentile salvation).

Galatians 15:1, 5: Paul recounts his confrontation with Peter, who had stopped eating with Gentiles due to pressure from "the circumcision party," an action that implied keeping Jewish customs was necessary for true Christian fellowship and justification.

We call those who preach the false "works + grace" hybrid version of the gospel (Judaizers). Their version of the gospel is an abomination in the sight of God.

 

rvmb

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OK
Giving out tracs gives glory to God.
Baptism gives glory to God PLUS indwells us with the Holy Spirit.

You're doing what most do...citing scripture instead of posting it.
So I don't know what your verses say - I don't have a photographic memory....

But again, here is what is needed for salvation:

1. Belief in God.
2. Obedience to God.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
**
What else does Paul teach is required of a believer to be saved/justified/sealed ?
I'm unaware of anything.